Safety

[M-Cameron]

Interesting thought process - you don't believe that the same Murphy's Law (getting snagged, bumped, etc) applies to triggers with rounds in the chamber?

How do you transport your long guns that you might need to quickly depend on without a safety? Do you just lay them on the seat, chamber loaded, no safety? If you're using your long gun and it tactically makes sense to switch to your pistol (close quarters, vehicles, etc) do you just leave the long gun on the sling loaded with no safety? You don't believe that another piece of equipment could snag the trigger while you're moving around?

If a gun is in a proper holster, there is no conceavible way for a trigger to be pulled or otherwise be made to fire.

As for long guns.....quite frankly I don't transport loaded long guns... I don't use my long guns "tactically" and I have no need to drive around with One in my front seat. If I'm holding my rifles, the chamber is empty until I have it shouldered and ready to shoot.

If for some reason I am In a 'tactical' situation where I need to switch to my pistol, chances are prett good switching my rifle to safe Is not going to be high on my list of concerns.

 

[45_auto]

If a gun is in a proper holster, there is no conceavible way for a trigger to be pulled or otherwise be made to fire.

Good point. As long as you can't conceive of ANY reason to ever have to take your gun out of the holster, safeties are superfluous.

I know of two local cops over the past 12 years who have shot themselves re-holstering. One Glock, one Springfield - one through the foot, the other in the calf. Luckily both were during training with FMJ ammo, neither injury was disabling.

The Glock guy had his finger on the trigger. The Springfield guy caught the strap of his Level III retention holster through the trigger guard.

Both of those happened DESPITE having safeties on the guns. I can't imagine anyone wanting to carry a cocked, loaded weapon with no safeties.

But it'll never happen to you!

 

[M-Cameron]

Quote:
If a gun is in a proper holster, there is no conceavible way for a trigger to be pulled or otherwise be made to fire.
Good point. As long as you can't conceive of ANY reason to ever have to take your gun out of the holster, safeties are superfluous.

I know of two local cops over the past 12 years who have shot themselves re-holstering. One Glock, one Springfield - one through the foot, the other in the calf. Luckily both were during training with FMJ ammo, neither injury was disabling.

The Glock guy had his finger on the trigger. The Springfield guy caught the strap of his Level III retention holster through the trigger guard.

Both of those happened DESPITE having safeties on the guns. I can't imagine anyone wanting to carry a cocked, loaded weapon with no safeties.

But it'll never happen to you!
Last edited by 45_auto; Today at 11:41 AM.

That's not a mechanical issue, that's a training issue.....
In the first instance, the gun fired because he had his finger in the trigger......
In the second instance, the operator wasn't paying attention...it could also be blamed on poor holster design.

You said it yourself, both guns had safeties.....so it wasn't lack of the safety feature that caused the ADs so your examples are really quite pointless for your argument.

The fact that you can have an AD on a gun with a safety doesn't prove that a gun without a safety is any more dangerous...... All it proves is that you can have an AD on a gun with a safety.

 

[Potatohead]

I could be wrong but it seems like a good many folks say they do not like a thumb safety on their firearm. My uncle is a LEO and he scoffs at any gun with a safety-he wont even consider having a gun with one..

Ask him about his deluxe dept. issue holster. Most likely he had to take a class on its operation alone. And, a LEOs holster is nothing about concealment, but the contrary!! These holsters cost around $100 with dept discount. LEO holsters are a safety device in themselves, with 2 or 3 things that must happen before the pistol can be drawn; the holster is an external safety. Why??? And this will be the basis for most of my following comments....No dept wants an officers pistol taken (unauthorized use), and ultimately used against them.

Also, i've heard a lot of people say they do not like a magazine disconnect safety either.

I agree, in fact thats a fleeting issue with current manufactures as far as I've seen.

I know the safety "between your ears" is the most important but
why do some folks not like safety features such as these, especially since you can choose to just not use the thumb safety if you have one? Am i missing something here? (FYI i'm still new at this so its quite possible that yes, i am missing something here).
IMHO, lack of training or, fortunately,lack of real life encounters. Again I state that, dept issue pistols...regardless of manufacturer...are now mated to a level two or three holster. F.Y.I. that means, 2 or 3 things have to be pushed, tugged, etc before the pistol will come out.

Then off duty LEOs take that same pistol i.e. GLock, and put it in an open carry / concealed holster you're asking for potential unauthorized use. If a thug whacks you in the head you will be disoriented for seconds...don't get shot with your own gun. Also ask your LEO friends if they're trained to 1)disarm an armed attacker and 2) recover their pistol (if its any type of dept), the answer will be ''yes''. Why??

Between your ears...remember...in a real encounter you will be acting defensively. The perp will be the aggressor...offensively. If the perp takes your gun from you (its actually easier then you think) and he's taking several seconds (he's already in offensive action status)jerking on the trigger instead of disengaging the safety, you have that same time to respond, flee, etc.

If you do decide to carry a firearm with/without a physical external safety I strongly suggest a concealment holster with some type of retention device, preferably a lever/button to push and not simply a snap. I also suggest training drawing your pistol, returning to holster, repeat. I also suggest further training in weapons retention & situational awareness i.e. an NRA approved course.

BTW,the big "G" doesn't condone carrying their pistol with a chambered round. So says their instructional manual.With all those internal safeties, why??

Hope that helps some!

thanks

 

[Old Guy]

When I first started to compete in IPSC/USPSA, my match pistol was a 1911 Colt .45, carry pistol was a LW Commander.

Missed the safety in a big match! Went to Glock 19, for everything!

 

[45_auto]

You need to talk to m-cameron about getting the safety on that Glock removed. No telling when it's going to crap out on you.

But to answer your question, if I can remove the safety without compromising the function or integrity of the gun, then yes, I remove it.

You are talking about a device who's sole purpose is to prevent you from pulling the trigger....forgive me if I don't want that any where near a gun I might need to depend on.

 

[Lateck]

I prefer having safeties, just me.
Now for me it is also in case any one else ever happened to get my firearm from me. That safety may give me a second or two to get it back.
I read in a magazine back in the 80's of a street test where they asked a number of people to come in and shoot.
The average time to pick up and fire a revolver vis semi auto
was 8 seconds quicker. With one person taking over a minute just to fire the SA.

Yes, I know one should NEVER leave a loaded firearm available!!!! But just in case.....

My thoughts.

Lateck,

 

[230RN]

MtnCreek:

Any internal safety that needs a key (Looking at you Bersa and Taurus, key S&W)

I forgot about that one, too. Every once in a while (not often enough) I stick the keys in them and make sure they're all the way off. I've often wondered if there was an easy way to lock them "off" without buggering up the gun itself.

But I always have the keys with me. (Taurus lowest, S&W a little up and to the right of it.)

Terry, 230RN

 

[beatledog7]

The gun I'm carrying will be set to fire with just a trigger pull--one switch to bang.

No cocked and locked carry for me, and that's just a preference based on the above philosophy. I carry DA revolvers. I carry a Glock. I have pistols that have decockers, and if I carry one of them, it's decocked and ready to fire in DA, safety off.

Those that are DA/SA and have no decocker or are SA only are range guns. I can safely lower the hammer on such a gun, but there's no need since I have carry options that don't require it.

For me, a magazine disconnect is neither here nor there.

 

[coloradokevin]

Thumb safeties, two stage triggers, long and/or heavy trigger pulls, grip safeties etc all work. 1911s wouldn't be so popular if they weren't safe to use and carry. Same said about Glock.

I don't mean to disparage the 1911, as it is a timeless classic in the world of shooting. But, the 1911 is also a 100-year-old design that some folks cling to just a little too much (the proprietor of one shop I'm aware of locally thinks that you're an idiot of you don't carry a 1911). Despite the fact that the 1911 is an enduring design that was WELL ahead of its time when it debuted, it does have some problems. I've seen the grip safety issue cause people to have problems during qualifications at our police range, under the comparatively low stress environment of shooting at paper. I also have a friend who's an IPSC grand master who paid to have his grip safety heavily modified on his gun so that he wouldn't (again) run into problems of the safety not disengaging on his competition gun (a 1911 on steroids).

I like 1911's, but they aren't perfect, and the design isn't perfect.

I think a lot of people don't understand the purpose of the safety. It's to prevent the weapon from going off when you don't command it to - as in drops, jarring, etc.

Indeed. And many modern combat/defensive handguns are designed in such a manner that they don't need such an external safety to be "drop safe". The Glocks are obviously a classic example of this: you can drop them or hit them with a hammer and they aren't going to "just go off".

That's what both the local LEO's that I know who shot themselves while re-holstering said.

Well, finger-in-trigger-guard while reholstering is a sure way to buy yourself a racing stripe down your strong side leg. This has happened to a lot of folks, including law enforcement officers (and guys on my own department). We had to carry Glocks with "NY Triggers" for about 10 years thanks to a few people doing that. But, that is 100% a user error issue, and NOT a problem with the gun.

 

[herrwalther]

I agree that the 1911 isn't a perfect design. And I don't think any design is perfect. For instance my biggest issue with the 1911 is capacity. Your standard .45 1911 will carry 7 or 8 in the magazine. A few special examples such as Para P14 is a double stack at 14. I also wish more companies could perfect 3 inch barrels on a 1911 style for more compact frames. And easier disassemble process. Even with these gripes I still like the platform. It is all about how you train with it.

 

[breakingcontact]

Thumb safety...yes.

Mag disconnect...no.

 

[Old Guy]

Handguns are for defense, yes I know there are target pistols, hunting revolvers, ad in finite um. Or how ever the Latin goes, but the basic use of the one hand gun, is defense of self, and family.

This defense is not leisurely work! No go to the trunk of your car, or your closet mounted safe to extract that 12 gauge pump, or Semi Auto 5.56 rifle.

This is end of shift at 0 dark 30, trudging across the 711 parking lot, for that forgotten Jug of Milk! Meeting a wild eyed, drugged up teen, and his .25 caliber Jennings!
Who just wants your Jeep, with the garage opener, with convenient GPS to lead him to your House, and sleeping Wife and baby's!

That's when that Glock 19 comes from under your coat, no safety catch to miss, no grip safety to crap out on you, just a tinny plastic center to that 5lb trigger to defeat.

And when your ears stop ringing, and you stop beating your self up, and know beyond a shadow of a doubt you had no choice, but to unleash that burst of 9mm rounds. You will thank the design of that pistol, that gave you that one second solution, to a problem not of your making.

 

[1911Tuner]

And the debate rages on.

I've seen the grip safety issue cause people to have problems during qualifications at our police range,

And this doesn't apply to all people. A small percentage of pistol shooters have this problem due to their individual hands' configuration. Most people never experience it.

I had a discussion with a guy over the relative "safety" of a cocked and locked 1911. He was convinced that it would discharge in the holster...safety or no safety...and nothing would convince him otherwise.

I suggested that he perform an experiment.

Cock an unloaded pistol and leave the safety in the FIRE position. Carry it around in a holster for a month, and keep it in the holster even when he wasn't wearing it. At the end of the trial period he would tell me how many times the hammer fell.

It never did. This also didn't sway him from his belief that the gun would somehow function differently with a loaded chamber.

This illustrates two things. One is that a cocked and locked 1911 won't fire itself, despite the cocked hammer...and two is that there are some people who are so invested in their beliefs that they refuse to be swayed, despite all evidence to the contrary.

The manual safety on the 1911 isn't there for carrying cocked and locked. It was added as a final modification on request by the US Cavalry primarily for the purpose of safely reholstering under stress, with the assumption that the pistol would be redrawn shortly afterward.

Carry on!

 

[Old Guy]

Reference a 1911 firing without the trigger being pressed!

I was acting as a CRO at the World Shoot USPSA/IPSC in Florida in 1986.

My portion of this very large match in Orlando, was the Standards! Every body hatted officiating the standards.

It was allowed to replace the magazine, without asking a Range Officer, providing the gun was not drawn from the holster.

John Sale, a very experienced shooter, did just that, standing on the line...His Colt .45 ACP, 1911, went off, as he banged the magazine home!

The round went into the sandy ground, did not hit the shooter. John was Disqualified, had to be, that was the rule.

I, and others stated emphatically that the pistol was home in the holster, trigger hidden from being touched, or seen.

The pistol was unloaded, and delivered to a gun smith, with the magazine.

Verdict, as the trigger system on a 1911 goes around the magazine, when the magazine is seated, it was shown, and duplicated, in the shop, that sand on the magazine, pulled the trigger, released the sear, bypassing the grip safety.

Mr. Sale was allowed to continue, the DQ was cancelled, but he lost the standards portion of the shoot.

I had no say in that verdict, him loosing the standards.

 

[Patrick Gookin]

Verdict, as the trigger system on a 1911 goes around the magazine, when the magazine is seated, it was shown, and duplicated, in the shop, that sand on the magazine, pulled the trigger, released the sear, bypassing the grip safety.

I don't see how that could've happened. The Grip Safety is supposed to physically block the trigger from movement. The competitor must've filed off the protrusion on the front side of the grip safety, disabling it permantently. Either that, or the grip safety was being depressed while the magazine was being inserted into the gun.

 

[1911Tuner]

I don't see how that could've happened. The Grip Safety is supposed to physically block the trigger from movement.

That can happen when the corner of the disconnect protrudes through the back of the magwell, and the magazine contacts it as it's slammed in. It's rare, and it requires a mechanical/spec problem...but it can happen. Most of the time, it "stages" the sear, and the telltale indication is a scary light trigger on the first round after a mag change.

I've only known of one pistol firing on a hard mag change, and the owner said that it was the first and only time it had ever done it...but he did reveal that he'd experienced a light trigger on the first round following a vigorous reload.

Most often, neither malfunction is ever noticed or causes a problem unless the magazine is really slammed in hard. I found it once during a teardown for cleaning on a pistol that the owner had used for years without issue. A few strokes with a file to round the corner of the disconnect took care of it.

 

[Old Guy]

Well Gent's I saw it happen, his left hand was cupping the rear sight, right palm slammed the magazine in.... BANG!

 

[Skribs]

My personal opinion is that the simplest option is the best. The less actions I have to take when its down to the wire, the better.

On the other hand, some people value redundancy higher. For these people, simplicity can still be achieved by only getting weapons with similar safeties.

Others like a variety of options so they can maintain muscle memory on all the options.

All viewpoints have their merits, but because this is the internet mine is best.

 

[JRH6856]

Well Gent's I saw it happen, his left hand was cupping the rear sight, right palm slammed the magazine in.... BANG!

My money is on Tuner's explanation and not "sand on the magazine".

 

[Old Guy]

Well when a gunsmith tells you that is what happened? What do you do, call him a liar?

 

[JRH6856]

I would tell him just what I wrote.

If he verifies that is not the cause, I might consider sand...or even fairy dust.

Because the grip safety physically blocks the trigger's movement, and as noted earlier, unless the grip safety is depressed (intentionally or accidentally(, or permanently deactivated (by filing or pinning, or temporarily by taping or a rubber band), the trigger will not move enough to trip the sear. Can't do it with sand, can't do it with gravel. You would need to pound it with a really big rock. Several times.

his left hand was cupping the rear sight,

Where was his thumb? Was it on the safety or the safety tang? If so, slamming hte mag home may well have pressed the grip safety against his thumb. But then, where was the thumb safety? Why was it off safe during the holstered reload? In order for what you say happend to have happened, two safey systems had to be defeated, one intentionally so, the other intentionally or accidentally.

If the gun had been intentionally rendered unsafe, the shooter should have been DQd.

But even the magazine tripping the disconnect is an iffy proposition when the thumb safety is set because it locks the sear to the hammer. But depending on tolerances, it could happen as Tuner described.

 

[1911Tuner]

Sand on the magazine pulling the trigger? Oh, please.

 

[9mmfan]

Scoff or don't. If you carry a gun with a safety, you should know it. Sweep it off with the draw, beginning of the stroke or end. Practice makes perfect. Just know whether or not you aim to shoot once it is level.

 

[Old Guy]

Well Gentlemen, I am not a Gunsmith, just a lowly Glock Armorer, my job at that World Shoot was to officiate, I did, the safety catch was on, on every .45 ACP on the line, all twenty contestants.

The safety committee gave a decision, who was I, a lowly Canadian (now a US Citizen!) to argue with them. It certainly made the shooters day.

All I know for sure, the pistol was fully in the holster, trigger not seen.

For those enlightened Yanks who know the Liverpool terminology, I am off downstairs for a Bacon Butty!
And with a nod to my adopted Country, Coffee, not Tea.