Ruger .44 Special Flattop Blackhawk

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Bazoo said:
My throats measure .4312-.4325 best I recall (I have it written down). I'm loading .431 sized. I have been getting leading with mine but not severe.

I loaded two boxes, both RCBS 44-245-swc. One from ww+Sn alloy and the other from 50/50 ww/pb+Sn alloy. Both with bullseye powder. I can't remember without looking at my notes but it was around 5 grains. I cleaned my gun well and fired one box. Minor leading. Repeat the other box with same results.

Then I switched to the 44-250-k from 50/50 alloy and using unique. 5.5 was some leading and it increased as I went to the skeeter load. So I'm thinking my bullets ain't hard enough for those pressures and burn rate.

Lube was 50/50 from white label throughout.

That's as far as I've gotten with my plain based testing.

The first results were promising.

I do have a mild constriction felt when slugging. I'm reluctant to fire lap or otherwise tinker on it until I've exhausted all my other options.
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I just assume I will need to firelap any new Ruger SA and am almost never wrong. My Bisley Flattop in .44 Special came with uniform .430+ throats and a .429 bore, except for the thread choke. It leaded quite a bit prior to lapping, but afterwards I haven't gotten it to lead with any load - including the Skeeter load with a 1-16 bullet.
 
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.38 Special said:
I just assume I will need to firelap any new Ruger SA and am almost never wrong. My Bisley Flattop in .44 Special came with uniform .430+ throats and a .429 bore, except for the thread choke. It leaded quite a bit prior to lapping, but afterwards I haven't gotten it to lead with any load - including the Skeeter load with a 1-16 bullet.
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Thread Choke is said to be common with the Ruger revolvers. My SBH is fine and is old enough that the internet was new and information was not as available as today. Otherwise I might have lapped it as it took quite a bit of experimenting with loads to keep it from leading. Not knowing any better I loaded 240 Grain commercial hard cast 18 brinnel beveled base over 10 grains of Unique. It was terrible. As a 7 1/2 inch gun originally the factory sights were never right with moderate or target loads. Another known issue at the time, but not to me! I hade it cut to 5” with a target crown and a Weigand front sight installed buy a talented local Smith. It has been perfect since. This gun we will see. I have read quite a lot on the new Lipsey’s Bisleys having thread choke issues. Not so much about the original 2009 run as I assume this new gun is one of. Will have to see and take appropriate action as necessary. The load development end is done, all of my .44’s like them and do not lead (more than what is to be expected). I have never fire lapped a revolver. Doesn’t seem too hard, but it is a do it right or else situation.
 
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I didn’t have any thread choke problems with mine but my 357 gp100 needs a good lapping. When I was trying to figure out if mine was part of the lipseys run I found a post on the ruger forum from a person that works at lipseys according to him the last of the 09’ run from ruger come in December 09’ with 520-20044 as the last serial number entered.
https://rugerforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=214572&start=15
Second to last post.
 
Bazoo said:
View attachment 1058949
I really like mine. I carry it most of th time. In a simply rugged sourdough holster. It's the most comfortable holster/gun combo I've ever worn.

I didn't like the smaller grip frame so I replaced it with my preferred xr3-red frame. I also wanted the two tone look right from the start. I fell in live it after seeing and old model two tone in a John Taffin article.
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Mine is 4 5/8. Went back for a new cylinder. Gunsmith did throats, forcing cone, and action job. Shoots really well. I know what you mean about the small grip. I have small hands and can get just enough purchase with my pinky to make it work. However, on my 41 Magnum Flat Top 6 1/2" I had it converted to Bisley and love it.
 
wcwhitey said:
Went in a LGS road trip today with my son to see what the stores had in the used counter. A few Model 10’s at $395 (be glad to give the contact). Out of the 4 I looked at 3 were super tight, all were NYPD turn ins with much holster wear. Anyhow, the point of this post.

At one of my favorites looking at a Old Police PositiveI looked at the corner of the new cabinet and spotted a Ruger Flattop Blackhawk 5 1/2. I asked the caliber and the counter fellow said he could not tell the tag was worn out. I asked to look at it, spotted the price and read the barrel. Once I saw .44 Special I said SOLD. You see this was a NOS Blackhawk shipped in 2009 that still had 2009 pricing at $529.00. Big score happy as a clam. Not the first .44 from this store that I scored on. Apparently in my region the .44 Special does not get much respect.

Sorry no pictures, will pick it up on Tuesday.
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NICE! I think it's interesting that you said 44 special doesn't get much respect. Neither does the 41 Magnum or 38 Special. the 44 and 38's are exceptional calibers and been used for many many decades effectively. I would defiantly not hesitate to pick up a Blackhawk in 44 Special. Very versatile caliber for reloads ;)
 
RealGun
Mine is 4 5/8. Went back for a new cylinder. Gunsmith did throats, forcing cone, and action job. Shoots really well. I know what you mean about the small grip. I have small hands and can get just enough purchase with my pinky to make it work.
Click to expand...

Same here...With my smaller size hand I can comfortably get three fingers on the grip. Trying to tuck my pinky finger under the grip is too much of a stretch for me.
 
.38 Special said:
I just assume I will need to firelap any new Ruger SA and am almost never wrong. My Bisley Flattop in .44 Special came with uniform .430+ throats and a .429 bore, except for the thread choke. It leaded quite a bit prior to lapping, but afterwards I haven't gotten it to lead with any load - including the Skeeter load with a 1-16 bullet.
Click to expand...
I firelapped a sbh and didn't get it to stop leading with plain based bullets. Ruger eventually replaced it and I sold it and got the flattop.

I also have firelapped my gp100 357. It leads still except with a full pressure load using a plain based bullet nonetheless. It even leads with gas checked bullets at 38 pressures.

So the point is, I've tried it with less than stellar results. I've read Fermin Garcias article, bear tooth bullets guide , and jacketed performance from cast by veral smith, and fryxells book. So I'm not completely ignorant of the subject. I don't understand why my attempt save failed.

With both guns I lapped, I tried everything I know to do both before and after lapping. Sizing to the throats, and everywhere from a touch larger, to groove diameter. I tried several different lubes, and ww alloy and various mixes of ww/pb. Several bullet shapes. I recut the forcing cone on the gp100 to 11 degrees but not the sbh. Course I tried various powders.

The point, there must be something I'm missing or a trick I'm not doing. So could you offer your technique?
 
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Barbaroja said:
I didn’t have any thread choke problems with mine but my 357 gp100 needs a good lapping. When I was trying to figure out if mine was part of the lipseys run I found a post on the ruger forum from a person that works at lipseys according to him the last of the 09’ run from ruger come in December 09’ with 520-20044 as the last serial number entered.
https://rugerforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=214572&start=15
Second to last post.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info, shipped in 2009 Ser#520-189XX. Ding ding ding a Lipsey’s!
 
Most Ruger .44 calibers that I've encountered have oversized throats (.433"+)​

I own six of them and have never run across throats that large. 4 Specials and a pair of Magnums. I size all of mine to 0.430-0.431" and have no problem with leading either. My bullets are Lyman's 429421, 429215, 429244, MP 432-265, and the RCBS 44-250 Keith. Alloy is straight wheel weights with a pinch of tin; lube is 50-50 alox to beeswax, and my standard load is Skelton's 7.5 gr of Unique (or 6.5 gr of Win 231 for the same vel.) with all of the above...w/o gas checks. This is a 950 fps load from my 4-5/8" bbls.

Hard alloys are not necessary up to ~1100 fps in my use, but the sizing dia. must fit the cylinder throats with a light finger push fit. Could be you've got some barrel thread choking....ie. the dia there, just in front of the forcing cone is slightly smaller than the GROOVE dia. If so, lapping will probably cure it. For a good explanation, search for Ross Seyfried's excellent article on the new Ruger FT .44 Special Blackhawk.

Another alternative is to cast Lyman's 429215GC (~225 gr) and/or Lyman's 429244GC (~255+ gr). The gas check will cut the leading to Zero but add's expense. I anneal my gas checks for a better crimp on fit, BTW. I pot full of them can be annealed with a Berns-a-matic torch in about 2 minutes. Heat 'em up cherry red and let them air cool. Done deal.

Here's an early 25 yard group with the blued 4-5/8" bbl'd .44 Special, and a 2nd pic with its SS stable mate (equally accurate). The load was the Skelton prescription listed above with the RCBS or MP bullet.

YMMv, Rod

Ruger-44-SS-B-W-Grips.jpg

Dave_44_Tgt_Pic.jpg ​
 
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Mine is a 2010 model 4 5/8” Bisley and I really do enjoy it and shot everything from the Keith load on down but have found that with the warmer loads it cracks my knuckle way too hard so it only goes to tier 2 loads now. Here are my 2 favorite revolvers the flattop 44 special and a BFR not in 44 special. On a really good day at 100 yards they make me feel good. DC730B87-8ECB-4B99-89A1-2234293126D6.png 4BEBB0F0-2ED9-48CB-84CC-604CE9447305.png
 
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Excellent fighting pistols. The big .44 slugs will knock down even a determined attacker, and the proper indexing of the flat tops makes for a smooth and quick reload in the extremely unlikely event six .44s wont handle the job.
 
Bazoo said:
I firelapped a sbh and didn't get it to stop leading with plain based bullets. Ruger eventually replaced it and I sold it and got the flattop.

I also have firelapped my gp100 357. It leads still except with a full pressure load using a plain based bullet nonetheless. It even leads with gas checked bullets at 38 pressures.

So the point is, I've tried it with less than stellar results. I've read Fermin Garcias article, bear tooth bullets guide , and jacketed performance from cast by veral smith, and fryxells book. So I'm not completely ignorant of the subject. I don't understand why my attempt save failed.

With both guns I lapped, I tried everything I know to do both before and after lapping. Sizing to the throats, and everywhere from a touch larger, to groove diameter. I tried several different lubes, and ww alloy and various mixes of ww/pb. Several bullet shapes. I recut the forcing cone on the gp100 to 11 degrees but not the sbh. Course I tried various powders.

The point, there must be something I'm missing or a trick I'm not doing. So could you offer your technique?
Click to expand...

Alright, so let me begin by saying that I don't consider myself any sort of expert and am not trying to hold myself out as one. It sounds like you know at least as much about the topic as I do, so I'll just offer my experiences.

Number one, I have found that Rugers take a hell of a lot of lapping to really get anywhere. The stainless guns in particular are hard as woodpecker lips and when I "follow the instructions" (ie. a dozen coarse and eighteen fine, or whatever) it accomplishes approximately nothing. I had a stainless .44 Magnum with a bit over .002 thread choke and it took over a hundred rounds of 220 grit Clover compound to get to the point where it wouldn't hang onto a patch wrapped around a brush. Only then did I start with the finer grits.

So, in a nutshell, my process is to first measure the gun. I use pin gauges to measure the throats, and pure lead slugs to measure the bore. Ideally, of course, the gun tapers down from the throats to the muzzle, in half thousandths. I've never found a stock Ruger which does that. If I find a gun with throats significantly larger than the bore, I send it back, as I have no idea how to make such a thing work, at least with cast bullets. Significantly undersized throats get sent to the guy with the reamer. Theoretically those throats can be opened with fire lapping, but life is too short.

Once the basic relationship is right, I'll start lapping. I invariably begin with 220 grit. The rifle guys worry about that sort of thing, but they don't need to remove nearly as much metal as we do, and finer grits just take forever. I normally will fire 24 of these before remeasuring, and I think that's been enough on just one occasion. Most often I will go ahead and fire another 24 after measuring. That is usually enough on a blued gun - that is, I no longer can feel any constriction with a patch on a brush - but often doesn't quite do it, at which point I might drop down to 12 or even 6 round intervals. Once the choke can no longer be felt, I will fire another 18 rounds 440 or 600 grit (depending on which jar was at hand at the moment) in a blued gun, or 24 to 36 in a stainless one. Then I tear the gun completely down and flush all the grit out of it.

With regard to the bullets: I cast them of pure lead, and have been tending toward heavy bullets with a long bearing surface. I load a steel plate with a mess of compound and roll the bullets, one at a time, under pressure with a small steel bar. Then I gently wipe them off so that the carrier is gone but the grit is part of the bullet. They should be uniformly grey/black, and if they aren't, I roll them some more.

And that's all the detail I can think of. It has worked for me, if not perfectly, then at least with obvious improvement, in every Ruger I have tried but one. That one measured perfectly in every possible way, but simply would not shoot any bullet I tried with it. I finally decided it was infested with evil spirits and so sold it to someone I didn't like very much.

<edit> Oh, one other bit: I do find that enough Trail Boss to just get the bullets out of the muzzle is a pretty important part of the game. Much faster than that and they will lead, and then you are just polishing your leading. I suspect that is why some recipes call for "completely cleaning the bore" between each cylinder full, or even - God preserve us - between each round. I use dangerously light loads and a big sheet of paper right up close to ensure that I see a new hole with each trigger pull. If I'm not completely sure, I'll unload and take a peek, and so far I have not wrecked any guns.
 
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ontarget said:
There are a few here on THR that EDC Single Actions.
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I have been, since I got my simply rugged sourdough holster for my flattop. It doesn't quite conceal when owb, as my shirt shows a bit of holster. But it's real gun friendly where I'm at so no one is going to freak out.

I carried it right off the bat iwb and it was darn comfortable that way too.
 
.38 Special said:
Alright, so let me begin by saying that I don't consider myself any sort of expert and am not trying to hold myself out as one. It sounds like you know at least as much about the topic as I do, so I'll just offer my experiences.

Number one, I have found that Rugers take a hell of a lot of lapping to really get anywhere. The stainless guns in particular are hard as woodpecker lips and when I "follow the instructions" (ie. a dozen coarse and eighteen fine, or whatever) it accomplishes approximately nothing. I had a stainless .44 Magnum with a bit over .002 thread choke and it took over a hundred rounds of 220 grit Clover compound to get to the point where it wouldn't hang onto a patch wrapped around a brush. Only then did I start with the finer grits.

So, in a nutshell, my process is to first measure the gun. I use pin gauges to measure the throats, and pure lead slugs to measure the bore. Ideally, of course, the gun tapers down from the throats to the muzzle, in half thousandths. I've never found a stock Ruger which does that. If I find a gun with throats significantly larger than the bore, I send it back, as I have no idea how to make such a thing work, at least with cast bullets. Significantly undersized throats get sent to the guy with the reamer. Theoretically those throats can be opened with fire lapping, but life is too short.

Once the basic relationship is right, I'll start lapping. I invariably begin with 220 grit. The rifle guys worry about that sort of thing, but they don't need to remove nearly as much metal as we do, and finer grits just take forever. I normally will fire 24 of these before remeasuring, and I think that's been enough on just one occasion. Most often I will go ahead and fire another 24 after measuring. That is usually enough on a blued gun - that is, I no longer can feel any constriction with a patch on a brush - but often doesn't quite do it, at which point I might drop down to 12 or even 6 round intervals. Once the choke can no longer be felt, I will fire another 18 rounds 440 or 600 grit (depending on which jar was at hand at the moment) in a blued gun, or 24 to 36 in a stainless one. Then I tear the gun completely down and flush all the grit out of it.

With regard to the bullets: I cast them of pure lead, and have been tending toward heavy bullets with a long bearing surface. I load a steel plate with a mess of compound and roll the bullets, one at a time, under pressure with a small steel bar. Then I gently wipe them off so that the carrier is gone but the grit is part of the bullet. They should be uniformly grey/black, and if they aren't, I roll them some more.

And that's all the detail I can think of. It has worked for me, if not perfectly, then at least with obvious improvement, in every Ruger I have tried but one. That one measured perfectly in every possible way, but simply would not shoot any bullet I tried with it. I finally decided it was infested with evil spirits and so sold it to someone I didn't like very much.

<edit> Oh, one other bit: I do find that enough Trail Boss to just get the bullets out of the muzzle is a pretty important part of the game. Much faster than that and they will lead, and then you are just polishing your leading. I suspect that is why some recipes call for "completely cleaning the bore" between each cylinder full, or even - God preserve us - between each round. I use dangerously light loads and a big sheet of paper right up close to ensure that I see a new hole with each trigger pull. If I'm not completely sure, I'll unload and take a peek, and so far I have not wrecked any guns.
Click to expand...

I appreciate you taking the time to detail answer me.

I do similar, but what I do differently, is I use ww alloy and I dont wipe the bullets clean. I usually fill the groove with compound. So those are the only real differences, and one or both is making a big difference I think.

I have a few questions.

Do you size the bullets at all? Say if you're bore is 429.

What velocity range are you using? Like a super slow load? That's what I did.

And, do you have any damage to the rifling beginning? I had the end of the rifling become somewhat rounded and not sharply defined.
 
Bazoo said:
I appreciate you taking the time to detail answer me.

I do similar, but what I do differently, is I use ww alloy and I dont wipe the bullets clean. I usually fill the groove with compound. So those are the only real differences, and one or both is making a big difference I think.

I have a few questions.

Do you size the bullets at all? Say if you're bore is 429.

What velocity range are you using? Like a super slow load? That's what I did.

And, do you have any damage to the rifling beginning? I had the end of the rifling become somewhat rounded and not sharply defined.
Click to expand...

I don't think I have ever sized lapping bullets - but I also am picky about throat size, so I ensure all my .44s have .430 or .431 throats, and have my molds cut to fit. If I find bore diameter much more than a thousandth or so smaller than throats, I send the gun back.

Velocity is as low as I can manage. I have not chronographed them, but I can easily see the bullets in the air. They must be well under 500 fps.

And yes, I expect to see significant change to the rifling in the lede. It doesn't bother me in the slightest, as one of the most accurate revolvers I have ever fired was Taylor throated: the first inch or so of the barrel had been opened with a reamer, with just the slightest "ghost" of the rifling visible.

Beyond that, I'm sorry I don't have a solid answer for your troubles. It doesn't sound like you're doing anything "wrong", so I just don't know.
 
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I wonder if a gas checked bullet would help in the leading department? Or if it would just coper foul and defeat the purpose.

How often did you need to clean? Every 12-18?
 
Bazoo said:
I wonder if a gas checked bullet would help in the leading department? Or if it would just coper foul and defeat the purpose.

How often did you need to clean? Every 12-18?
Click to expand...

Gas checks signal defeat for me in everything but the .357 Magnum. By the same token, I find gas checks to be almost foolproof, and if I have a gun that I really want to like but can't make shoot with plain bases, then gas checks almost always get me sorted.

I normally clean after 24 lapping rounds. If I see significant leading before that number, of course, I'll do whatever necessary.
 
I meant gas check the lapping rounds.

I appreciate you sharing your thoughts. I may give firelapping another try on my flattop. I'd rather not have to shoot gas checked bullets, which is what I've been doing. And they shoot without leading.
 
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