S&W 686-6 plus Half Cock?

[Feanor]

I have a 686-6 plus(seven shot)that I just noticed has something odd with its trigger. If cocked for single action shooting, you can then drop the hammer and get it to literally stop at just about the traditional point of a half cock position, the revolver will still drop the hammer if the trigger is pulled from this position! The gun has not even been fired fifty times, its virtually still new.

Anybody have any idea as to what the hell this is?

 

[Certaindeaf]

When you say "drop the hammer", are you thumbing the hammer down in an odd way?

 

[cfullgraf]

That is not right for a double action revolver. They usually do not have a half cock position.

If it was a true half cock, pulling the trigger should not release the hammer.

I would get the action checked out.

 

[Old Fuff]

The hammer is getting hung up by the trigger catching the double-action sear mounted in the face of the hammer. When you pull the trigger the hammer gets "un-hung" and falls.

Call Smith & Wesson and they will send you a free mailing label. Send the gun in and they'll fix it under warrantee. While they are at it they'll fix anything else they discover. All of this should be on their dime.

Do not continue to try and shoot it. Doing so will increase what ever damage there is now.

 

[Feanor]

When you say "drop the hammer", are you thumbing the hammer down in an odd way?

In an odd way, no! However, I am thumbing it down slowly, thats how I discovered the unusual position, and I yeah, I do understand that double action revolvers normally do not half cock, I'm quite curious about this oddity.

 

[Feanor]

The hammer is getting hung up by the trigger catching the double-action sear mounted in the face of the hammer. When you pull the trigger the hammer gets "un-hung" and falls.

Call Smith & Wesson and they will send you a free mailing label. Send the gun in and they'll fix it under warrantee. While they are at it they'll fix anything else they discover. All of this should be on their dime.

Do not continue to try and shoot it. Doing so will increase what ever damage there is now.

Thanks.

 

[MrBorland]

If cocked for single action shooting, you can then drop the hammer and get it to literally stop at just about the traditional point of a half cock position, the revolver will still drop the hammer if the trigger is pulled from this position!

I'm gonna guess your finger's still applying some pressure on the trigger as you're lowering the hammer to "half-cock"? Very bad ju ju. Bad shooter (not gun) ju ju.

It's likely the trigger is getting jammed between the DA sear and the SA sear when you do this (check out the revolver animation to see how this might happen). Pull the hammer (or trigger) back at this point, something much too forceful happens, and smooth surfaces can get damaged.

http://www.genitron.com/Basics/Revolver/P2Revolver.html

BTW, you shouldn't have to decock very often, but when you do, don't keep your finger on the trigger. Just hold the hammer back, pull the trigger, then lower the hammer fully with your finger off the trigger.The hammer block is designed to block ignition, but only if your finger's off the trigger. In addition to potentially damaging sears, you risk a ND if your thumb slips off the trigger if your finger's on the trigger.

 

[Feanor]

I'm gonna guess your finger's still applying some pressure on the trigger as you're lowering the hammer to "half-cock"? Very bad ju ju. Bad shooter (not gun) ju ju.

It's likely the trigger is getting jammed between the DA sear and the SA sear when you do this (check out the revolver animation to see how this might happen). Pull the hammer (or trigger) back at this point, something much too forceful happens, and smooth surfaces can get damaged.

http://www.genitron.com/Basics/Revolver/P2Revolver.html

BTW, you shouldn't have to decock very often, but when you do, don't keep your finger on the trigger. Just hold the hammer back, pull the trigger, then lower the hammer fully with your finger off the trigger.The hammer block is designed to block ignition, but only if your finger's off the trigger. In addition to potentially damaging sears, you risk a ND if your thumb slips off the trigger if your finger's on the trigger.

You're completely out in left field, where have I written that this was discovered while "firing" the revolver?

 

[Certaindeaf]

You're completely out in left field, where have I written that this was discovered while "firing" the revolver?

Where did MrBorland say you were firing the gun? nevermind. Probably just send it back

 

[Feanor]

Oh? Are you indicating that it was improper to assess the action in the fashion I did? Please, do elaborate for us.

 

[Certaindeaf]

No need to get pissy, perhaps calm down.

 

[56hawk]

Wow, these are some of the strangest responses I have seen to this question. What was described is perfectly normal on a Smith & Wesson revolver. I don't think it's suppose to be used as a half cock, but if you lower the hammer just right you can get it to engage and it will fire from this position.

 

[Feanor]

No need to get pissy, perhaps calm down.

Look, you inserted a strange comment, and as a shooter who definitely does not have bad "ju ju" I asked you to elaborate on it, if thats getting pissy, then I would offer that its "you" that might calm down a bit!

The lowering of the hammer in the fashion that I did/do, is totally normal to the operation of a double action revolver, its the only way it can be lowered without firing the mechanism! Its also neccessary to do so when checking the action for slop, and functional defects! A revolver such as this particular 686 should be able to do so thousands of cycles in this fashion.

This happened to be the first, and only time, I'd encountered such an unusual characteristic.

 

[Feanor]

Wow, these are some of the strangest responses I have seen to this question. What was described is perfectly normal on a Smith & Wesson revolver. I don't think it's suppose to be used as a half cock, but if you lower the hammer just right you can get it to engage and it will fire from this position.

I had never encountered it before, it was quite unexpected, nonetheless I will contact S&W and inquire further, the action seems perfectly fine but for this one unusual quirk.

 

[56hawk]

In case anyone was wondering what this looks like:

 

[MrBorland]

The lowering of the hammer in the fashion that I did/do, is totally normal to the operation of a double action revolver,

Well, yes and no. If you're keeping the trigger partially pulled while lowering the hammer (which you didn't say you were doing or not), getting the trigger jammed between the sears is a normal result. But it's not a normal operation, in that it's not good technique, good for the gun, nor necessary.

its the only way it can be lowered without firing the mechanism!

eh...no. The hammer block prevents an ND. But it's designed to work only when your finger's off the trigger while lowering the hammer. And who said anything about "firing"?

the action seems perfectly fine but for this one unusual quirk.

Likely it is fine. Or was. Even more so now, methinks it's a user issue. But hey, it's your gun, so contact S&W.

 

[Feanor]

Well, yes and no. If you're keeping the trigger partially pulled while lowering the hammer (which you didn't say you were doing or not), getting the trigger jammed between the sears is a normal result. But it's not a normal operation, in that it's not good technique, good for the gun, nor necessary.



eh...no. The hammer block prevents an ND. But it's designed to work only when your finger's off the trigger while lowering the hammer. And who said anything about "firing"?



Likely it is fine. Or was. Even more so now, methinks it's a user issue. But hey, it's your gun, so contact S&W.

You're insinuating that thumbing the hammer down is improper, this is erroneous! When you drop the hammer manually(thumb it down), you must keep your finger upon the trigger to do so, and while I agree that its not a good practice for decocking a loaded double action revolver that has been cocked to fire single action, it is an entirely different matter to thumb the hammer down, or even back and forth, on an unloaded double action revolver, its simply manually working the mechanism, hardly "bad ju ju!"

 

[skt239]

I'm confused over what's being termed as a bad practice here.

When lowering the hammer on a cocked revolver, it's necessary to apply some pressure to the trigger so it can be eased down. How else would it be done?

I agree about the safety issue, I try and avoid cocking the hammer on a loaded revolver but don't see it as an issue on a empty gun.

As for the half cock position, I'm sitting here right now fiddling with a S&W revolver and no matter what I do, I can't replicate the hammer position.

I'm not trying to argue or call anyone out, especially Mr. Boreland who knows his stuff when it comes to S&W revolvers. I'm just trying to get a better understanding on what's been said.

 

[MrBorland]

You're insinuating that thumbing the hammer down is improper

I've been saying that thumbing the hammer down with the trigger partially pulled can jam the hammer/trigger at some ersatz "half cock". Keep the trigger fully back or fully forward when thumbing down to avoid the jam. Whether the "fully back" option is an acceptable safety practice is another thread.

Good ju ju to you

When lowering the hammer on a cocked revolver, it's necessary to apply some pressure to the trigger so it can be eased down. How else would it be done?

Sure, you have to initially pull the trigger before lowering the hammer, but once the sear releases, it needn't stay back.

As for the half cock position, I'm sitting here right now fiddling with a S&W revolver and no matter what I do, I can't replicate the hammer position.

As 56hawk suggested above, the hammer & trigger have to be "just so". Some guns seem easier to jam than others, IME.

 

[Old Fuff]

If the previously mentioned double-action sear is incorrectly fitted so that the bottom sticks out too far you will end up with the described condition. The fix is quick and easy if you know what you are doing.

But since I don't have the revolver I may have mis-diagnosed what's wrong. For example, it may be that the hammer stud (on which the hammer rotates) is mis-located. but this comes under the heading of "possible but not probable." For that reason I suggest that it be checked and repaired by Smith & Wesson under warrantee with them covering all of the costs.

 

[skidder]

IMHO. Send it back to get it fixed, then sell it and buy either an old Smith or a Ruger (Colt if you can find one at a descent price).

 

[DPris]

Had a Smith come back from a major name custom shop that'd do that.
It was returned for correction.

I would return it to S&W.
Denis

 

[MrBorland]

If the previously mentioned double-action sear is incorrectly fitted so that the bottom sticks out too far you will end up with the described condition.

I'm not seeing it, Old Fuff. If the bottom of the DA sear's too long, it'd certainly affect the action: If it's the bottom-forward edge is too long, the sear would have trouble re-engaging the trigger at the end of the trigger return. If the lagging edge is too long, you'd notice a lot of trigger travel before the shot breaks.

At any rate, though I still think it's likely a user issue, I agree that S&W can likely "fix" it (which is to say they can make it harder to do something (half-cock) it wasn't designed to do in the first place). I see it similar to "fixing" a gun someone frequently short-strokes because they ride the trigger forward, i.e. letting the trigger push their finger forward. Though it's fundamentally a user issue, the gun can be "fixed" with a stiffer return spring.

 

[Feanor]

I talked with a S&W technician and the concensus is that the double action sear has an improper cut, or burr, perhaps even a bit of debris interfering with its motion. Its highly abnormal!

Shipped back to S&W, thanks for all the replies, including the bad "ju ju."

 

[Old Fuff]

I talked with a S&W technician and the concensus is that the double action sear has an improper cut, or burr, perhaps even a bit of debris interfering with its motion. Its highly abnormal!

Gee... I'm surprised, but I'll have to live with it.

MrBorland I haven't inspected either the hammer assembly or revolver, but I suspect the the problem is that the sear is out-of-position because of not being fitted correctly, and so under some conditions the trigger can bump it or catch it.

Whatever, I think the tecnician at S&W can handle it without needing any imput from me...