S&W M&P, Thoughts, issues

[model of 1905]

I had my gunsmith tune the trigger on my M&P and it was a very simple operation and made a big difference when the gun still had a low round count. I have almost three thousand rounds down range now and the trigger just keeps getting better. This is an extremely accurate gun and I have had only one malfunction (squib round) and that was the cause of the ammo not the gun.

 

[Mags]

Model of 1905, Where did you take your M&P? If it was in the greater Albuquerque metro area I wouldn't mind having mine done.

 

[swmp9jrm]

Dan Burwell has put together some great instructions to do the trigger work yourself:

Dan Burwell's M&P Trigger Job

 

[Tommygunn]

I have an M&P 40. I agree with others on the ergonomics; the grip on mine just fits my hand, where my G 19, while it fits, it's just "there." My XD 45 is nice.
But the M&P 40 is like it was molded for my hand.

 

[phantomak47]

Quote:
Originally Posted by phantomak47 View Post
The officers in my Police Academy who had the most problems had M&Ps, including sending them back for new guns and extractors. Not a hater just stating the facts, after seeing how these guns performed during a 1800 round week, I would not carry one for duty or off duty.

I originally went into the academy thinking about buying one.
When was this? (The academy having issues?)


My department makes us to buy our own weapons (we are issued basically a sam brown and holster, 5 uniforms a year) and we can choose from Glock, Sig, S&W and Springfield. Yet again, not a SW hater, but the SW had numerous problems and I would not trust my life after seeing these pistols go through an extensive two weeks of shooting. I went into the Academy seriously thinking about buying a SW m&p.


Also if you look up LA sheriffs they approved the SW M&P and then after a lot of problems with the pistols, they banned them from department use.

 

[gglass]

Quote:
Originally Posted by phantomak47 View Post
The officers in my Police Academy who had the most problems had M&Ps, including sending them back for new guns and extractors. Not a hater just stating the facts, after seeing how these guns performed during a 1800 round week, I would not carry one for duty or off duty.

I originally went into the academy thinking about buying one.
When was this? (The academy having issues?)


My department makes us to buy our own weapons (we are issued basically a sam brown and holster, 5 uniforms a year) and we can choose from Glock, Sig, S&W and Springfield. Yet again, not a SW hater, but the SW had numerous problems and I would not trust my life after seeing these pistols go through an extensive two weeks of shooting. I went into the Academy seriously thinking about buying a SW m&p.


Also if you look up LA sheriffs they approved the SW M&P and then after a lot of problems with the pistols, they banned them from department use.

Hmmm... If you are going to use the one LA sheriff story to back up a claim on the M&P's quality, then I suppose that I'll just have to bring up a quick Google search on LEO's and Glocks to have a fair comparison.

Here we go...

NYPD Advisory - Effective 20 February 2003 all Glock Model 26 pistols in the E serial range of the current "non-recall" have been banned from carry by NYPD MOS. They are instructed to cease carrying the weapon and contact the Firearms Training Section for instructions concerning replacement.- Lt. Sean McMahon

Albuquerque, N.M. - The Bernalillo County Sheriff's Department has discovered a problem with its new Glock .40-caliber semi-automatic handguns.An inspection turned up two more broken guns says Deputy Robert Ray. Ray, the departments armorer, says that on some newer versions of the gun, two pieces of steel in the lower portion of the weapon were improperly machined. Those pieces may be prone to breaking under the stress of repeated firing.

Portland Police Chief Derrick Foxworth is ordering all officers to transition to the use of 9mm handguns after recent mechanical failures of the Glock .45 caliber handgun. During the week of March 1, 2004, two failures occurred during firearms training.The transition to the 9mm handguns will be handled in such a manner as to ensure that officers continue to provide the same level of service to the community. - PIO Cheryl Robinson

The Tribune-Star - Indiana State Police will receive new Glock 9 mm handguns as a result of functional problems with their current Glock 40-caliber handguns.About 50 guns that were identified as dysfunctional through a manufacturer defect will be replaced, said Indiana State Police Sgt. Joe Watts. The manufacturer is replacing the guns at no cost to State Police, Watts said. No timeline has been set for when the new handguns will arrive. When they arrive, police will be trained on their use. State troopers can carry one of the new, replaced handguns or the gun previously carried, a Beretta 40-caliber, he said.

SPRINGFIELD -- Illinois State Police troopers soon will be carrying new pistols after officials said a malfunction in one of the most popular police weapons could have killed an officer if left unchecked. Glock Inc., based in Smyrna, Ga., will replace all of the agency's 2,270 Glock Model 22 handguns at a significant discount, although it disputes a state police claim that it altered the model to compensate for a design flaw.

Local Indiana PD Department (100 Officers)

I know all about "Glock Perfection", however these problems are very real and are the weapon, not the shooter limp wristing as has been explained to us. I am not going to debate that this has been happening. This is an issues that I have had in my duty gun. This is an issue that several of my officers have had in theirs. Quite simply, this is an issue that Glock needs to resolve.

As has been well documentated here and on other professional forums, there have been significant problems persistent in the .40 Glocks. Ours have continued after switching ammo three times, switching mag springs, recoil springs, guide rods, shooting with different lights (including the horrible Glock light), etc...

Glock and our regional rep, M.W. (name withheld) have been of no help. We cannot get our rep to even return our calls and emails, let alone get him to come to the range to see the problem first hand.

This problem has gone on for over 3 years, which is long enough. We have given Glock every opportunity to resolve this, yet they refuse. As of today, we cut a check to outfit the approx 1/2 of our dept. that currently carries Glock with the Sig P229R.

While I realize that our dept. is fairly small at right at 100 officers, this is an extremely poor reflection on the Glock company and their LE rep. Our firearms Lt. emailed our rep to tell him that we were switching back to Sigs and still got no response.

To those who have experienced the same problems I have, thank you for your shared wisdom (R. Moran and tpd223, especially). To those still struggling with Glock over these issues, I wish you the best of luck.

To Glock, as a company I wish you continued sucess. However if your continued lack of LE support continues you will quickly find yourself on the outside looking in, just as S&W did several years ago.

Despite all of the drama and nonsupport we have recieved from Glock, I personally still believe that they make a wonderful gun - just not in .40 cal. I will continue to carry my 23 as my off duty gun until it starts to give me problems then away it goes to be replaced with a 19.

There has already been one documentated case that I am aware of where a .40 22 misfed a round while an officer was actively engaging a suspect. The officer was thankfully well versed in the tap rack drill and got his weapon functioning. I find this to be unsatisfactory for a duty gun.

If an officer is injured or unable to respond to an incident due to faulty equipment then both the PD and Glock are going to be liable and will be writing very large checks to the families of all involved.

Milwaukee Police Department Finds Problems With Guns

Posted: April 17th, 2009 01:30 PM EDT

Story by wisn.com

MILWAUKEE --

The Milwaukee Police Department found that there is a serious problem with its guns.

Officer Vidal Colon was injured over the weekend in a shootout, in which his gun jammed.

The police chief has known about the problem for a year, but he is now taking immediate action following Saturday’s shooting.

The chief sent a memo to the entire police department about the weapon problem.
On Saturday, Colon responded to a report of a man armed with a gun near 36th and Scott streets.
Colon fired his gun 13 times, and the suspect, Louis Domenech, shot back six times, refusing to drop his weapon, said police.

Both men were hit, and police have been investigating the shootout. They learned that one bullet casing had stovepiped, or jammed, in the officer’s weapon.

Police said stovepiping can be caused by technique depending on the position of the gun.

But, the memo to the department revealed that the problem could be with the gun itself.

"We had experienced a number of issues on the range with our issued Glock model 22, .40 caliber duty pistol magazines, which represents 45 percent of our issued weapons," said Flynn in the memo.

The chief became aware of the problem in January 2008. Since then, "Glock has replaced 2,700 pistol magazines at no cost to the Milwaukee Police Department," said Flynn in the memo.

The memo also said that the department addressed the issue with officers during a 2008 in-service firearms training session.

But, according to the memo, 300 weapons have been transitioned while 600 remain.
On Thursday night, training division personnel are exchanging the magazines in the remaining 600 firearms.
The memo went on to say that due to an abudance of caution, the academy will be operating 24 hours a day for the next three days or until the magazines have been replaced.

Flynn also said the protocol in issuing the magazines made the most sense because the only malfunctions reported were taking place at the shooting range.

Pistol Explodes In Deputy's Hand
http://www.wtov9.com/news/21866969/detail.html

 

[ilmonster]

p.s. I live in Milwaukee (mentioned above) and our police dept. is switching over to M&P's from their Glocks. I own a Glock and like it, but am eyeing an M&P too. Very ergonomic and soft shooting. My brothers M&P .40 shoots like my Glock 19.

 

[jon_in_wv]

I have over 5000 rounds through my M&P 9C. It is an earlier one and the slide with lock back with one round still in the mag every once in a while. I believe the use a stronger slide lock spring now. Other than that I've had one malfunction, a failure to feed, in over 5000 rounds. I have NO problem trusting my M&P. Its very accurate and easy to shoot and a good size for comfortable carry.

 

[9MMare]

The reason I asked about 'when' the police had issues with the M&P is because early on, there were some problems....it was like 3 yrs ago. Supposedly, those problems have been addressed.

No one said when. Hopefully, they were issues that have been resolved.

 

[Homerboy]

The Glock has had MANY issues with police departments. The Glock 19 had a terrible start with the NYPD back in the 90's. Officers could choose the Glock 19, S&W 5946, or SIG 226. NOT ONE malfunction with the SIG or S&W. MANY documented phase three malfunctions with the Glock, both on the street in actual shootings, and on the range. And I witnessed them on the street and the range, as well. Glock basically said "F**K You" to the cops carrying them, and only addressed the problem after more than a year when the job threatened to dump them all and go to Rugers. I sold my 19 and my Glock 26 after retiring, and will never carry one again. I don't want to give a company that turns its back on cops carrying their product my money. I own 2 S&W 3rd generation guns, and my carry gun is a 6906. Not much heavier than a Glock 19. S&W has a lifetime warranty on their guns, and will even pay for shipping both ways if you do send it in. The M&P feels very sweet to hold, but I just don't like polymer, striker fired guns.

 

[legion3]

Anti-Glockers unite! The end is near.

And except for the NYPD its interesting that the Glock model that seems the most at issue with cops is the G22.

Yet plenty more cop forces have no such problems or issues with Glock.

Give the M&P a while and we sill see if it has the same long term success.

 

[Babalouie]

The M&P is an excellent gun. Here is a picture of my son winning Gold Production Class as a Junior in the Sunshine State Games. We had a trigger job and it is amazing. We also hard chromed the slide. For competition a trigger job is needed but for an all around shooter/self defense its fine out of the box. We love our M&P!

 

[Philo_Beddoe]

m&p's are great guns and make a good service police weapon

i liked my better then my glock

 

[18DAI]

I don't care for the M&P. I've yet to handle or shoot one that did not have a lousy gritty trigger with indistinct reset. I did not find any example to exhibit inherent accuracy either. Yea, it feels good in the hand. That seems to me to be the M&P's claim to fame.

The big reason that "law enforcement" is "going to the M&P", is that S&W is GIVING THEM FREE M&P PISTOLS, in exchange for the current issue guns.

The local Sheriffs office, and the NCSHP both got their M&P's gratis.

TJ

 

[ckone]

First off, I was a long time Glock die-hard, I've got thousands upon thousands through both Glocks and M&Ps and after have got to say that I really feel the M&Ps are indeed as good or better than the Glock.
Lots of folks point out the obvious that the M&P's ergos win hands down and that's true, but the thing that had me thinking they were a toss up was the triggers... A Glock trigger's reset is hard to beat and out of the box the M&P's reset is soft when compared, but since the M&P trigger uses a sear more traditionally than the Glock's connector set-up, after a quick and easy trigger job the M&P can be made to reset like a Glock while breaking cleanly like a 1911, Glock triggers cannot be made to be as good as the M&P's can... You can try every combo of spring and connectors out there and a Glock will always still have some mush in it.
The M&P's have a few more parts, but for what you get in trigger performance it's worth it IMO, they can still be detail stripped easily like a Glock but you may need a few more minutes that's all.

In terms of reliability I'd say they're pretty equal, the bugs have been worked out, I have almost 6000 through my current M&P9 and put 3000 through one other I had... Seeing them turn up at IDPA matches almost as much as Glocks these days is hard proof of how they hold up to hard use, maybe better proof than some of the acadamy or PD stories since some of those guys can't clean them right without the agency armorer showing them how....

Besides all that, I just feel the M&P's are probably the easiest low-maintence duty/sport guns to shoot accurately available. A big part is you make the gun fit you, not the other way around (probably why you see much less low-left issues with them). After years and many rounds a full mag 2" or less one hole group at 10yrds with the glock whould happen most of the time, now with the M&P it happens every time with half the effort. They just make things easy and seem more forgiving, while chugging along just the same.
Can't believe it but I have gotten rid of my trusty Glock 17 and moved over to the M&P9.
They're great stock, but after a trigger job, they're positivly awesome.

 

[fastbolt]

I've lost track of the posts I've made about the M&P pistol series on various forums.

Without rehashing all of it ...

I've been trained as an armorer for a number of plastic guns, including the Glock, P99/SW99, M&P pistol series and the Sigma series.

I own a pair each of Glocks, SW99's and M&P's.

While there are features I personally like in each of the Glock, 99 and M&P series pistols, as it stands right now the only plastic pistols I have plans to buy in the future are more M&P's.

My M&P 45 has been an outstanding pistol during the course of approx 3,000+ rounds. I did have to replace an original coil pin (sear housing block) with one of the revised pins when it shifted a bit under recoil a couple of times, and one of the original orange-painted mag springs acquired a weird bend in one coil (which was replaced with one of the revised purple-painted springs). No functioning issues were experienced when these conditions were observed.

While my M&P 45 had a trigger on the high end of the normal expected tolerance range (mine averaging almost 9+ lbs NIB, with the normal range being 7 1/2 lbs +/- 2 lbs), when I checked it earlier this month it was averaging barely 6 lbs. Smooth, predictable and clean.

A lot of folks apparently like to feel (and hear) the connector spring snap outward and over the rear of the trigger bar during the 'trigger reset' of the Glock design, and aren't comfortable with the more subtle reset of the M&P (which occurs at approx .140"). The initial Rest-to-Fire trigger travel distance of the M&P is listed at .30" versus the Trigger Travel for Discharge distance of .50" for the Glock (measurements taken from armorer manuals for both platforms). These things are often perceived in a highly subjective manner by a lot of folks, though, and it's not usually productive to become engaged in debates and arguments about how different folks feel about them. Pick whatever you like, if you have a choice, and learn to safely and effectively shoot it, or learn to safely and effectively use whatever is issued to you as a service weapon. It's just a handgun.

My M&P 40c required a revised slide stop lever and addressing a burred condition on the slide stop lever and the slide's stop notch. Feeding has been fine with various duty-type JHP's I've tried over the course of coming up on a couple of thousand rounds, so far.

I haven't tried any of the 9mm models because I already own a collection of other 9mm compact/subcompact pistols which admirably serve my needs.

S&W has been reacting to the feedback and experiences of their customers when it comes to a number of things. The M&P series has benefited from a lot of ongoing revision and refinements since it was first officially introduced in Jan '06.

FWIW, the last I heard about the LA situation, the specific ammunition being used (which also caused similar issues to occur in reissued Beretta 9mm's), the experience and skill levels of the academy cadets and a modified barrel were determined to have been involved. I heard the guns were back in service a while ago, without any fanfare.

S&W is indeed picking up LE contracts faster than people were willing to believe, even if some of them were the result of borrowing a page from Glock's marketing book (meaning even giving them to agencies in trade for existing service weapons in some instances). That doesn't mean they haven't been awarded contracts because of demonstrating the ability to meet desired specs and performance, though, too. They seemed to perform well during an intensive 2-day test done by the DEA.
"During a thorough evaluation conducted by the DEA Office of Training in Quantico, VA, the M&P pistol was subjected to a wide range of tests to determine its dependability and reliability. The evaluation included a two-day endurance test, with 10,000 rounds fired from each pistol, followed by a measurement of the pistol's accuracy. The agency also conducted testing for environmental exposure as well as a physical impact analysis. In each of the tests, the M&P pistol met or exceeded the DEA requirements."
http://ir.smith-wesson.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=90977&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1244350&highlight=

The M&P pistol series has been adopted and/or approved by more than 570 LE agencies in this country, and in upwards of 20 foreign countries last I heard. Not bad for a design so newly released. I expect it to continue to carve out a significant portion of the LE/Gov market, as well as the public market.

I think they have a real winner on their hands with the M&P pistol series.

I'm not getting rid of my existing Glocks or SW99's, though. I'm just not planning to buy any more of them.

Just my thoughts.

 

[USA]

I have the M&P9c and think it's a fantastic gun. Reliably feeds, feels good in hand, shoots +P ammo, easy to strip and clean, good magazine capacity. If you want one, go for it, you wont regret it. I have no need for mine anymore really, but I just cant bring myself to sell it.

 

[Full Metal Jacket]

Hmmm... If you are going to use the one LA sheriff story to back up a claim on the M&P's quality, then I suppose that I'll just have to bring up a quick Google search on LEO's and Glocks to have a fair comparison.

excellent rebuttal, gglass


i've talked with several local officer from different dept's (including detroit pd, who recently dropped glock for the m&p40), and one major reason for dropping glock is crappy customer service. glock is unresponsive & unwilling to resolve any issues with their guns. as apposed to s&w, who will take care of any issues immediately.

thought i'd mention this, as no one seems to be talking about this particular reason as to why LE is dropping glock for s&w.

 

[Manco]

As a longtime gun enthusiast but relatively new gun owner, I'll say that the M&P seems like the most refined design among polymer service pistols. It has the best ergonomics of any handgun I've tried out, in my opinion, and no significant drawbacks at least with regard to my own usage (e.g. I don't train to feel for a trigger reset). It's had some issues like every other handgun, but S&W has addressed the early design and manufacturing issues in short order, and brought it up to speed rather quickly. Like any handgun, I'll trust it only after I've tested it thoroughly (there's always a chance of getting a "lemon"), and so far my M&P40 has been outstanding--no failures of any kind in over a thousand rounds, even when some smaller family members limpwristed it. If I could only have one handgun for personal/home defense, which is temporarily how things stand now, the M&P would be my choice (for what it's worth given my lack of experience...then again, I tried many guns out and chose virtually without bias).

 

[BlayGlock]

being a bit overdramatic, aren't we?

i don't see any "anti-glockers" looking for the "great white hope" lmao.

No I dont think legion3 is being overdramatic. Hang around a few forums a bit longer. Nothing seems to bring out the vitriol like introducing a Glock into the debate (except maybe someone daring to question a John Moses Browning design )

I have a M&P 45 and a couple of Glocks. My M&P is accurate and has been reliable. I also think it has less felt recoil than my Govt 1911 and I have more fun shooting it. My Glock 19 fits my hand and points best. The only thing that I think that Glock really has going for it over the M&P is the aftermarket support. I dont have any of the older S&W semi-autos to compare, but I think S&W did a great job with the M&P.

The finish on my Glocks have held up better FWIW.

Ive had no experience with Glock customer service but does S&W has really good customer service. The big question in my mind would be this: As a percentage, which model needs to go back for warranty work. Without the hard numbers in front of me, I would guess the M&P since it is a newer design and may still need to get the bugs worked out.

Massad Ayoob has an article in the new American Handgunner about why some police agencies are buying into these or switching, here is a list in order of apperance:

1. Some departments have always just favored S&W.
2. The changeable backstraps- can fit a wider variety of hands without changing platform. (Biggest selling point.)
3. Optional manual thumb safties.
4. Optional magazine disconnectors.
5. Equal round count to Glock in 3 out of 4 calibers in duty size guns.

Some of these are very important to policy agencies due to laibility or convienece but may be less desirable to non-leo carriers.

At the end of the day I think it will come down to what fits your hand the best.

 

[legion3]

Hang around a few forums a bit longer.

Here it is systemic.

 

[Full Metal Jacket]

No I dont think legion3 is being overdramatic. Hang around a few forums a bit longer. Nothing seems to bring out the vitriol like introducing a Glock into the debate (except maybe someone daring to question a John Moses Browning design )

i wasn't referring to other forums, only this thread. do you see any glock fans freaking out on this thread? i don't.

Massad Ayoob has an article in the new American Handgunner about why some police agencies are buying into these or switching, here is a list in order of apperance:

1. Some departments have always just favored S&W.
2. The changeable backstraps- can fit a wider variety of hands without changing platform. (Biggest selling point.)
3. Optional manual thumb safties.
4. Optional magazine disconnectors.
5. Equal round count to Glock in 3 out of 4 calibers in duty size guns.

yeah, we all believe what those gun mag writers have to say, certianly no advertising dollars driving their opinions....

-what does "some dept's have always just favored s&w" mean exactly?

-i don't think i've heard of one dept that adopted the m&p's with the thumb safety.



truth is, dept's are adopting m&p's as they are equal in quality, accuracy, reliability, and offer superior customer service & ergonomics to glock.


(the ergonomics thing pertains to most, not all people. despite my small hands i get a better, more secure grip on my g19 than my m&p's.)

 

[LoneStarWings]

My M&P 40 was the first gun I purchased. It's a great pistol. I had few jams when I first started shooting because I didn't know what I was doing as far as racking the slide properly/holding the gun, but I've probably had about 4000 failure free rounds since then. I'm in the process of giving it the 2000 round torture test right now (2000 rounds w/o cleaning), I'm 331 rounds in, and so far, so good. Good ergos, decent trigger, and outstanding reliability. Very lightweight as well. I'm hoping S&W will make an M&P 40 pro next year. I will pick one up if they do.

 

[legion3]

truth is, dept's are adopting m&p's as they are equal in quality, accuracy, reliability, and offer superior customer service & ergonomics to glock.

see

No way...they are made in America and like our cars... the only thing made in America today are Wal-Mart Stores, and they probably use Chinese Drywall

 

[BlayGlock]

what does "some dept's have always just favored s&w" mean exactly?

In the article he addressed the critisim that some departments are only buying these guns because they have always used S&W autos. He said that is not entirely true and list a few agencies that have switched from other makers.

i don't think i've heard of one dept that adopted the m&p's with the thumb safety.

Me either, but in the article he quoted a S&W rep as saying that nearly 40% are going with the magazine disconnect.

I dont diasgree with you at all about that they are more ergonomical for most people. It seems to be the main reason that the departments are switching to them over Glocks and Sigs. I think the M&P is a great pistol and ought to do really well. I honestly do not have a preference over either except that it is a little easier to get parts for the Glock atm. Hopefully the M&P will catch up in that regard.

Full Metal Jacket, if you like PM me with you email address and I will send you a scanned copy of the article for your viewing pleasure.

BTW I had the moniker "BlayGlock" long before I ever owned a Glock. It was a nickname I pickled up in college a while back. I do not think that I could be considered a glock fanboy, but the G19 sure has impressed the hell out of me. That particular model is converting some of my diehard 1911 buddies .