Saiga .223 range report

[WardenWolf]

The rail I've got centers the scope on the gun. Well mostly centers. It's actually off to the right by a couple millimeters. Not enough to bother right-handed shooters, but making it even more convenient for lefties. It's a top quality mount.

It is not inherently illegal to use a high-capacity magazine in a foreign gun, but you are required to have reduced the foreign parts count to 10 or fewer to comply with 922(r). The wording, however, says "Particularly suited or readily adaptable for sporting purposes." The ATF has also stated that it is NOT illegal to merely possess parts that, if mounted, could make your firearm non-922(r)-compliant. This is directly opposite to what they say about everything else, such as parts that, if installed, could make a firearm fully automatic, where mere possession is a felony. With the 10-round mag in your immediate possession, it would be hard to say it is not "adaptable". People who have had discussions with ATF agents have also confirmed that it is largely a tack-on charge that is added once they already have possession of your firearm for another reason, which makes sense given that they would require a warrant to seize and search your weapon. Long story short: they are not out trying to take away guns from people who are using a particular mag for target shooting purposes, and unless the high-cap mag is installed on the firearm when it is seized, it doesn't count.

That is NOT to say this will not change under the new administration, and in fact I would not be surprised if it does. In that case, I will not be using that magazine until I have replaced the 2 parts needed to bring my gun into permanent compliance. Not like I even used it at all last time I took it out. It doesn't work with my benchrest.

 

[cliffy]

MY .223 Remington Set-up

Ruger Model 77 Mark II Sporter with 6-24x44mm Burris Signature Select scope. All-American by build, at least to date, does shoot within 1 M.O.A. specs. No American Deer likes my set-up with 60 grain Nosler Partition fare at 3000 fps muzzle velocity. While I bench target shoot at 20x scope-power, I use 6x for grounding my meals off-hand. Yea, it's a $1200 package, a real bite, but everyone who ever shot it agreed; it's fun to shoot. I did change-out the trigger for an aftermarket Rifle Basic 2 pound assembly, which REALLY assists accuracy. cliffy

 

[Kymasabe]

Reminds me alot of my old Saiga

Looks alot like my old 7.62 that I built a couple of years ago. Mine changed a little from the pic below. When I sold it, it had the Galil style handguard, a lower scope mount, and a Harris bipod mounted to the barrel.
Great gun, sorry I ever got rid of it.
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i206/Kymasabe/Saiga.jpg

 

[indoorsoccerfrea]

so if my gun is entirely stock, lets say, how many foreign parts would that be? how many would i have to drop to allow use of a high cap mag?

 

[WardenWolf]

That depends on who you ask. There are some conflicting statements from the ATF whether the skeleton stock counts as 2 parts (stock and pistol grip) or 1. Because of this, you have to consider it 2.

An unmodified Saiga with standard stock has 14 foreign parts. With skeleton stock, 15.

To bring it within compliance, my philosophy is to always replace the simplest and least-sensitive components first to avoid potentially causing problems. In this case, this entails replacing the handguard and gas piston and only using US-made high capacity magazines, leaving you with a parts count of 10. That way, you are only replacing fixed parts that do not move and interact with any others.

With 2-piece handguards like many AK's have, the lower half is considered the actual handguard. This means that you may elect to buy one half of a 2-piece set and use it with your Saiga and simply leave the upper tube as it is. The problem here is that, frankly, the Galil and many other Saiga-specific handguards look like crap, as do most other US-made AK handguards. If you wish to use a normal AK-style handguard, you will also need to install a rather expensive lower handguard retainer.

The gas piston can be difficult to install. Fortunately, there are many people who have expertise with installing them. A local shop quoted me $40 to perform the installation. Dinzag of Dinzag Arms will also do it for $20 as well as sell you the appropriate gas piston, but you pay shipping both ways. Given current shipping charges, $40 local would be better than $20 + shipping, plus the ability to pick it up immediately.

 

[stubbicatt]

Unless you have function issues, I think the rifle as you have it looks pretty cool, and if it were mine (which it isn't!) I'd shoot it as is. I wonder what sort of accuracy you could get out of it with handloads and match bullets.

For years I wanted to buy one of these rifles for prairie dog shooting, mostly because my buddy has a high dollar Bushmaster setup with outstanding Zeiss optics. Were that I could field an inexpensive rig and shoot right alongside him.

I guess it could happen.

Anybody get MOA or less with one of these?

 

[Highland Ranger]

they all come with proof statements - my 223 says 121mm @ 100 yards . . . . what's the math for MOA again? Need to look for the 308 . . . . 308 is 100mm @100 yards

 

[Girodin]

Long story short: they are not out trying to take away guns from people who are using a particular mag for target shooting purposes, and unless the high-cap mag is installed on the firearm when it is seized, it doesn't count.

Long story short is that it would cost one way more if he or she was ever have charged with a violation (mind you I said charged, to say nothing about convicted) than it would to make the gun 922r compliant.

Do I think it is an ATF priority? No, but why risk running afoul of federal law? Particularly when being compliant is a simple parts swap?

Furthermore the stock saiga trick is horrible. even if you want to leave the rifle in an otherwise stock configuration you can use the FCG from dinzag. It makes a world of difference for your rifle plus you replace three parts. Its win win. The cost is less than a hand guard retainer IIRC. This is a better route than the hand guard unless you are after a specific look, because you make gains in functionality.

 

[FMJMIKE]

My Saiga is 922r compliant. It has a Tapco FCG (3), K-Var buttstock and an Ace Limited Galil pistol grip. The Tapco FCG is very nice. My Saiga has been 100% reliable for 500 rounds..........

 

[indoorsoccerfrea]

question...if i made my own buttstock and pistol grip does that count as non-foreign parts...?

and where can i buy bulk ammo cheaply?

 

[Big Daddy Grim]

How much do saiga .223's run anyway I'm always seeing different prices

 

[indoorsoccerfrea]

usually around $300. the sticker price is usually about $50 higher than what they'll actually take for it...funny story about that actually. my first gun was the saiga. thinking i was all cool and gun-savvy i walked up to a guy at a gunshow who had a saiga 223 with a 20" barrel listed at $325. i told him that i would be willing to pay $300 because "some guy at another table had his for that price". the guy merely grinned and said "deal". he stopped me as i pulled out my wallet and whispered "i'm actually selling the gun for $285..." I felt like an idiot...but at least he was nice and honest...

 

[Highland Ranger]

bought one this week for $360 in NJ (read as expensive) with the plain stock.

The skeleton stocks are about $90 more for some reason.

 

[Boxing Buffalo]

Lancaster Arms has a standard stock 16" barrel Saiga in .223 for $399.

 

[wally]

If you can live with the stock Saiga trigger (the main motivation for converting mine), the easiest way to be 922 compliant with US made magazines is to replace the furniture with one of the Tapco parts, either the Galil hand guard or the new pistol grip M4-like collapsible both purpose made for the Saigas.

Saiga has 11 of the listed foreign parts and three more listed parts are in the magazines totaling 14, so if you want to use Galil mags you need three more US parts which is best done with the US made trigger, pistol grip, & stock leaving you with 10 foreign parts (or 9 if you replace both stock and hand guard) when you use a foreign magazine over 10 rounds.

http://www.dinzagarms.com/ is an effective source for conversion information and parts.

--wally.

 

[railroader]

Promag is now making saiga 20 and 30 round mags that work in unconverted saigas. No feed ramp is needed and they run around $20. Mark

 

[SaMx]

wow, it looks like they are. Surefire makes US made polymer mags too, but they're kind of expensive.

I'm glad they make a 20 round mag.

 

[Girodin]

Promag is now making saiga 20 and 30 round mags that work in unconverted saigas. No feed ramp is needed and they run around $20. Mark

Promags are not known for their quality or reliability. I have read reports of FTF on the last round which puts them on par with most mags in terms of need for a bullet guide. A much better buy is the thermold aka master molder mags. They are US made and work sans bullet guide. I don't know what the fear buying may have pushed them up to but pre election they sold for roughly $12. They are a much better mag than the promags.

 

[WardenWolf]

I normally only use the 10-round magazine anyway. Why? Because you can't benchrest or get down low with the 30 round. It's a hunting rifle. It's supposed to be accurate. I don't just lay down craploads of fire because it's stupid and wastes money, money which I don't have, and I get a lot more enjoyment out of accurate shooting. If I had a lot of money, I'd get an AR-15 too. But I don't. This whole rig cost me under $500, and shoots better than a low-end AR-15. It's a hell of a lot more reliable, too. I'm not going to complain, because I saw the 3 guys at the next table with their $1000 AR-15's with EoTech sights fighting to make their guns work and turning in a pattern far worse than mine.

Agreed on ProMags. Don't buy their crap. Buy SureFire. SureFire's actually work. My gun's never had a misfeed, ever, regardless of which mag I'm using.

The stock Saiga trigger is fine, as long as you use a skeleton stock with it. It's comfortable, and good crisp trigger. Very easy to shoot accurately.

 

[Girodin]

Come to think of it the Thermolds are used with the 7.62x39 I dont know that they have them for the .223. In any case I wouldn't use the promags.

I am planning to use the new ar mag adapted and use AR mags.