Ruger's New 44SPL GP100--Got One!

[forrest r]

Everyone looks at things differently. The gunblast articles are no different. All the looks/fit/groups/triger yada-yada-yada means nothing to me. I do however like seeing the pictures of their targets and recovered bullets. Those pictures will tell me more than any of the hype they are pushing. I'm not badmouthing any make of firearm. I do this will everything I find interesting & so should everyone else. Make no mistake about it, I absolutely take a hard look at everything I own/shoot.
A link to recovered bullets.
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=recovered+bullets&FORM=HDRSC2

This is what the Realguns article showed for the recovered bullets shot from a ruger gp100/44spl.


On my computer is a free/simple/easy to use program called paint. I upload any picture that is of interest to me to a temp folder and then open the windows paint program and open the picture I uploaded and zoom in/magnify the the uploaded photo to get a better look at what's truly going on.

Same bullets but this time they are at 200% magnification. I see lead deposits on the jacketed bullets. I see burn marks on the jacketed bullets. I see rough land marks in the jacketed bullets.


This is telling me:
There was leading in the bbl
The bullet never sealed the bore
The bullet skidding caused the marks the lands left in the bullet.
Those bullets never sealed the cylinders and it took the bullets body up past the cannalure to seal the bbl. Hence the odd rifling marks bellow the cannalure.

realguns did a test with reloads in the 44spl gp100. They used 9.5gr of power pistol for this 200gr speer gdhp bullet. My Alliant 2012 reloading manual lists a 200gr "gshp" (gs ='s golden saber/sperr doesn't make gs/typo error) & 8.6gr of power pistol for the same load.
Realguns ='s 200gr gdhp/9.5gr power pistol
Alliant ='s 200gr gshp/8.6gr power pistol.
Realguns should be using a hot load. Their reload with the recovered bullets.


Same photo with 200% magnification in paint taking a hard look at the recovered bullets. While not the clearest it clearly shows the drive edge/side of the land failing and the blackened base of the bullet from escaping gases. Along with dark marks by the cannalure. Those dark marks are caused from the bullet being a larger diameter from the jacket being pushed outward from the swaging/imprinting of the cannalure the bullet. The material has to go somewhere and that larger bullet diameter just below the cannalure and above shows where the bullet actually sealed/expanded/grabbed the bbl for accuracy.


It pays to look at bullets fired from a fierarm, they will tell you what's really going on. I don't know the diameter of those different jacketed bullets but there was't enough pressure to get the to expand/seal the bbl.

 

[USBP379]

Cylinder walls measure about .075" on my sample.

 

[forrest r]

I hope those .430" xtp's work in that gp100. It might be a good thing to load 5 of each bullet mild and the 5 of each bullet hot and chronograph them also.

The chronograph #'s will tell you about the bullet seal. Looking at the spent cases will tell you about the case/cylinder seal. Your target will tell you about your bbl seal. Take some pics of your target and upload them to your computer and take a good hard look at them.
A picture of your 15yd target that I cropped, could care less about the revolver in the photo, it's the holes that count.


Same picture, this time it's blown up 200% in paint. You want to see round holes. You also want to see even black coloring (ring) around them. If they look they have tearing in 1 area (1 o-clock/2o-clock/etc). It's signs of the target being shot at an angle (I'm talking 15yds away and 5+yds to the left or right) or the bullet isn't stable and starting to tumble.


I do this with every firearm I own. I like to take small light weight cast wc bullets and size the to standard jacketed bullet diameters for the caliber being used. Then I load light loads with that bullet. Then heavy loads and take a hard look at those holes in the targets. WC's cut clean holes and any issues are easy to spot. Some typical test targets I do/look at.
I like to use a 162gr wc or a 175gr custom shop wc to test any of the 44cal's and I size them to .429". The target on the right was testing 44mag loads in a 629 (20,00+psi) & the target on the right was testing 44spl 10,000psi load in the same 629. Wanted to drop the 44spl load down even further to 6.0gr and retest looking for round holes with undersized bullets in the 44cal 629.


What the original targets look like.


Testing a 686 with a 110gr wc sized to .357". Used 4.5gr of universal in a 357 case for a 9,000psi load with that small undersized bullet.


What the original targets looked like, The ww452 load is a 25,000psi load with the same 110gr .357" wc. What the targets did tell me was my brass was shot. The undersized bullets were stable at low and high speeds/pressures. But when I kept getting 5 in and 1 out it tells me it's a brass problem.



Anyway, there's a bunch of good uses for old powers and a lot of different useful ways to burn it up. If it was me I'd be loading 5 of each light/heavy loads for both bullets and run them over a chronograph. Then take a good hard look at the brass, chrono data and the targets.

Like others have said. Putting bullets in the cylinders will give you an idea of how even they are. Recovering bullets will tell you how your revolver processes the loads.

Good luck, hopefully you get everything sorted out. It all starts with identifying what you're actually looking at. Some people see good/bad groups, I see round/egged holes. Some people see expanded/non-expanded jacketed hp's. I see bullet bases, bodies, discolorations and rifling marks.

 

[USBP379]

Looks to me like you've proved that wadcutters cut a cleaner hole than round nose. Lots of work to prove something we already know...

I could be mistaken, and I apologize if I am, but your posts just seem to me as an opportunity for you to bash Ruger. It appears as if you have some kind of ax to grind.

 

[243winxb]

Bullet yaw

 

[Pentz]

Looks to me like you've proved that wadcutters cut a cleaner hole than round nose. Lots of work to prove something we already know...

I could be mistaken, and I apologize if I am, but your posts just seem to me as an opportunity for you to bash Ruger. It appears as if you have some kind of ax to grind.

USBP379 is offering helpful observations not personal criticisms or ad hominem attacks on Ruger. Have the cylinder throats and bore been slugged and measured? To be clear, if the bullets are being thrown through oversized throats they will be gas-cut and off-center before hitting the constriction at the frame, getting squeezed undersized before passing undersized into the rifling. Think about how that bullet is being treated by the time it leaves the bore. Smith 696's had the same problem. If the bullets are yawing there is something going on. A principal tenant of making accurate cast bullet loads is fitting the bullet to the firearm. This is where the resolution lies unless one gets Ruger to size the throats appropriately to the barrel, sans barrel choke at the frame.

 

[USBP379]

I'm afraid I'll have to initiate a return.

Here is a 6" bullseye target at 25 yards. I fired 5 rounds of 200gr plated "FMJ" along with 5 rounds of reloaded 180 XTP and 5 rounds of 240 JHP reloads. Last was my 220cast load with 11gr of Blue Dot.

200gr stuff

180gr XTP's

240 JHP

200gr cast. Note two bullet holes were from previous group with 240 JHP. Still all five rounds of cast are in the black.

 

[USBP379]

Another series. Targets 3, 4 and 5 were with the 200gr plated. Targets 1 and 2 are the 220gr cast. 25 yards.

What appears to be another keyhole

 

[murf]

usbp379, suggest you use a cardboard backer for your targets. the paper tears make it near impossible to tell what's going on with your bullet holes.

luck,

murf

 

[murf]

that second set of targets is much better.

murf

 

[murf]

i don't see any evidence of tumbling in these targets. accuracy seems good for a gp100. what am i not seeing?

murf

 

[USBP379]

i don't see any evidence of tumbling in these targets. accuracy seems good for a gp100. what am i not seeing?

murf

I guess it's all subjective but I would expect better than 6-8" groups with jacketed especially when my cast load easily halves that.

 

[USBP379]

usbp379, suggest you use a cardboard backer for your targets. the paper tears make it near impossible to tell what's going on with your bullet holes.

luck,

murf

These are spray adhesive glued to a piece of cardboard.

 

[murf]

got ya on the target backer. still a lot of tearing on the targets in post #82.

you're right about the six to eight inch groups. and xtp bullets are known for excellent accuracy out of any weapon. still think you should slug the barrel and measure the throats.

luck,

murf

 

[USBP379]

got ya on the target backer. still a lot of tearing on the targets in post #82.

you're right about the six to eight inch groups. and xtp bullets are known for excellent accuracy out of any weapon. still think you should slug the barrel and measure the throats.

luck,

murf

I would be far more inclined to get some measurements if this wasn't a brand new gun that should be reasonably accurate out of the box. On a related note, the XTP's measure .430 and drop through the cylinder without issue. They're a tiny bit snug but fall through under their own weight.

As stated earlier here, while I'm disappointed in how this particular revolver has been shooting I'm still happy with the purchase and will be tickled with the gun if and when Ruger gets me squared away.

Unfortunate that QC didn't catch this gun before it shipped but I know they're going to make it right in the end.

 

[243winxb]

If the bullets are yawing there is something going on.

Normal i think? http://bisonballistics.com/articles/bullet-stability

 

[243winxb]

http://www.realguns.com/articles/844.htm The groups at 50 FEET.

 

[USBP379]

View attachment 227614 View attachment 227615 http://www.realguns.com/articles/844.htm The groups at 50 FEET.

Yep as were the groups fired by Ed Head in his review.

NRA and Jeff Quinn did evals that included 25yd groups and reported very good accuracy at this distance.

 

[243winxb]

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2016/12/19/tested-ruger-gp100-44-special-revolver/

It was a sunny but sub-freezing day (high of 31 F) when I put this revolver through its paces. This might explain why the test loads were flying just a bit slower than I would have expected from the 3" barrel (all three are listed at 1000 fps.). Buffalo Bore's deep-penetrating 255-gr. Keith hard-cast lead load, for hunting or protection against dangerous game, flew at 934 fps. with 498 lbs. of muzzle energy and a 5-shot group average of 3.26" at 25 yards firing from a benchrest using the factory iron sights. Double Tap's Tactical 200-gr. Barnes TAC-XP all-copper hollow point traveled at 780 fps. for 270 lbs. of muzzle energy with an average group size of 3.37". Hornady's Custom 180-gr. XTP jacketed hollow points turned in a muzzle velocity of 869 fps. with 302 lbs. of energy and an average group size of 3.48".

25 yards - 3.26"-3.37"-3.48" All from Benchrest.

Interesting. Not a Bullseye pistol, but great for personal defense.

 

[USBP379]

255gr Keith-style at 934fps ain't too shabby.

 

[WestKentucky]

I hate to say this, but the issues shown are exactly what pushed me away from Ruger DA revolvers a few years ago. Pisspoor accuracy from a oversize bore was one thing, visible flaws in the second gun and chattered rifling was the final 2 nails in that coffin, especially when Ruger basically didn't want to look at the guns when I explained the issues. My gun shop took care of me, Ruger didnt. I have found the gp100 to be a beautiful curse as it is strong enough for the gun to last forever, and those issues to continue to underwhelm forever. I hope that this one breaks in and does well in the long run, but as interesting as it is I still can't force myself to be interested in any Ruger DA revolver. My issues were in .357, apparently their issues cross over to other calibers as well.

 

[ThomasT]

Looks to me like you've proved that wadcutters cut a cleaner hole than round nose. Lots of work to prove something we already know...

I could be mistaken, and I apologize if I am, but your posts just seem to me as an opportunity for you to bash Ruger. It appears as if you have some kind of ax to grind.

I didn't get that at all. I thought forrest r posted some very useful insights and observations.

 

[forrest r]

Looks to me like you've proved that wadcutters cut a cleaner hole than round nose. Lots of work to prove something we already know...

I could be mistaken, and I apologize if I am, but your posts just seem to me as an opportunity for you to bash Ruger. It appears as if you have some kind of ax to grind.

I apologize if you think I'm bashing ruger. I'm not & am actually trying to point out things you might consider looking for with ANY firearm. I do doesn't matter if it's a s&w, charter arms, colt, SA, remington, winchester, cz, anschutz, contenders & yes even rugers.

All's you see is holes in the targets. I want to see how round they cut with undersized bullets with low and high pressure. Any egged shaped holes (yawling) of the bullet tells me I have to take a hard look at the cylinders or bbl's or chambers.

The last firearm I tested was a 3.2" bbl'd taurus chambered in 9mm. A .356" cast bullet left egg shaped holes. The same bullet/load using the bullets sized to .358" cut clean round holes and picked up 50fps more for the same load.

If you think I wasted 1 1/2 hours of my time to do the above two posts just to bash a ruger, there's something wrong with you.

 

[CraigC]

You can rule out wrong twist or low velocity, the 1 in 20 twist should stabilize the shorter/lighter/faster 200gr bullet easier than the longer/slower 240gr bullet.

I see an extremely small forcing cone but that's to be expected with ruger's 5* forcing cone that is designed for jacketed bullets.

I see major tooling/drag marks in the cylinders.

The shinny spots on the riflings are caused from thread lock from the bbl being tightened too much.

Well, looks like you have decisions to make. If it were me I'd spend another $300+ and get that gp100 done right. I'd
Have the thread lock removes and a 11* forcing cone cut
True and polish the cylinders to .4305"/.431"
Have the alignment trued
Have the trigger work done

How is twist rate even brought up? The .44's 1-20" twist will stabilize bullets up to and including 355gr.

Now Rugers don't shoot cast bullets well? News to me.

You mean the CHAMBERS?

What is thread lock? You talking about Loctite or a constriction where the barrel is overtorqued into the frame? That can happen with every brand of revolver.

Misalignment isn't something that can be fixed without a new cylinder.

If you think I wasted 1 1/2 hours of my time to do the above two posts just to bash a ruger, there's something wrong with you.

Wouldn't be the first time.

 

[forrest r]

How is twist rate even brought up? The .44's 1-20" twist will stabilize bullets up to and including 355gr.
Did you get that from your BUBBA 101 locksmith/blacksmith/gunsmith book???
Now Rugers don't shoot cast bullets well? News to me.
You words not mine.
You mean the CHAMBERS?
Na, I send the cylinder in to get re-cut/honed. You send the cylinder in to get 5 chambers cut/honed.
What is thread lock? You talking about Loctite or a constriction where the barrel is overtorqued into the frame? That can happen with every brand of revolver.
For some odd reason when I do a search on barrel threads constriction either ruger or shotguns come up. Heck ruger made the top of the heap from the ruger forum no less!!!
http://www.bing.com/search?q=barrel threads constriction issues&qs=n&form=QBRE&sp=-1&pq=barrel threads constriction issues&sc=0-34&sk=&cvid=9093D4E95BE34C24955BF145476BABB0
Misalignment isn't something that can be fixed without a new cylinder.
See there that $1.99 you spent for that bubba 101 book paid off. Perhaps you could buy ruger a copy. This gp100 was sent back 3 times for alignment issues. After the 3rd time the owner sold it.



Wouldn't be the first time.

There's none so blind as those who will not see

Glad to see you still know how to troll