Safety of 1911 and 1908 vest pocket carried in condition 1

[stageman]

I have carried both my 1911 .45 and 1908 vest pocket in condition 1 and have felt pretty secure in doing so. I am curious as to whether there have been any or multiple documented failures of the safety mechanisms provided by Browning's design that have resulted in an accidental discharge? Is there a appreciable difference in the relative safety of striker fired and hammer fired pistols? Educate me.

 

[bangswitch]

Don't know the specifics with safety failures on Colt's semi-autos, but John Browning designed them to be carried "cocked and locked". I can't see that as any less safe than a striker-fired pistol with no additional safety beyond the "split trigger".

 

[JRH6856]

Don't know the specifics with safety failures on Colt's semi-autos, but John Browning designed them to be carried "cocked and locked". I can't see that as any less safe than a striker-fired pistol with no additional safety beyond the "split trigger".

Well, seeing as how the pistol that became the 1911 was designed without a thumb safety, it is difficult to see how Browning designed it to be carried cocked and locked. The thumb safety was added at the insistence of the US Cavalry. Browning originally designed the pistol ot be carried hammer down and thumb cocked before firing. But also note that the pistol was designed as a service weapon for the military and not as a personal defense weapon for the civilian population.

That said, this particular subject has been discussed ad nauseum without difinitive conclusions. Do we really need to do it again?

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

I'm not an aficionado of the Colt 1911 but I'm nuts about the 1903 model M and 1908 model N. I have read that the "Baby Browning" .25 caliber vest pocket pistol is a miniaturized version of the Colt 1903 mechanism of which I am very well acquainted.

Colt 1903's will fire if dropped and have killed folks when this happened...most old timers I know who carried these carried them without a round in the tube and racked the slide before firing because of them not being drop safe. A friend and I have tested this extensively and my advice on the 1908 vest pocket (if it is indeed the same mechanism as the 1903) would be that it is safe to carry in condition 1 but it still is not drop safe.

I think inertial discharges/drop discharges are possible as well in some of the 1911 variants until series 80 but that is speculation on my part.

VooDoo

 

[rcmodel]

I trust a properly working cocked 1911 with the thumb safety off as far as I can throw one.
Which is quite a ways.
I trust a cocked & locked one even further!

I accidentally threw one several yards down-range 30 years ago during a fumbled fast draw.
It landed on the muzzle and did not fire, or even make a tiny dent in the primer.

It has redundant safety's designed in.
1. The safety intercept notch will catch the hammer unless the trigger is held back.
2. The grip safety tang protects the hammer against impact when it is cocked.
3. The grip safety prevents trigger bounce tripping the sear if it lands on the back end.
4. The inertia firing pin retractor spring prevents the firing pin flying forward fast or hard enough to fire a primer unless the hammer hits it fast & hard enough to drive it out of it's hidy-hole in the slide to fire the primer.

I don't trust Brownings striker or internal hammer designs nearly as far.
They rely entirely on the safety keeping the trigger from moving.

Plus, on the striker fired guns like the 1908, vest pocket .25, Baby Browning, etc?
There is nothing retaining the cocked striker except the sear.

A worn slide or striker can change the relationship between the striker & sear until there is nothing to keep it cocked except a tiny amount of sear engagement.

Probably as drop-safe as most any other gun made 100 years ago.
But, Not nearly as redundantly drop-safe as the 1911.

rc

 

[Zerodefect]

My 1911's are my safest pistols.

 

[stageman]

All, thanks for the responses. Rcmodel, that's the comparison I was looking for.

 

[VA27]

I was about 10 feet from a guy when his paddle holstered Series 70 Government Model tumbled out of his waistband and landed muzzle first on a terrazo floor. The 200gr hollowpoint left a quarter sized divot in the floor and peppered bystanders with chips and bullet fragments. The safety was on, the hammer was still at full stand and the empty case was still in the chamber. My partner and I wrote reports 'till the world looked flat and were interviewed by our bosses and the other guy's boss. Yes, it can happen.

 

[Jim K]

Discharges of a 1911 type pistol from being dropped on the muzzle were almost unknown until the advent of full length guide rods. In the original design, the slide can move back against the recoil spring, cushioning the blow. It is still not absolutely safe, but the FLGR makes it very much less safe since there is no cushioning of the blow at all.

In other respects, the 1911 is pretty safe. A pistol with the hammer down cannot fire if dropped on the hammer because of the inertial firing pin. With the hammer at full cock and the safety off, it is very unlikely (nearly impossible) for a fall or a blow to cause the gun to fire; even if the sear is jarred off, it will catch the hammer on the half-cock notch or safety shelf. If the safety is on, the sear will not be able to move far enough to release the hammer, and if it somehow does, the result will be as above.

As to the 1903/1908 pocket hammerless pistols, the first ones did not have a half cock notch, so if a fall or a blow jarred off the sear, the gun would fire. Colt changed that for that reason, but I am not sure of the exact date or serial number. I can probably find out if anyone needs the information.

Jim

 

[rcmodel]

How do you account for the empty case still being in the chamber?

A 1911 will eject a case, even if held just loosely enough to pull the trigger between a thumb & trigger finger with your arm sticking out sideways.

I used to do it a lot years ago to disprove you can't limp-wrest a 1911.

At any rate, 'the guy' was well past over-due for a new firing pin retractor spring or it could not have happened from a 3' drop.

Over the entire history of the 1911 in U.S. military service, I don't know of even one injury or fatality from one being dropped.

Even off tanks, and out of parachutes.

rc

 

[JRH6856]

How do you account for the empty case still being in the chamber?

A 1911 will eject a case, even if held just loosely enough to pull the trigger between a thumb & trigger finger with your arm sticking out sideways

He said the safety was still on. Would that not lock the slide a prevent ejectcion?

 

[rcmodel]

O.K.!

You Got me!

AHHhhaaaaaaa!

rc

 

[bangswitch]

As to the 1903/1908 pocket hammerless pistols, the first ones did not have a half cock notch, so if a fall or a blow jarred off the sear, the gun would fire. Colt changed that for that reason, but I am not sure of the exact date or serial number. I can probably find out if anyone needs the information.

Jim

The manufacture date for the half cock modification was sometime in 1922, but it's a large serial number spread, somewhere between 409,700 and 426,649, for the 1903, and between 62,900 and 69979 for the 1908. These were Type III pistols, and differ mainly from the previous Type I and II from the elimination of the barrel bushing, and the addition of a magazine interlock safety to the grip and slide lock safeties. They are still not "drop-safe", as they do not have a firing pin lock safety, and the inertial firing pin can, under certain circumstances strike the primer of a chambered round hard enough to fire it if dropped.
I have a relatively rare blued Type V 1903 made in 1944, SN# in the 560K range, which was a military issue, having "US PROPERTY" stamped on the right side of the frame. The vast majority of military issue 1903's were Parkerized. Mine was passed to me by my stepfather, who was an Army NCO during WWII, and he got the pistol from his older brother, who was an Army Lt. Colonel also during WWII and was given the pistol by his CO, who I haven't been able to identify (both my stepdad and his brother are deceased). I used to carry mine as a CC, but never kept it chambered. Once I figured out it had a value as a collector gun, I quit carrying it, and I only occasionally fire it now.