Russian steel cased .45ACP

[The Glockodile]

I always wonder, if on Russian gun forums, if they have similar comments about brass cased US made ammo.

"Hot loads, horrible smell of carbon remnants upon combustion - reminds me of dog poo.

Does what it's supposed to otherwise, Da."

I love Russian 45 ACP and shoot it exclusively. Big cost savings vs brass case WWB. It does smell like cat pee.

I knew I wasn't crazy!!!

 

[TTv2]

I've used it in a revolver, typical difficult to extract because it's steel.

For an autoloader I wouldn't hesitate to buy it or shoot it.

 

[lsudave]

My old, like 30+ year old Tanfoglio TA/88? broke an extractor shooting Tula 9mm. I don't know if it was due to the steel cases or not, but it's the only broken extractor I've ever seen on a Tanfo gun. Slide stops, sure, all CZ/clones seem to break one eventually, but that gun has very low rounds through it and it seemed odd, so I stopped shooting it. Besides, that smell.

I have 2 pre B CZ 75's. I have broken and replaced the extractor on both of them ... shooting only brass. I don't know if Tanfoglio slightly modified the extractors, but it's a known issue with the CZ's.

Re steel .45acp, I have shot almost exclusively steel-cased ammo over the last year+ (been trying to save my brass-cased ammo). So, steel in .45acp, 9mm, .223 and 7.62x39, .308 in semiauto platforms.
I used to buy all brass. I won't anymore, since the steel has worked as advertised- it goes bang and hits the target where I aim, ejects, and loads another in the chamber.

 

[barnetmill]

I have 2 pre B CZ 75's. I have broken and replaced the extractor on both of them ... shooting only brass. I don't know if Tanfoglio slightly modified the extractors, but it's a known issue with the CZ's.

Re steel .45acp, I have shot almost exclusively steel-cased ammo over the last year+ (been trying to save my brass-cased ammo). So, steel in .45acp, 9mm, .223 and 7.62x39, .308 in semiauto platforms.
I used to buy all brass. I won't anymore, since the steel has worked as advertised- it goes bang and hits the target where I aim, ejects, and loads another in the chamber.

My only issue would be that there are some platforms where the manufacturer advises against steel and only in those cases after a review of the facts would I forgo the use of steel. Some AR platforms have problem with steel and other do not.

 

[RevolvingGarbage]

The steel cases seem to pretty much always produce more resistance to extraction which I’ve watched cause issues in both a S&W M&P15 as well as a Century Galil. It is also a certain fact, the Tula .45ACP absolutely smells like elephant farts. Aside from those points, it’s decent ammo.

 

[vintovka]

I like it!!. Wound up with 3 full 1000 rd cases of early russian green lacquered steel cased .45 with copper jacket bullets. Think says made in Novosibirsk Russia ?. Weird logo/pic on boxes with eagle or hawk under Sapsan brand. Used it in .45 1911s, S&W and Colt 1917s, My 1890 Rem and ,45 mauser carbine. No issues and cleans with hot soapy water. Accuracy has been consistent. Converting a P-14 DP now to .45 acp and will be sorry to see it all gone.

 

[conan32120]

question... does the steel case ammo have the same 'flexibilty' as brass case ammo where it can expand enough to fully seal the chamber and then spring back to allow for smooth extraction? that has always been my concern. I have sent some tula downrange through my gas gun but have been reluctant to try pistol ammo.

 

[barnetmill]

question... does the steel case ammo have the same 'flexibilty' as brass case ammo where it can expand enough to fully seal the chamber and then spring back to allow for smooth extraction? that has always been my concern. I have sent some tula downrange through my gas gun but have been reluctant to try pistol ammo.

Some pistol are fine with such ammo and others are not. Common pistols such the 1911 and glocks usually handle steel and if you break an extractor such a part is readily purchased and replaced.

 

[Mosin Bubba]

question... does the steel case ammo have the same 'flexibilty' as brass case ammo where it can expand enough to fully seal the chamber and then spring back to allow for smooth extraction? that has always been my concern. I have sent some tula downrange through my gas gun but have been reluctant to try pistol ammo.

It's tough to distinguish extraction problems from the steel case from extraction problems from underloaded ammo (endemic to Wolf/Tula). Whatever the root cause, pistols tend to either like Tula and will cycle hundreds of rounds without a fuss, or hate it and can't even finish a magazine without choking. Not much in between IME. You can probably buy one box of it and figure out which type your pistol is by the time it's empty.

My Baby Eagle (Israeli CZ knockoff) absolutely loves steel ammo and begs for more. Same with the Glock 17. My RIA 45 isn't a fan.

 

[Ignition Override]

Do most people do a little chamber cleaning?

Extra residue builds up in chambers due to the Rigidity of steel cases.

The extra residue accumulation can make it harder for extractors to do their job.

Clean your chambers regularly.

 

[DTL]

The fact that it's Russian should be enough for anyone to avoid buying them. Buy American and keep Americans working.

 

[vintovka]

The fact that it's Russian should be enough for anyone to avoid buying them. Buy American and keep Americans working.

Unfortunately many Americans are being paid not to and inflation is driving prices/labor up. Add in Remington's huge ammo recall and why foreign made ammo is making such advances.

 

[PzGren]

The mag dumps and the heat generated from them had far more to do with that than steel cases and bimetal jackets.

The German MG3 had to have the barrel changed after 150 rounds of rapid firing for just that reason. We were issued an asbestos glove to do so. In WWII Germany issued 8x57IS steel cased ammo. I still found those on river banks and in fields in the 1970s, as well as 20mm airplane shells made out of steel. The cases of the 20mm BMK for the Marder were made out of steel, too.

The extraction problems with steel cased ammo are a result from the harder case that does not seal the backflow of gasses as well as brass. That backflow will lead to a carbon build up that will make extraction harder unless the chamber is frequently cleaned.

 

[Ignition Override]

PzGren:

Your objective comments about residue having more space to build up—Around steel cases (in chambers)— might actually be understood by some more people out there…

 

[jimbo555]

Put a box of Red army 45acp through my G36 today. No issues. I normally buy USA but none available at my lgs.

 

[lysanderxiii]

The US really had no incentive in WWII to replace brass with steel in cartridge cases. There was a little inconclusive experimentation. The WWII US steel cased .45 ACP ammo was officially approved for the M3 grease gun. The 1911 pistol and Thompson submachinegun were supposed to used with brass cased ammo only.

The Soviets in WWII by necessity had to develop mild steels suitable for use in cartridge cases and guns with the extraction systems robust enough for steel cased ammo. We did not.

Personally I have no problem using steel cased ammo in eastern bloc weapons designed for use with steel cased ammo. I shy away from using steel cased ammo in my American guns designed and developed with brass case ammo (IBM M1 Carbine, Auto Ordnance 1911A1 replica pistol and TM1 Thompson carbine). Russian steel cases may be as mild as brass cases. But as long as I have access to brass cased .30 Carbine and .45 ACP ammo, I don't want to test my guns' extraction systems on steel.

Not quite.

First, the United States had a huge incentive to replace brass with something else, namely the conservation of copper. Second, all of the experimentation was quite conclusive. (Steel Cartridge Cases, Caliber .30, A Test of Caliber .50 Ammunition Assembled with Steel Cartridge Cases, Quench Hardened .13% - .18% Carbon Caliber .30 Steel Cartridge Cases, Heat Treatment of Steel Cartridge Cases, Design and Manufacture of Steel Cartridge Cases, Steel Cartridge Cases, Caliber .30, Fabricated From 35% Carbon Steel, Report on Cartridges, AP, Cal .50, M2, Assembled with Steel Cases, to name a few report that came to the conclusion that steel would be acceptable.)

The cost and time lost to convert the .30 and .50 caliber case manufacturers was the reason most small arms ammunition in the US was brass. However, large caliber cases for artillery, tank guns and naval guns were made from steel and saved enormous amounts of copper.

Evansville Cartridge (Sunbeam) (headstamp ECS) made 95% of all the .45 Ball ammunition during WW2, some 3-1/4 Billion rounds. A good percentage of that was steel cased. The reason was Evansville wanted to be be ahead of the game and initially stood up the plant for steel, rather than just copying existing cartridge plants configured for brass.

In the summer/fall of 1942 the Army tested steel cased M1911 Ball in revolvers, M1917, automatic pistols, M1911, and submachine guns, M1928 and M1. (Cartridge, Ball, Pistol, Cal. .45 M1911, Assembled with Steel Cartridge Cases)

Their conclusions:

a. Cartridge, ball, pistols, cal. .45, M1911, with zinc plated steel cartridge cases . . . are satisfactory for use in submachine guns M1928 and M1, automatic pistol M1911 and revolver M1917.

And recommended:

a. When necessary due to a shortage of brass, cartridge, ball, pistol, cal. .45 with steel cartridge case, be manufactured and issued to the service for wartime use.

As late as 1980 there were still stocks of this steel cased ammunition.

 

[lysanderxiii]

question... does the steel case ammo have the same 'flexibilty' as brass case ammo where it can expand enough to fully seal the chamber and then spring back to allow for smooth extraction? that has always been my concern. I have sent some tula downrange through my gas gun but have been reluctant to try pistol ammo.

The answer is "YES", with a caveat.

Just like brass, the hardness of steel effects the "spring back" and thus how easily the spent case extracts. If a steel case is not hardened to the proper temper, it will not have the springiness required and stick in the chamber. The same is true of brass, however, steel has a narrower range of acceptable hardness.

One of the silliest things I have ever heard about steel cases in that it is so stiff it will not seal the chamber. That is absolutely ridiculous.

Let us take a .45 case, the case mouth has an ID of .451", and an OD of .473", on firing you have a pressure of +20,000 psi. That puts a hoop stress on the case mouth of 400,000 psi, which is ten times higher than the yield stress of the steel. So, it will expand until it is stopped by the chamber wall.

 

[John Joseph]

As late as 1980 there were still stocks of this steel cased ammunition.

Interesting! My Reserve unit still had the 1911 and our issued ammo was imported brass Israeli.
Good stuff, too.

 

[Slamfire]

I do know from reading an account of a WW2 Officer in Germany, that steel case 45 ACP was around, and may have been more common. The Officer carried a M1905 Colt, he got from his dad, I think, and he stated the M1905 would not run steel case 45ACP reliably. So he had to hunt to find brass case 45 ACP.

After the war, the US experimented with Teflon coated steel case ammunition, (I know of 30-06 and 20mm) because copper, tin, zinc, etc, are "strategic" materials. Even though the US had more copper than, lets say the Germans, it did not mean we could be wasteful. But after the war, I guess we got lazy, forgot the hoop jumping we had to do during the war, and stayed with brass case.

I found patents from the 1950's and 1970's on coating steel case ammunition with teflon


Patent US2972947A

Ammunition cartridge cases

https://patents.google.com/patent/US2972947?oq=polymer+coated+rifle++cartridge


We have found that the aforementioned difficulties in the operation of automatic rapid fire guns can be eliminated or in substantial measure reduced by modifying the exterior surface of the cartridge case to present to the wall of the gun chamber, a surface which is essentially sintered polytetrafiuoroethylene. This is accomplished in accordance with our invention by coating the exterior surface of the cartridge case with a thin film formed essentially of sintered polytetrafluoroethylene. An effective range of thickness for the sintered polymer coating is on the order of 0.2 to 0.6 mil. The thin coating may consist of a single layer or of several layers of the sintered polymer. Polytetrafiuoroethylene is a polymer known in the trade as Teflon.


Polytetrafluoroethylene
US 4041868 A 1977

http://www.google.com/patents/US4041868

A thin walled steel cartridge case having a substantially larger internal volume than a conventional cartridge case. The cartridge case is fabricated from a high strength, heat treated carbon steel or boron steel and the wall contour in the head area is designed to avoid localized high stress. A low friction coating is applied to the outer surface of the cartridge case and serves to reduce stress concentrations in the head area and to reduce extraction force in the event of interference between the case and the chamber during extraction

Russia was very pragmatic and designed from the very start, that the 7.62 X 39 case would be steel. That meant they studied manufacturing methods, steel thickness, steel alloys, expansion and contraction characteristics, and they came up with a round that functions with that material. The 45 ACP was always a steel case, and so its expansion and contraction characteristics may not be optimal with steel as a case material.

Wolf coats their ammunition with (I think) is sintered telfon, but they they stopped calling it a lubricant. This is what Wolf used to say:


Superior Reliability: The application of the polymer creates a precision uniform coating around the casing. It produces a bullet with persistent, uncompromising, stable dimensions thus leading to smooth reliable extractions.


Better Functioning: The superior lubricity improvement eases wear in gun chambers and alleviates excessive operational and maintenance issues associated with rapid firing. The development of this polymer represents a break-through in the field of tribology, and incorporates the most recent chemistry in terms of lubricity improving molecules.

This is what they say now:

Polyformance ammunition will not disappoint! Wolf coats all of their ammunition with a polymer coating to ensure smooth feeding and extraction putting the shooters mind at ease with less jamming. The coating on the ammunition allows for the ammunition to have a lengthier long term shortage time in comparison to different manufacturers

I am certain they have stopped alluding to Polyformance as a lubricant because the the extreme reaction they got from Hatcherites who understand greases and oils will "increase bolt thrust"!!!! . There is an Army Ordnance Bureau coverup, over a century old, hiding the problems with their defectively built low number 03's. These low number 03's had receivers and bolts overheated at the factory, that is burnt, and these rifles were blowing up on the firing line. Shooters at the time were coating their bullets with grease, to reduce jacket fouling,



shooters took their bullets, and dipped them into the tin, and fired them, like this.



Since the blowups occurred with Army issue ammunition, and of course, the Army maintained that both their ammunition and rifles were perfect, the fault had to be with the grease! And this fraud is still a core belief today with many in the shooting community, and is still a basis for covering up Army Ordnance incompetence, even though there were plenty of machine guns with oilers, and trillions of oiled, greased, rounds were fired in combat. And even today, 22lr match ammunition is still greased, and the rifles and pistols using the stuff, function perfectly.

No big badda boom here:



Clark was a Bullseye National Champion, the guys at the shop know what they are doing.




I am going to say, if you are worried about steel case ammunition, put a drop of oil at the junction of each bullet and case, as you load it into your magazine. I have been doing this in Bullseye Pistol. That oil blows up the barrel, and reduces friction. I actually see a plume from the oil, at times. In match barrels I see little to no leading, and jacket fouling is non existent. (crappy barrels will lead and jacket foul no matter what you do) I will get back from a match, and my 1911 barrel only requires a patch to swab out the tube, if I oil every round. And, oil will come out the back of the chamber and lubricates the mechanism as I shoot. This is both good and bad. The mechanism is lubricated real time, fouling is solvated real time, and the bad is, I have to wipe off the gun, because there is oil leaking around the slide. The cases eject oily, which means, there is little to no case to chamber friction. And that has to be good if you are worried about steel case rubbing the chamber out.

Oiling the teflon coating of Wolf cases will reduce case to chamber friction even more. The Navy ran a series of tests with their Oerlkon's, during the 1950's. They tried teflon 20m cases, chamber flutes, and of course, the greased cases they used through out WW2. The machine cannon ran fastest with oiled teflon cases. In the end, the Navy installed an oiler on the guns, and that configuration was used through Vietnam. This is the WW2 version that required pre greased ammunition.

 

[The Glockodile]

Oerlikon.

For some reason, I associate two acronyms with that brand - KAD and KBA.

 

[barnetmill]

Slamfire:

Grease and oil on a cartridge is normally said to increase the amount of back thrust on the bolt face. Lubricating cartridges semiauto and epecially full auto weapons as stated is common. So sometimes it is ok, sometimes not, and some cases absolutely needed for function. It all depends.

 

[GONRA]

GONRA reloaded range pickup .45 ACP boxer primed Russian steel cases
for my Thompson M1928 SMG. Blasted away Just Fine.

 

[lysanderxiii]

Slamfire:

Grease and oil on a cartridge is normally said to increase the amount of back thrust on the bolt face. Lubricating cartridges semiauto and epecially full auto weapons as stated is common. So sometimes it is ok, sometimes not, and some cases absolutely needed for function. It all depends.

Yes. It is important to know if the design was intended to experience the larger bolt thrust.

"The effects of Lubrication and Pressure on Bolt Face Forces," Michlin, South, and Brosseau, Army Research Laboratory, October 2010

ABSTRACT:
In this research, the effects that the level of lubrication has on the case mouth pressure and bolt force of a M16 are quantified. The case mouth pressure and resulting bolt force were measured for M855 and M855A1 cartridges as a function of the level of lubrication in a modified M16. The research found that the level of lubrication on the ammunition, and specifically the lubrication between the cartridge and the chamber of the weapon, greatly changes the level of force on the bolt face. The average difference between the conditions of heavy and normal lubrication was found to be 3000 lb [a 100% increase in the bolt face load]. This force is a linear function with the peak pressure of the cartridge case and the peak forces on the bolt occur prior to the unlocking of the bolt and projectile exit. The results of the experiments are presented and the ramifications of the force on the M855 cartridge case are discussed.

"Effects of Lubrication and Pressure on the Deformation of the M855 Cartridge Case," South, Michlin and Brossaeu, Army Research Laboratory, April 2012

ABSTRACT:
This research provides expanded results of the investigation into the effects that the level of lubrication has on the case mouth pressure and bolt forces of a M16 with a modified bolt. The case mouth pressure and the resulting bolt force were measured for the M855 and M855A1 cartridge as a function of the level of lubrication in a modified M16. The research found that the level of lubrication on the ammunition, and specifically the lubrication between the cartridge and the chamber of the weapon, greatly changes the level of force on the bolt face. This force, in turn, resulted in plastic deformation of the cartridge case. Specifically, the cartridge case extruded metal into the extractor and ejector hole of the bolt face and the diameter of the cartridge case expanded. The plastic deformation was found to trend as a third-order polynomial with the resultant bolt force. The results of the experiments are presented and the ramifications of the force on the M855 cartridge case are discussed.

 

[Reloadron]

Steel cased US manufacture .45 ACP ammunition.



Included are some US 1943 steel pennies. Both the cartridges and pennies used a zinc coating. Headstamp ECS 43 (ECS Evansville Ordnance Plant (Chrysler-Sunbeam) (1942-1944) - Evansville, Indiana: a division of Sunbeam Refrigerator Co.. Chrysler bought the plant to keep up with demand. It loaded cartridges made at the Evansville-Chrysler plant across town and then packed them in shipping crates for shipment. In 1943 it was the first plant to package ammo in vacuum-packed metal cans).

The primers on these cases have developed a purplish color likely because of the corrosive priming compound. The war effort was why the 1943 pennies were minted with steel with the exception of very few and a 1943 copper penny would be a sweet find.

Ron

 

[EMC45]

Steel cased US manufacture .45 ACP ammunition.

View attachment 1015007

Included are some US 1943 steel pennies. Both the cartridges and pennies used a zinc coating. Headstamp ECS 43 (ECS Evansville Ordnance Plant (Chrysler-Sunbeam) (1942-1944) - Evansville, Indiana: a division of Sunbeam Refrigerator Co.. Chrysler bought the plant to keep up with demand. It loaded cartridges made at the Evansville-Chrysler plant across town and then packed them in shipping crates for shipment. In 1943 it was the first plant to package ammo in vacuum-packed metal cans).

The primers on these cases have developed a purplish color likely because of the corrosive priming compound. The war effort was why the 1943 pennies were minted with steel with the exception of very few and a 1943 copper penny would be a sweet find.

Ron

A lot of the purple color you find is the sealant on the primers.