Saiga`12: Range Report....

[Dave McCracken]

I got up early this AM and drove out to an improvised shooting pit in the county. I took the Saiga that has been lent to me and also Number One, the 870 I've owned for about 49 years. It's been set up as a Practical gun and I wanted to do some side by side, apples to apples comparisons.

The pit gives me just 25 yards range,and after a bit of benching( benching being off the hood of the Cherokee with sandbags) with slugs and a few patterns fired with sundry buck loads, I settled in for some fast shooting.

And, as mentioned before, this is a box stock example with a 19" barrel and no tweaks.

First, the bench results.....

I do not see open sights as well as I did during the Kennedy Administration. Still, varied Winchester, Federal and KO Brenekke printed one hole groups at 25 yards. It was hard to tell the best, but mayhap Winchester's classic rifled slug took the prize.POI stayed above POA by an inch or two.Groups were centered left to right.

Center of pattern of some 00 loads seemed to run a couple inches lower, not uncommon for me in the real world. My hunch is further distances would see further divergence. Still, they were close enough that it would not matter much at typical mission distance.Again, centered LTR.

Sights are drift adjustable, so things can be made to work without trauma or headaches.

Best patterns done in very limited testing(Temps were in the 20s) were with "Old " Estate R/R 00, my load of choice. 5 rounds fired at the same target gave an extreme spread of about 16". Good performance from a Cylinder bore.

I'd love to see someone take one of these and give it the full bore target hone, long forcing cone,mild overbore and a few points of choke with a long taper coming in.

Finally, I set out five 4" discs, plastic coffee can lids, on the berm and then loaded up both 5 round magazines with those Winchester slugs. I shot fast, traversing left to right and scored on each disc. I have no stopwatch nor timer these days, but the string was fast. A second string gave similar results. No misses, total time was good and fast.

I then loaded 5 rounds of the same slug into Number One and repeated the drill twice.Any time I lost having to shuck was made up for by the better and faster sight acquisition with the peep setup on the 870.This 870 cycles like butter.

BTW, this COF was a drill I used for practice back when I shot 3 gun. Haven't done it much lately, but using it gave me a solid basis for the data.

I could still see some of each disc, so after a short break in the Jeep to warm up, I reloaded the mags with bird shot, Gun Club 1 1/8 oz loads of 7.5 shot. Starting from low gun, I shot one shot at each disc,again traversing.

I repeated the exercise with the 870, again something I used to do as a demo when I instructed for the State. Times were again similar, though the Saiga may have had a slight edge in actually cycling.

I then did some plinking with the Saiga until my cold, arthritic fingers wouldn't load the mags anymore. They were hard to load to begin with.

I finished up with a mag load of 00 fired just as fast as I could operate it. Sounded like full auto. Great for when attacked by Zombie Grizzly Bears with PMS hopped up on PCP.

Then I loaded up,policed up the trash and schlepped it all home to get ready for the Geezer League shoot at PGC.

A bit of comparisons,and all of this is subjective....

Despite it being lighter, the Saiga kicks about the same as my close to 9 lb tactical pig 870. It SHOULD handle faster thereby, but my familiarity with the 870 platform distorts the test. Controllability, IMO, is very good.

50-100K of rounds through a shotgun model will distort things.

Here's what I do not like about the Saiga, so far.....

The trigger's fairly clean but up over the weight of the gun itself. I don't know if it can be lightened easily.

Operating the trigger requires moving the firing hand out of position. at least for me. The 870's setup is better, IMO.

The mission cries for better sights.A defensive shotgun may need to become a large caliber carbine at need, and 100 yard slug capability is a big plus here.

A front sight mounted at the muzzle and a basic peep near the master eye would add lots of valuable potential to this weapon.

The lack of an automatic bolt hold open when the mag is empty is a nuisance.

The box mag setup is nice, but eliminates a top off reload.

On the positive side.....

The thing ate everything I fed it, about 40 rounds today. Not a burp. Dead sure Kalishnikov reliability, big plus.

Handles like a shotgun, rather than a rifle. The "Feel" is good, even for an old hand like me.

With practice, I could be just as fast with this as with the 870. Just give me a few K rounds and I'll get started.

I see a hand up at the back of the room.

"So, which is better?"....

Both, in trained hands, are excellent defensive, close range weapons.

Both have great track records, last forever and are adaptable to various use environments.

I like the 870s better, but it's close.

If I get a Saiga, and I might, another benefit is it will really tick off any so called Liberals who see it.

In my book, that's a definite plus.

Questions, comments, ammo donations?....

 

[john1911]

Thanks for taking the time.

My Saiga groups slugs about 8" below POA at 25 yards, buckshot is dead on at the same range. Each one is different.

 

[xx7grant7x]

MD arms 20 rnd drum.........

 

[Snarlingiron]

Thanks, Dave. Makes me want one even more. Phooey! I just bought a very lightly used Savage 111, 30-06. Nice, but it puts the Saiga a little farther out on the time line.

 

[Girodin]

Thanks for the review. It was a good read. I love my saiga but I still like to hear other peoples views. You need to try a converted one though. The ergos and trigger are much better than stock. The sights can also be improved.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Thanks, Dave. Been looking forward to this.

lpl

 

[Dave McCracken]

Thanks, folks. A couple things....

The owner read this and PM'd me. He says that doing the PG mod moves the TG and eliminates a link. The trigger cleans up nicely, and he should know.

Sights are easily changed.

No high cap mags needed here. I doubt I'll need 5 shots in any real world crisis. Other's needs may differ. Besides, 20 rounds would add 5 lbs at least and I like the handling as it is.

Note, a few hours after the test I shot a round of wobble with Superreverb and a friend of his.40 rounds of buck, and field loads slugs followed by a box of Gun Club 1 oz left no soreness then nor now.

The Saiga is not as versatile as a more conventional designed shotgun. I see few of these taking over the clays courses or turning up in goose blinds.

However, when the threat level in the immediate area needs reduction RAT now, it can be a very good choice.

Choke options would be a good thing.

 

[Ben Shepherd]

Good sights take a bit of cash and a smith that knows what he's doing. But once done......
Tried the HK diopter set that FBMG has on their shorty. SWEET.

You're running without hiccups in real cold weather you say? Good. Glad to know they work when cold.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Temps in the 20s, Ben. Cold by MD standards, if not Maine's.

 

[Gordon]

Well Dave 'get down with the tactical crowd!'
Personally, after running a Saiga with AK stock mods and also a magazine fed Valtro pump:
The ergonomics of a non vertical pistol grip stock on a SG are superior for fast pointability on target ;the big virtue of a SG in the first place.
In a sustained fire fight, say 50 rounds,the 870 tube beats a box magazine all to heck if we are talking say a 7 round mag in the gun and 3 realistic spares max.I have shot 72 rounds from an 870 in a drill under Scot Reitz (all the 12ga on my body!) and did not lose any of the 6 pull up poppers. Wow was I tired and my hands beat, but I'd be trying to load box mags in a fire fight with a SAIGA! In more normal situations I stay topped up with out looking at anything but target with an 870, I don't think a box fed shotty can do that!

 

[Girodin]

40 rounds of buck, and field loads slugs followed by a box of Gun Club 1 oz left no soreness then nor now.

That was one of things that really stood out to me after the first time I shot an S12. They are not harsh at all. 00 buck and slugs offered less perceived recoil than bird shot in some of my other shotguns

I will be interested to hear your thoughts post conversion.

n a sustained fire fight, say 50 rounds,the 870 tube beats a box magazine all to heck if we are talking say a 7 round mag in the gun

Why would we be talking about a seven round mag in the gun? There are no 7 round magazines for the saiga, rather 5, 8, 10 and now the surefires that I haven't tried but I believe holds 12 (and of course the 20 round drum). Why limit to three mags? I do not believe that is the practical limit of what one can carry particularly compared to 50 loose shotgun shells.

I have 870s and mossbergs as well as a few saigas. I would reckon that I could run through fifty aimed rounds out of my 5 ten round mags MUCH MUCH MUCH faster than one could put fifty aimed rounds out of a tube fed shotgun, and my hands will be fine and it wouldn't be real draining. I have more than five mags so if you wanted to up the round count to say 100 rounds I think that the time difference would only grow. Not only with each reload but with the added fatigue of the pump gun user. fifty rounds is a good number though because it is what you first mentioned and five saiga mags are not hard to carry. I'm not even particularly fast at the mag changes either. The saigas have their strong points and low points vis a vis tube fed guns of course. Reloading they are much faster than any tube gun until you run out of mags. That is so many rounds that I do not really worry about it. Being able to top off is nice but having ten rounds ready to go and a whole other ten only a few seconds behind is good enough for me and more than makes up for not being able to top off in my mind.

 

[eddie c-clamp]

Nice report Dave. Since I just got a Saiga I gotta get an older 870 now

 

[Gordon]

I think 3 10 round 12 ga mags would about be a realistic load out. A 30 round shell carrier is a heck of a lot more compact. A 20 round drum is like a 70 round drum on an AK, never seen one 'walking around' all day.
Id really like to run a 180 drill for 50 rounds against a Saiga guy. Course lets run it at the end of the day after I carried 40 rounds and 12 on the 870 . and you carry 5 10 round magazines. Maybe a real good trained AK operator woud beat me, after all I'm 62 .

 

[Dave McCracken]

Thanks,Gordon. In a world full of vertical grips, we know the best approach has 200 years of R&D behind it.

A BIG advantage of a shotgun for CQB is sheer,raw speed.

Doubt that? See how many top guns at any kind of clay shoot are using stocks with a separate PG.

And they're known to those folks. Ljutic's Space gun was first sold around 1970, and mimed an M16 with a straight comb stock, separate PG and high sight plane.

If the AK type stock setup had any speed advantages, the guys shooting live pigeons where each bird has thousands of dollars riding on it would all use them.

Re box mags, I can see some downside. Big ones will stop an effective low prone position, smaller ones lack capacity. And you can't top them off easily.

I can stuff shells in an 870 pretty well.I doubt any realistically sized box mag can be charged in combat as well.

 

[Gunfighter123]

Hello,
I don't shoot Trap or Skeet much anymore --- I like to shoot CQB or "Action" matches.
The Saiga S-12 is like the Colt 1911s when I first started shooting IPSC {Action} back in the mid-80s. You had to replace the sights ,trigger , thumb-safety , grip safety , etc. etc.
The S-12 is now just the "tip of the iceberg" ---- there are many people working on advancements for them like a bolt hold open , a straight insert mag well , and a staggered mag that holds ten rds. but is just a bit longer then a factory 5 rder.
After useing a custom Rem. 1100 for over 15 years ---- I retired it ---- the Saiga is the New Champ.
I don't shoot live piegons for money BUT I would put my money up against anyone if we are both starting out with a empty SG.
I have shot many matches where you had to shoot say - 3 slugs on cardboard , then 7 Steel KDs with Buckshot and then a Clay Piegon or 3 in the air -------- try that without a clip fed SG and watch your "plan" go South when you see a steel plate still up etc.
The tube-fed COMBAT SGs will become like the Cap & Ball revolvers are to todays semi-auto handguns.
Just my 2 cents --- GF123

 

[Girodin]

I think 3 10 round 12 ga mags would about be a realistic load out.

I have carried saiga mags around a fair bit and and can easily carry more, but whatever. I'm sure someone who doesn't own a saiga or any ten round mags knows better. Of course ones physical condition or personal limitations will affect what is reasonable for them.

A 20 round drum is like a 70 round drum on an AK, never seen one 'walking around' all day.

I don't disagree with you on the fact that the drums are a bit shall we say robust. It is fun and I can think of situations where it could be handy.

Re box mags, I can see some downside. Big ones will stop an effective low prone position,

I agree that this is one of the major disadvantages of a big box mag. The fact they are more easily damaged or lost than a tube mag is another. If they need replacing it is much more expensive than a mag tube spring. Gaining the advantage of several box mags requires buying them which is not inexpensive. The larger mags can be cumbersome in other regards at times. Particularly if one has not thought out how to carry them or is not practiced in reloads etc.

Yet they offer some serious advantages as well. Reload speed is often discussed but one thing I like about them is I can have an 8" SBS and still have ten rounds. No tube shotgun can pull off that trick. Now some people may not want an 8" shorty or care, but others like myself do.

Course lets run it at the end of the day after I carried 40 rounds and 12 on the 870 . and you carry 5 10 round magazines.

If you are talking about caring the same number of rounds the the weight isn't a big issue. The weight is the same. the five mags weigh practically nothing. The way they are carried (or loose shells for that mater) will make a difference.

Provided the shooter was in respectable shape I don't see them having a huge problem either way. It is interesting that you know want to change the scenario, not that I think it would matter.

Of course at the end of the day when is either of us or just about anyone very likely to get in a fifty round firefight with a shotgun? When are either of us likely to be in a fifty round firefight after having had to carry said shotgun and ammo all day? When are you likely to lug around 50 rounds of shotgun shells? I don't see it happening and shotgun games are well, for all their training benefits, just that games. As for the games though I would opine that there is a reason saigas push one into the open category of three gun irrespective of any other fact. Obviously someone somewhere decided that their box mags offer some advantage.

Id really like to run a 180 drill for 50 rounds against a Saiga guy.

If you travel outside of Kali, where the govt fears scary converted saigas with evil features, you may get a chance one day. Saigas are gaining in popularity all the time. I personally don't believe they are the end all be all of shotguns but I think they have certain advantages, as well as disadvantages. I am personally keeping the saiga by my side as my go to HD gun right now but I haven't given up on or written off my pumps and don't forcedly think the saiga will allow me a notable advantage in HD that my 870 wouldn't, rather I have been shooting the saiga more as of late and thus it is my choice. It also has a MOA similar to my AKs that I shoot regularly as well.

I can stuff shells in an 870 pretty well.I doubt any realistically sized box mag can be charged in combat as well.

"combat" such as is being described is somewhat far fetched for most users and thus not really a concern, but is an interesting discussion as a matter of theory. It is of course true that when one is out of charged mags the advantages of the box mag are lost. I do not find it that difficult to load the box mags (although I would rather be stuffing rounds in the tube then loading box mags if it came to that). One will ideally be topping off and not running a tube mag dry. I am curious though what the time difference would be between loading an empty box and chambering a round vs loading tube mag and chambering a round. I think I'll time it. Now I realize that it doesn't really matter since one must have the box mag out to load it while one can load a few rounds in a tube mag and shoot and or move. I also don't think it matters though because I always have at least three mags with my Saiga and I really have a hard time imagining the need to every shoot more than thirty times in anger. At any rate it should be an interesting thing to compare.

In the end it is not hard to set up a circumstance where one makes the other look like a dog. Kind of like my 'vette and my jeep, one is a dungpile in Moab and the other is a dungpile on the autobahn. They each have certain advantages and drawbacks. For most people doing their daily commute either will suffice just fine. The specific task and scenario determines which holds the advantage.

The same is true of various guns. The straight stock gun as pointed out is quicker pointing. It is the choice for clays. If I want to keep a shotgun in the storage space of my jeep though a PG and a folding stock outdoes the tradition stocked gun that wont fit without taking the barrel off. When the question changed so did the answer.

The biggest error people make on this forum, IMO, is presuming their needs are the same as everyone else's and writing things off out of hand. Decide what you need and pick accordingly but outrightly dismissing the value of other options for other people is foolish.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Gunfighter, I quit shooting IPSC way back when I saw a match won with a gun impractical for carrying on the street. My match gun at the time was a Series 70 with better fixed sights, trigger and a very short list of mods and addons.

It was a very good sidearm.

Same may apply to tweaked autos of any stripe. In the real wordl we may not have that much need for 10-20 rounds of 00 rat now w/o a pause for reloading.

One test remains for the Saiga, and I hesitate to do it with someone else's shotgun.

Heck, I'd hate to do it with mine.

Also, if I were to be a combat infantryman, I'd want something else for most missions. A Saiga 12 will work for house clearing, but most of the time the need for more reach and ammo is crucial.

Seeing how it works with a few spoonsful of dirt inside is the test, and some rapid drills to up the chances of failure under stressful conditions.

870s work that way, under protest.

 

[Gordon]

I would like to have an SBR Tromix Saiga. I used a tricked out Choate pistol gripped 26" 10 shot 1100 since 'SOF 2' three gun matches showed me what it would take to win. The tube loaders were a bit over the top so I went back to practical street weapons when I started retraining under Awerbuck ect. n the New Milennium.I do have a Benelli Super M-1 Super 90 with rifle sights and wood tactical stock, I just can't get the hang of it and switched back to an 870 in the middle of a 3 day course.
I think the Saigas are the coolest new SG bar far for sure. Did I mention that I shoot tricked out AKs (in Kali) as my go to carbines?I still default to an 870 SG for it's purpose.

 

[Gunfighter123]

I have been shooting a lot of SASS/Cowboy matches for the last 5 years or so ----- running a Win. 97 and only allowed 2 rds. in the SG at any time WILL teach a person how to "load over the top " and/or how to hold extra SG rds. in the shooting hand to reload with

In IPSC/3 Gun , at some clubs they had a Pump or Auto SG class and I used a High-Standard riotgun at first. Than I got a nice semi-custom Rem. 870 ---- shot that for MANY years and can say the FTF/FTE could be counted on one hand !!!!

Hey Dave ----- I will try to send you my buddies S-12 for your test. Lately me has been edgeing me out at shooting matches and this could help both you and me !!!!!

I have not tried any kind of endurance test but I have shot my S-12 without cleaning for over 400 rds. of ast. ammo and it ate all them without a single FTF/FTE !!!!

 

[SN13]

"The Saiga is not as versatile as a more conventional designed shotgun. I see few of these taking over the clays courses or turning up in goose blinds."

First: I agree that Going from Buck to a single slug and then back to buck is easier in a pump as you can just top off the tube then go.

BUT, I'd "take over the clays course" if they'd allow more than 2 in the gun. Here's the problem, if you let loose 25 targets in say 30 secs, the Saiga would outclass any other shotgun, but as it is, with Doubles being the biggest challenge, and then a 1-2 minute wait between each set, there is no advantage to capacity and speed reloading. Again, they won't take over "Goose-Blinds" because you're limited to a paltry capacity where having 10+1 and then another 10rds under 2 seconds away, has no advantage because you cannot use that many rounds legally.

The Saiga has no advantage in competitions where capacity is strictly limited and reloading plays no factor.

If you put a Drag Racer next to a jogger but limited the course to a tight, 20' diameter doughnut shaped ring track, I bet the Jogger can beat the Dragster. But the competition eliminates the advantage of speed that the car has.

Saiga has advantages where Capacity and Rate of Fire are concerned, throw it in competitions where those two features don't count, and it's just another shotgun.

All in all, good report Dave.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

"Sights are easily changed."

Well, depends on your definition of easily. Mine didn't come with a taller front sight (which it needs), so to me it would not be "easy" to try to find one and order it - is there even a taller one readily available? If not, then you'd have to commission a manufacture of one. Sorry, but I see the non-calibrated sights as THE big disadvantage of the Saiga 12. If you use an optic of some kind, doesn't matter. But it shot way high at 25 yards; unacceptable. Mine had a BHO, but I guess most of them do not (for some unfathomable reason).

Reliability and capacity are big upsides to the Saiga. Especially the reliability at high speed - they can be very very fast.

But thanks for the excellent report.

 

[dave_pro2a]

afaik, the trigger can be lightned and given a shorter reset.

 

[Hollywood Marine]

50 rounds???? Wyatt earp used a hammer double at the OK Corral. The average firefight lasts 3 to 5 seconds, the SLA shootout in L.A. and the North Hollywood bank robbery notwithstanding. Any of the shotguns/magazine types mentioned above are superior at close range to any pistol or sub-machinegun. At the end of the above mentioned 3-5 seconds, we determine the second place winner of the gunfight by determining who is no longer breathing. How many times can you reload your saiga or top off your pumpgun in that time?

 

[Girodin]

Well, depends on your definition of easily. Mine didn't come with a taller front sight (which it needs), so to me it would not be "easy" to try to find one and order it - is there even a taller one readily available? If not, then you'd have to commission a manufacture of one. Sorry, but I see the non-calibrated sights as THE big disadvantage of the Saiga 12.

Clearly you've researched out all the options to know how easy or hard it is. Google is your friend and IS an easy way to find things.

http://www.saiga-12.com/products.asp

http://www.tromix.com/images/saiga-parts/HKsights.jpg

There are many sight options for the S12 and many people change the sights to something better than the stock setup.

If you use an optic of some kind, doesn't matter.

I actually am yet to handle a saiga with an optical sight that didn't sit too high for a natural cheek weld while shooting. I have seen pictures of setups that would likely work but an optical sight is not forcedly easier to make work well and likely not cheaper than some of the other sight options.

 

[lipadj46]

I actually am yet to handle a saiga with an optical sight that didn't sit too high for a natural cheek weld while shooting

The BP-02 mount from russia sits the rail almost touching the dust cover so it is low enough to get a good cheek weld. Unfortunately we will never see the latest versions of the russian auto shotguns. They have adjustable irons, a magwell, last round bolt hold open, double stack mags, and a built in picatinny mount on the dust cover. To get a comparable custom built Saiga it will cost you.

Tube fed vs mag fed shotguns are an interesting comparison and I guess it depends what you are using them for. If you are using them strapped to your back just to breach a door than tube fed are probably better suited as you don't need to carry around box mags and you can top off the tube with ammo of choice. It the shotgun is your primary weapon the the box mags start to make more sense for faster reloads. Otherwise if tube fed weapons were faster wouldn't our AR15's and M14's have tube magazines on them like my Winchester 9522?