s&w lock

Do you carry a S&W revolver with the lock operational

  • I carry a S&W revolver with lock and it doesn't bother me

    Votes: 60 36.1%
  • I do not and would not carry a S&W revolver with a lock

    Votes: 95 57.2%
  • I carry a S&W revolver with a lock but I do worry about it sometimes

    Votes: 11 6.6%

  • Total voters
    166
  • Poll closed .
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Add me to the list of those who have not and will not buy a revolver with an internal lock.

I've purchased two dozen S&W revolvers since Safe-T-Hammer purchased S&W. The current company calling itself S&W didn't get one dime from those sales.

All prelock. With forged parts. Great triggers. Blue you can see your ancestors in.

I could care less what happens with those wind up revolvers and the company who makes them. :)
 
So, while working the range yesterday, one of our guys brought in yet another old model S&W revolver (M36) to report a problem. The cylinder wouldn't rotate (carry up). Broken hand spring.

After my revolver armorer class several years ago I ordered a fair amount of spare/repair parts for the new model (MIM) revolvers, since we were seeing so many of them being bought for off-duty & secondary/backup use. Unfortunately, looking back at the repairs that have been needed in the last few years, I should have bought more parts for the old model S&W revolvers. :scrutiny: They're the ones that have been requiring attention, correction and repair. (To be fair, cops can be harder on guns in many ways than many firearms enthusiasts, and the mingling of neglect & abuse can eventually result in problems now and again. ;) )

With all the older model guns that are being brought out and put back into service by our guys, I need to order more parts for the pre-MIM guns. :banghead:
 
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I only have one S&W revolver with the lock; a Moodel 638. Got it for a good price a couple of years ago and bought it mainly as a lightweight alternative (warm weather carry), to my Model 649. So far nothing negative to report about the 638, though it really has no where near as much range time as the 649.
 
Had they called it something like a "redundant safety" rather than a "lock", folks would likely have just forgot about it and never used it.
The problem with that is, it is not and never was a "safety" of any kind. Its a storage device, just like the bar locks and cable locks that other manufacturers include in with their guns.
 
Archangel has twice pointed out the critical shortcoming of the lock and I feel the same way. Its default position is locked, not unlocked. If the spring fails (however slight the chance) the gun locks. The spring is required to keep the gun from being locked; not to lock the gun. To me that is backwards on a defensive firearm. I understand that was necessary to pass the requirements of certain states but don't know if that is true. I don't own many Smiths these days (long story) but have a couple 37-2s with no lock and a recently purchased 642-1 without a lock.

Looking at the results of the poll, it seems that Smith and Wesson is being foolishly stubborn about defending their bad marketing decisions. They have clearly sacrificed sales on the altar of dubious safety.
 
Actually, the "default position" of the ILS assembly is unlocked, and yes, because the torque lock spring in the locking arm holds it down in that position. You have to turn the "key" to lift the locking arm, against spring tension, so its post can then engage in the corresponding spot of the hammer groove and "lock" the hammer from moving.

Now, if the spring's bottom leg isn't properly located within the recessed slot in the upper part of the bolt channel, then the spring can't keep the locking arm from lifting, and remaining up, long enough to potentially create a problem if it finds the part of the groove that will stop the hammer's movement.

Kind of like if you don't properly locate the slide stop lever spring when reassembling a Glock. If the spring isn't able to exert the intended tension, it can't prevent the slide stop lever body from being lifted during recoil, and it's possible for the upward "bounce" of the slide stop lever to eventually "time" itself hitting and engaging within the slide's slide stop notch, locking the slide back. The lever spring works by the spring holding it down, so when "parts flutter" occurs (meaning the expected minor parts movement, including bounce, occurring during recoil), the slide stop lever doesn't bounce high enough to engage the slide. People who ought not to detail strip their Glock often unknowingly create such a problem for themselves (not positioning slide stop lever spring).

I could certainly see how someone might open up their S&W revolver and set themselves up for a ILS "problem" by removing the hammer (and maybe the bolt), and unwittingly (and unknowingly) dislodge the torque lock spring's bottom leg.

Or they damage the locking arm's spring.

Or, it's not impossible to every once in a while end up with a spring that's defective by reason of being out-of-spec, or has a materials problem, or maybe just wears out after long enough heavy use. (Kind of like how that hand torsion spring finally had the tail break off and cause the cylinder to stop rotating in that M36 the owner brought to me yesterday.)

S&W has been selling their assorted J's made with the ILS to LE agencies, as well as much greater numbers of them to individual cops & private citizens. (Sure, you can always find some small agency instructor/FTU trainer who may not approve them, but then there's more than 17,000 LE agencies in the US. ;) ) Every time I've asked one of a few LE reps, and the folks in the actual LE sales dept, about whether they're removing locks from J's being sent to LE contracts or individual officer sales, they seem puzzled by the question, and answer NO. I keep being told that the guns which are normally made with locks are being sold to LE with the locks. Of course, they make some of the Centennial (internal hammer) models without locks, for those folks who want them, and will just as gladly sell them to agencies (or the public).

Buy what you want. It's your money. :)

Don't worry about hurting the company's revolver sales. They can't make enough of them to satisfy the huge demand. If you don't want one with the lock, pick one of the few models made in runs without the lock. Buy a used gun. Keep the market for used guns strong, and the prices high. :) (Don't hold your breath for the lock disappearing from the exposed hammer revolvers, as their legal staff is apparently a strong force for keeping the lock on those models.)
 
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Fast bolt - thanks. I really appreciate that detailed clarification. Very helpful. Such posts are the very reason for forums.
 
De nada.

While I'm among the owners who wish S&W engineers had developed (or someday will develop?) another design & location for the internal lock system, it's not keeping me awake at night (or stopping me from carrying & using the one M&P 340 I own that has the ILS.)

Maybe one that's less visible (for the traditionalists among us)?

One that has a couple less parts?

In the meantime, though, I just thought I'd use your trail of logic in these comments ...

The spring is required to keep the gun from being locked; not to lock the gun. To me that is backwards on a defensive firearm.

... and substitute the way the Glock (and a couple other makes) slide stop lever functions normally because of the required spring tension ... and how if the spring tension fails, for whatever reason, the gun might experience a stoppage by having the slide lock open.

Granted, I've only had to replace a few Glock slide stop lever assemblies because the springs became too weak to let the gun run as intended, or the wire springs were damaged (owner removal/replacement without training).

Ditto a few in a couple of other makes that use similar designs, or at least springs to hold down the levers under recoil.

None of those major gun makers are rushing to come up with another way to get the slide stop lever to function without spring tension, and yet if the springs fail, the guns can stop working due to early slide lock (with ammo remaining in the magazines).

I've had some of those springs fail (or be installed/positioned incorrectly) and cause the guns to stop working/shooting.

Maybe someday I'll be able to say the same about the S&W revolver ILS.

I've certainly had enough other parts fail (wear, break, get damaged, etc) in old & new S&W revolvers and cause the guns to stop working. ;)

This isn't a subject that ought to cause folks to become rude or impolite, though, or argue for the sake of some perceived dislike of some company.

If someone doesn't want a S&W, or can't find a used one, buy a Ruger. (I've had to have my fair share of those repaired over the years, and I'm still a long time Ruger owner & shooter. ;) )
 
Hmmm. My carry J frame doesn't have a lock

My backup carry J frame doesn't have a lock either.

And my backup backup carry J frame doesn't have one.

But this isn't so much because I hate/fear the lock. It's just that there are so many well build older guns out there that can be had for a good price, I can't imagine why I'd want to shell out big $$ for a new one, with or without the lock. :D

Disclaimer - I actually do have a couple of range guns with that stupid little hole thingy. Never really thought about disabling them, since they haven't caused me any grief. Not even sure where the keys are.
 
While I'm among the owners who wish S&W engineers had developed (or someday will develop?) another design & location for the internal lock system, it's not keeping me awake at night (or stopping me from carrying & using the one M&P 340 I own that has the ILS.)

Maybe one that's less visible (for the traditionalists among us)?

One that has a couple less parts?

Like the one Taurus has? They offered to let S&W use it, and were turned down.
 
Like the one Taurus has? They offered to let S&W use it, and were turned down.
Not really.

If nothing else, that's directly out in front of your eyes each time the gun is fired, either on the hammer or the top of the backstrap. At least the S&W ILS is off to the side and partially obscured.

I'd rather see it located inside the grip frame, maybe camouflaged by the stocks (and covered by your hand).
 
It sounds as if the lock does bother you at least enough to remove it.
Nope. I leave it in place in all my S&Ws except the one carry Airweight that has it.
Besides I "fix" lots of things that don't bother me...removing the lock is quick and easy and costs nothing.
If it really "bothered" me I wouldn't own a gun with it in the first place. Would I prefer it not have it? Sure, but isn't going to keep me from owning a gun I like.
 
Sure, but isn't going to keep me from owning a gun I like.

It wouldn't stop me either, but so far I march to a different drummer. :cool:

As it is said, (or at least should be) To each his/her own.
 
Don't like the lock. Don't like the hole. Don't like the way the new IL/transfer bar Smiths look.
Don't own one. Too many nice, older ones avaiable.
 
BTW, +1 what Thaddeus Jones said.
Guess that makes me a bigot, since I stick to my opinions, instead of going with what's popular.
 
Whatever the merits or demerits of "the lock"; whatever the success of the current incarnation of Smith and Wesson in selling all they can manufacture, it is clear they have built their current success while alienating a sizable segment of historical and passionate fans of Smith and Wesson revolvers. Implementing a business plan that results in losing a sizable number of core customers is at best a questionable and risky maneuver and at worst needless self mutilation. Maybe it's a callous decision to let the old-time "purists" go in favor of a new breed of customer that doesn't care. Some changes are dictated by new economics. I don't think the lock is one. Could be wrong. Maybe it's an example of "the Overton Window", where a world in which people who can be convinced to pay several times the price of premium gasoline for bottled water is a world in which they can be convinced to buy anything.
 
Metal parts can sometimes experience a failure due to an unseen/unknown defect. It happens (with forged, cast, MIM, etc).

That incident was back more than a couple of years ago, too.

You might bear in mind that there's been a fair number of folks who thought their revolver was experiencing a problem with the ILS, but who were unable to find conclusive proof that it was the ILS actually involved. Not uncommon for other problems to become accepted and seized upon as a "lock problem."

There are some conditions that can occur that cause a revolver to "seize", none of which have anything to do with the ILS.

As a S&W revolver armorer I've certainly seen enough examples of pre-ILS/MIM S&W revolvers experiencing mechanical problems which prevented the guns from working normally. Some nasty tolerances in an occasional old style S&W, too. I bought a lightly used 629-4 Classic (with the then-new enhancement package) which had push-off. The former revolver armorer of that time looked at it said the hammer and trigger would have to be replaced. Luckily, I had access to a spare hammer/trigger for that model and the armorer was able to install and fit them correctly.

This was also explained to me one time when I was discussing another issue with one of the revolver repair techs at the company. He told me he'd had a number of new style revolvers returned for warranty repair because of "lock problems" reported by the owners. The thing was that none of the guns he'd seen and repaired had actually experienced any problems with the ILS.

While the new style hammer sears are being made to such tight tolerances that they drop into most new guns, every once in a while one may slip through production which requires some further fitting.

Things happen.
 
Fastbolt - you are, of course, correct. Things happen and often the things that happen have nothing to do with the lock. I remain fascinated, though, as to why the ownership of Smith and Wesson seems so unconcerned with the number of long-time, and passionate Smith revolver fans who are absolutely turned off by a device that is, at best, unnecessary and, at worst, susceptible to problems. People have talked about the Taurus lock which seems pretty innocuous and the Ruger lock which seems pretty invisible. For various reasons the Smith lock has created a storm of passion among Smith aficionados since its inception and S&W ownership seems blind (or stubborn) about it. Just seems weird to me. For every S&W expert like yourself who argues the merits of the lock, or at least its reliability, there seems to be a half-dozen Smith fans who have sworn off purchasing a new Smith and Wesson. What an odd business plan! I wish them well but it seems odd to me.
 
Fastbolt - you are, of course, correct. Things happen and often the things that happen have nothing to do with the lock. I remain fascinated, though, as to why the ownership of Smith and Wesson seems so unconcerned with the number of long-time, and passionate Smith revolver fans who are absolutely turned off by a device that is, at best, unnecessary and, at worst, susceptible to problems. People have talked about the Taurus lock which seems pretty innocuous and the Ruger lock which seems pretty invisible. For various reasons the Smith lock has created a storm of passion among Smith aficionados since its inception and S&W ownership seems blind (or stubborn) about it. Just seems weird to me. For every S&W expert like yourself who argues the merits of the lock, or at least its reliability, there seems to be a half-dozen Smith fans who have sworn off purchasing a new Smith and Wesson. What an odd business plan! I wish them well but it seems odd to me.
I've heard from different folks within the company that there's still some amount of disagreement about the revolver ILS. Some would like to see it gone, and some feel it's prudent to continue using it.

Considering how many revolvers they're still selling, and the continuing demand, there's apparently still disagreement in-house regarding how much, if any, sales they're losing, overall.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see "corporate" eventually change their minds about this someday, though.

I'm told some of them were a bit surprised by how quickly the original production run of 642-1's sold out to distributors, which had been done just to get rid of some old frame stock just sitting in their parts inventory. It was followed by some 442-1's. Then, apparently after approval by their legal dept, they decided to introduce some occasional runs of some Centennial-style guns.

The decision to offer production runs of the Centennial style guns without the ILS (and the M40/42, with the grip safety) demonstrated that at least distributors would buy guns made without the ILS, and they seem to have no trouble selling those to folks who decry the inclusion of the lock. ;)

From what I've been told, though, it's the external hammer guns that give their legal dept indigestion about removing the locks. The reasoning is vague, but it appears it has something to do with being able to thumb-cock and unlocked revolver into the much light single action mode. (Making it easier for "unauthorized" little fingers to shoot it, maybe?)

The thing is that as much as the "faithful enthusiasts" may be adamantly against the ILS, there actually are ordinary gun owners who have found it practical & useful. (I know, I know, so why not make it optional as on the M&P pistols? Don't ask me. Dunno.)

The other thing to consider is that we've seen a growing number of semiauto pistols come to include one sort of internal lock or another in their designs ... but it's S&W that seems to be the magnet for the ire of some folks. Go figure.

In the meantime, all the people who have a passionate dislike of having an ILS built into their revolvers can choose (as is their right) to buy only older S&W's. That will help keep gunsmiths in business ;) (correcting problems with the older production models), but it'll continue to obviously dry up the supply and drive up the prices ... but only for the revolver aficionados, of course. :)

So ... magazine safeties and internal locks. A couple of things pretty much always sure to generate no small amount of angst and indigestion among firearms owners. :neener:
 
There is certainly an element of irrationality about it all, and I'm susceptible to irrationality myself. Many people were livid when cross-bolt safeties were added to the Model 94 30-30. That never bothered me. Of course, 30-30s are just about gone now. Smith revolvers are/were icons. Maybe it's just that simple. Still, a marketplace is not always driven by rationality. A rational person has to account for irrationality. Not to do so is...irrational. :scrutiny:
 
Well, yeah, there's always going to be that group of revolver enthusiasts who will never be satisfied with anything short of returning to the "classic" pinned & recessed S&W's.

They want to pay for that row of 7 machines & operators that were once used to produce revolver hammers ... and they want it to once again take 75 machine operations to make a revolver frame ... and all the laborious hand-fitting required to make the older, looser tolerances for the parts actually fit & work in the guns. They seem to distrust CNC and improved materials.

They want to see it take longer to make fewer revolvers, and they're obviously willing to pay the higher costs it would involve. :uhoh:
 
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