Safety off while CC

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"Cocked and locked" is a cute phrase that sounds good and macho and confident. It has settled into the 1911 culture. But this Sig 938 had the safety come off, so it was cocked but not locked. "Cocked and locked" might work for 1911s with thumb safety and grip safety. The redundancy provides another level of safety.

Since the Sig 938 is a single action trigger with only one safety, you have to ask yourself, is having only a thumb safety sufficient to carry cocked? The OP answered the question already... the thumb safety is insufficient to carry the weapon cocked.

This gun may be a great home defense or bedside gun. IMHO it is not designed with a sufficient safety system to carry cocked. It is not safe to carry cocked because you cannot trust that it is indeed "locked".
 
jamesjames said:
"Cocked and locked" is a cute phrase that sounds good and macho and confident. It has settled into the 1911 culture. But this Sig 938 had the safety come off, so it was cocked but not locked. "Cocked and locked" might work for 1911s with thumb safety and grip safety. The redundancy provides another level of safety.

Since the Sig 938 is a single action trigger with only one safety, you have to ask yourself, is having only a thumb safety sufficient to carry cocked? The OP answered the question already... the thumb safety is insufficient to carry the weapon cocked.

This gun may be a great home defense or bedside gun. IMHO it is not designed with a sufficient safety system to carry cocked. It is not safe to carry cocked because you cannot trust that it is indeed "locked".
Click to expand...
Glock trigger pull 5.5 lbs
Sig 938 is about 7.5 lbs

I understand that cocked hammers are more scary, but is it really less safe?
 
I would not like to find that type of action with the safety off when I take the gun off at home. I carry Glocks and S&W Bodyguard 380's with one in the tube. The safety on the S&W BG 380 is too small in my opinion. I leave it off. The nine inch trigger travel is safe enough for me. I have wanted a 938 for some time now. I can use it in the same pocket holster I have my 380 in at this moment. I would get the ambi safety off of it immediately if I buy one. I have only carried my 1911 a couple of times. It just is not comfortable to drive with. I did not have the safety disengage either time though.
 
It would be disconcerting if i had to draw and tried to flick the safety off but no click or movement.
But if i had to draw, the situation would already be disconcerting.
 
Is this a single action trigger? Yes.

Is the single action trigger pull short or long? Short.

Does the gun have redundant safeties or one safety? One

Did the safety disengage while carrying cocked in a holster? Yes.


A single action pistol with a 7.5 lbs. trigger pull was carried cocked and the safety somehow disengaged. And now that he's gone public with it, so its a known concern. If an ND happens now, the responsibility is completely with the OP.
 
The flaw in that holster, and in many others, is that the back leather is too skimpy. It should prevent the gun from touching your body AND there should be a "cam" sewed on the backing which engages the safety and keeps it on safe.

I make my own holsters and that's how I make them. In fact, I test them by shoving the unloaded gun into the holster cocked but unlocked. When I pull it out, the safety should be in the locked position -- forced there by the cam.
Click to expand...

I believe this touches on one issue with some factory holsters. My experience with several Safariland thumb break holsters had the safety coming off with several different 1911 Colts. Looking carefully at the holster, it looks like they used a cast gun mold with the safety OFF when they formed the holster, and when carried, it cams the safety OFF with any movement or pressure against the holster near the safety. Very poor execution of that detail. It should be as described above, the leather should be trying to get the safety ON, not OFF.
 
jamesjames said:
Is this a single action trigger? Yes.

Is the single action trigger pull short or long? Short.

Does the gun have redundant safeties or one safety? One

Did the safety disengage while carrying cocked in a holster? Yes.


A single action pistol with a 7.5 lbs. trigger pull was carried cocked and the safety somehow disengaged. And now that he's gone public with it, so its a known concern. If an ND happens now, the responsibility is completely with the OP.
Click to expand...
Using your same analysis, show me different answers that make the Glock safer. Pounds of trigger pull equal pounds of trigger pull regardless of action type. The dangly thing in the Glock must be pressed prior to firing? Well the serrations on the front of my CZ trigger has to be pressed too.

I don't know that I'm really arguing anything besides your assertion that it is less safe than your less-safe Glock. Bottom line....protect your trigger.

That being said, the 938 is not a gun that I want to carry.
 
Any ND is completely the users fault.
I have thought about it and read the replies here and I have decided I will continue to carry it cocked and locked.
I will however check the safety occasionally.
The difference between my Sig and my Glock is the exposed trigger and the thumb safety.
If I shoot myself in the foot I will be sure to let you all know so you can tell me "I told you so".
 
guyfromohio said:
Glock trigger pull 5.5 lbs
Sig 938 is about 7.5 lbs

I understand that cocked hammers are more scary, but is it really less safe?
Click to expand...

I don't understand the appeal of a single action that requires a manual safety and has a heavier trigger than a Glock.

Why?!
 
My Lobo holster for my Sig 1911 did that to me. I was 100% positive that I had engaged the safety and when I put it in the safe later in the day the safety was off. That happened three times. I put the gun in the holster and snapped the thumb-break down and noticed it touching the safety, so I trimmed the leather back just a tiny bit (down to the stitches) and it's never happened again.
 
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Good example why I do not prefer an ambi safety in my SAO carry guns. Even so, if you are properly maintaining trigger discipline when drawing your gun (for whatever reason) an accidentally disengaged safety will not cause you any harm. IMO ND issues arise from the holstering process, and you can verify safe prior to this.
 
The "issue" of having a SA with higher trigger pull and only one safety is exactly that, a point of discussion on the internet.

Why would someone want to carry a "high" trigger weight SA with safety? Because product liability gives us no choice. What is interesting are the significant number of 1911 carriers with triggers MUCH lighter - competition triggers under 4 pounds - who never express any concern over it. And yet I can tell you without reservation some of them find their guns off safe, single sided no ambi.

It's a state of mind - not necessarily an actual issue. Much the same as those who aren't comfortable with carrying a gun with a round chambered. I didn't trust the LCP I once owned for that, yet carry a Kahr that way with no reservations. The Kahr has a lighter trigger pull than that old first gen LCP.

Its a state of mind.

One part of being comfortable with carry loaded is having a set of expectations about it - and for the most part we haven't proven any of them to be fact in most cases. We just accept what we think is common knowledge and go with it. From what we read here those carrying SA with safety either expect that it will be absolutely perfect in operation - or accept it is just a mechanical device and can be defeated.

I'm going to suggest that if someone thinks a gun has to work perfectly it's a fantasy notion. They should be reliable, but very few machines are ever perfect. And as time goes by, experience is gained, and maturity sets in, you discover you can't expect perfection. It's just a advertising slogan. ANY gun can and will malfunction, ANY safety can and will fail. What you learn is to conduct YOURSELF in a manner to prevent those issues.

So far what we have established is that if you carry a SA with safety, then plan to find it off every now and then. Goes to the choice of holster and that it must cover the trigger. Glock put out guidance on that decades ago and instructed owners to use a hard cover over the trigger - and the bulk of ND's are based on failure to follow that guidance. It's good practice - soft fabrics, floppy leather, or any other entanglement can and will defeat any trigger. Since any gun can be or is designed to be "off safe" then the real issue is conducting ourselves to be aware of it.
 
I believe this touches on one issue with some factory holsters. My experience with several Safariland thumb break holsters had the safety coming off with several different 1911 Colts. Looking carefully at the holster, it looks like they used a cast gun mold with the safety OFF when they formed the holster, and when carried, it cams the safety OFF with any movement or pressure against the holster near the safety. Very poor execution of that detail. It should be as described above, the leather should be trying to get the safety ON, not OFF.
Click to expand...
That's how I make 'em, and I've never had a safety disengage in one of my holsters. However every time I've tried a commercial holster with a thumb break, I've had problems.
 
I don't understand the appeal of a single action that requires a manual safety and has a heavier trigger than a Glock.
Click to expand...

Its a short, crisp, break with little travel. Its much different than a Glock.

I have had the same problem with my Sig P238 though. I found the safety off at least twice. I carried it in a clone of a Crossbreed mini-tuk. I blamed the holster, but really any holster of similar design could do the same thing.

I still like my P238 but I stopped carrying it.
 
I've had the safety slip off/on on several SA, SA/DA, and even a striker fired pistol while in the holster. All had ambi safeties (Springfield Loaded 1911, Beretta 92fs, and FNS-40c, respectfully).

I like safeties. Well, I like them for transport and storage. Having one more mechanical thing that must be done before the gun can be fired gives me peace of mind when I have to holster and unholster for work, or if I am traveling.

I've since switched to a Glock or a revolver. The safeties were becoming an issue getting knocked on and off. I switched to a removable holster so that I can just remove the whole gun from my person, holster and all, instead of worrying about relying on a safety.
 
I've since switched to a Glock or a revolver. The safeties were becoming an issue getting knocked on and off. I switched to a removable holster so that I can just remove the whole gun from my person, holster and all, instead of worrying about relying on a safety.
Click to expand...

I don't like a safety on my EDC guns. I rotate 2 Glock's (G27 & G36) and 1 S&W (686P).

One less thing to go wrong, as Fiv3r has noted.
 
fireman 9731 said:
I have had the same problem with my Sig P238 though. I found the safety off at least twice. I carried it in a clone of a Crossbreed mini-tuk. I blamed the holster, but really any holster of similar design could do the same thing.
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Ambi safety or single-sided? Some P238s are available either way.

I've carried a P238 extensively in a DeSantis Nemesis pocket holster. My P238 has a single-sided safety. I have never found the safety off.

I'm wondering if it's an issue of IWB + ambi safety.
 
Mine has the single safety. The leather on the holster formed around the safety pretty well, but I guess a decent jolt could cause it to shift and de-activate the safety. I had the magazine release a couple of times too.

I still like the gun, and the King-tuk/mini-tuck holster design, it might just be a bad combo.

I carry my S&W 442 now. No magazine releases or safeties to worry about.
 
I'll have to jump on the expectation train. If I holster a gun that has a safety I expect it to be fully functional and in operation or I will move to something else. Today I carry a Glock, all my expectations are met and I have no surprises.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
 
I have two carry guns with safeties, always carried in quality holsters (one with an ambi safety). Numerous times I've upholstered to find the safety moved.
As previously mentioned, always respect the trigger, and always train with the safety when drawing.
 
I sometimes carry a Beretta 85FS which is DA/SA with an ambi safety. Once I found the safety had become disengaged, but since it is DA first shot, it didn't bother me. I believe it was the ambi safety that caused it to become disengaged. I may take the right safety lever off as I do not use it.
 
"Cocked and locked" ... might work for 1911s with thumb safety and grip safety. The redundancy provides another level of safety.
Click to expand...

I think the presence of the grip safety (along with any other safety system that may be present) has to be factored into the decision of what condition to carry a pistol.
 
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