SAR-1 + Ultimak + Burris Fastfire and Aimpoint Comp2

[Coronach]

Awhile back GunTech agreed to ship me a Burris FastFire to test out on my new Ultimak rail on my SAR-1 (Romanian AK clone). I already had a Aimpoint Comp2 on there, and what had prompted the swap was a statement that an Aimpoint on a low ring mount is about as low to the rail as you can get. GunTech was curious if the Burris was lower, so we found out.

The reason this is so critical is because the stock sights on an AK sit very low over the rail and/or gas tube. It's not like on an AR where you have a whole lot of wiggle room between the top of the rail and the sight plane. On an AK you have about 1/4" and that's it. If you want sights to co-witness, you need a low sight. The other option is to throw the sight on a QD mount and cease to care about whether or not the optic is low enough.

The Short Version:

The Aimpoint is lower and I prefer that setup to the Burris, assuming you want to cowitness the sights or use the irons through the optic. However, the Burris takes up a lot less real estate in your FOV, and if you were to put it on a QD mount, it would probably be quite good.

The Long Version:

The Burris has some pros and cons. So does the Aimpoint.

Burris Pro

Small

Light

Blocks less of your FOV

Inexpensive

Burris Con

Has a teeny tiny on-off switch

Has one brightness setting

Doesn't look like it can handle being banged around much (but I wasn't willing to test that hypothesis )

You must dismount it to change the battery

Fairly limited field of view through the optic when put on a scout-style mount

You can barely see the top of the AK's front post above the bottom of the optic, when viewed through the rear sight notch. Can you see it? yes. Can you use it? Well...at the range? Probably. In a gun game or a real-deal shooting? Probably not.

Aimpoint Pro

Much more robust

Water resistant to a greater depth than I ever plan to take my gun

Multiple brightness settings and easy to adjust in a hurry

Larger FOV through the optic at distance

Aimpoint Con

More expensive

Blocks more of your FOV

Weighs more


The Aimpoint is clearly the better of the two for a "combat optic". However, for range use, gun games or hunting, I think the Burris FastFire would work just fine. You can add a little cost and weight and put the Burris on a QD mount and still be able to use back-up irons. Another advantage of that setup is that it would put the Burris slightly higher up, and might improve its already good FOV. Ok, it won't make it any larger, but it would put the "sightable area" in a slightly more useful position.

What I mean by this is that the Aimpoint has a circular viewing area. At the very bottom are the rifle's stock iron sights. Above that the FOV widens out in a circle, and you have that whole area in which to see your red dot. The Burris is like a widescreen TV with a semi-circular top, and the whole FOV is smaller. The iron sights are baaaarely above the bottom, and you tend to lose the red dot off the top of the sight if you're not careful. Moving the sight higher would lose the irons out the bottom (but that's OK, since you're presumably using a QD mount) but allow you more "headspace" at the top.

Would I buy a Burris to put on my Ultimak-equipped AK? No, since I'm using it as a "serious" rifle. Would I buy a Burris FastFire to put on a sporting/gaming gun? Yep.

Thanks again to GunTech for loaning me the sight. Pics forthcoming.

Mike

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

Stick with the Aimpoint. It has a 10-year warranty and incredible battery life. That to me is what seals the deal. I don't like a 1 year warranty on a Burris dot costing $200. Unacceptable to me. Aimpoint has that new micro H-1, it is pricy though.

There's always the option of a light-weight, lowprofile (slim) AK side mount, put the Aimpoint ontop and you have the irons underneath. Best of both worlds, very solid and still detachable. Negative? Dot will be further back (and they are better upfront imo)..added weight and bulk even with a very nice slim sidemount, and higher over the bore than you might want to be.


You could give up wanting to co-witness, and get the ARMS throwlever mount. IIRC that is the lowest of the quick detach mounts using a lever. Otherwise, the Aimpoint ring with the big thumbscrew is the best bet as it is the lowest of all. Only thing is, I'm paranoid. For me to be happy with the mount, I'd want it tight enough to where I couldn't unscrew it by hand. That conflicts with the whole point of having the thumbscrew. That's just me. That's why I like throw levers. Easy to take off, but when they're on - they're on tight.

 

[geojap]

Thanks for the info. I've been searching for a do-it-all sight for my .223 Tromix Saiga with an Ultimak mount. I decided that the Aimpoint CompC3 (2 MOA dot) would be best optic for everything that I wanted in a scope. The Aimpoint is replacing a Burris LER 1.5x20 scope that had a problem with the Posi-Lock screw freezing up.

 

[AK103K]

I have Aimpoints(on a low Aimpoint ring) on my AK's. I also use the Ultimak. Its really the only way to go.

I've tried the Burris, Tasco, and BSA dots, and there really is no comparison. All did not hold up to even moderate use, and all had short battery life. I have yet to find one of my Aimpoints dead, and I dont even bother to turn them off anymore.

 

[GunTech]

BTW, some additional data on the FastFire. IIRC, the brightness setting is automatic, and is controlled by ambient light. Also, you don;t have to turn the unit off. If you put the plastic cover on, it lowers the intensity of the do to near zero, essentially putting it to sleep. The FastFire is a copy of the Docter sight, and some users expressed a desire for a true on/off switch. The Docter relied on the cover and sleep mode only. Battery life is extremely long on the Docter and FastFire. I think months constant on. According to Burris, in power save mode (with cover on) battery life is up to 5 years.

http://burrisoptics.com/fastfire.html

I originally bought the Burris for a pistol, but also have used it on my SMG. I didn't have a AK to try it with, but was thinking about getting one and adding an Ultimak. I ultimately bought a Galil instead, but added a railed gas tube. Looking forward to the pics.

There are mounts that improve protection of the sight available from LaRue tactical.

For example:

 

[Coronach]

Interesting!

Are those mounts QD also? If so, that would kill two birds with one stone. Also, I totally missed the ambient light feature. Now I have to go house clearing in the dark to see how well it works.

And hmm. The mounts are set up for an AR, where you need extra height above the rail to be usable. On the AK, though, you want it pretty low. I think the Burris/Docter/JPoint could benefit from a little bit of extra height on the AK, but I'm not sure about that much extra.

Mike

 

[MMcfpd]

Interesting, as I've been wrestling with what to put on a lightweight AR I'm building. The Burris FastFire in a LaRue mount (yes, they are QD) has been gaining ground in my deliberations.

My concerns were practical application - i.e., what's it like to actually use the thing - and battery life. As I'm trying to limit weight, it is an attractive option. The nearest cost Aimpoints, with excellent battery life, would be the ML2 or the H-1, and both are significantly heavier.

 

[GunTech]

I suppose it depends on what you want. I am debating an AimPoint CompM3 vs CompM4 for my M1A. The M3 and M4 have significant battery life versus the M2. I like the fact that the M4 uses a AA battery, but I'm not sure if that feature is worth the extra $250.

Since NVG isn't a biggie for my, I suspect I'll opt for the CompML3.

I haven't decided on an optic for the Galil. Right now I've got a Millet red dot. I may try out the Burris FastFire on it. I'm curious as to how the railed gas tube on the Galil compares to the Ultimak on the AK height-wise.

Here's detail of the Galil with the railed gas tube:

and for those interested, I tried mounting the FastFire on my M1a using a Sage clip guide scope mount base

 

[Coronach]

The ultimak should be very similar in height to the Galil rail.

Also, LaRue seems to have a low profile mount for the Irondot that looks like it puts it significantly lower than the other mounts, but that's a guestimate from the web pictures. Higher than stock, so still can't cowitness, but low enough that you should have good cheekweld, QD so you can ditch it, and protected, so some of the durability issues are addressed.

Mike

 

[AK103K]

I've tried Larue and ARM's lever mounts with the Aimpoints on my AK's. It is nice to be able to pop them of, but they are all pretty much made for the AR's and sit to high to co witness on the AK's. Once you have something that co witness's, you dont want anything else.

The biggest advantage to the Aimpoints is battery life. Some of the later models are now up to about 9 years constant on. The M2/ML2's are 1 year plus. Like I said before, I dont even bother turning them of now, I just change the batteries once a year. I used to change them when I switched the clocks, along with the smoke detectors, but dont evn bother with that now.

The self adjusting light would be a nice thing to have. It is one thing that many have a problem with when going back and forth from light to dark. What I usually do is close the front cover on my Aimpoints, set the dot to a comfortable level, and use them like the old OEG type sights. Works great and there is no need to adjust it again until you pop the cover open.

 

[Coronach]

The one potential problem with the ambient light fixture is when you shoot from an area of one light extreme into an area of another (eg, shooting from the dark into the light, or vice versa). I say potential because I haven't tried it yet, but it seems to be a possibility.

Mike

 

[Coronach]

AK and Aimpoint.

 

[Coronach]

AK and Burris. Scotch included for scale.

 

[Coronach]

More AK. More Burris. More scotch.

 

[MMcfpd]

I haven't yet been happy with either of the sights I've tried on my AKM (both Bushnells - Trophy 28 and an MP) and with the added impetus of perhaps wanting a lightweight sight for an AR, I think I'm going to go ahead and get the Burris/LaRue combo and try it out on both rifles. With the QD mount it ought not be too difficult to go to irons on the AK if need be and, well, I've never been very good with the irons on that particular gun anyway.

ETA - it will be going on an Ultimak on the AK.

 

[GunTech]

Coronach

Thanks for the post. Pictures really helped. I too have concerns about the ruggedness of the FastFire. I'd use irons, but these old eyes can't really hack iron sights any more.

I've decided to definitely put an AimPoint on the M1A, but will give the Burris a try on the Galil.

 

[Gordon]

Ya'll should read Pat Roger's take on co witness in the latest SWAT. While my AR is Aimpoint co witnessed on a Swan Gooseneck and my AK is co witnessed on my ultimak AK, he has lots of observations on what people actually DO with such a nifty set up. A very eye opening article! I been looking over my rigs and wondering "do I concentrate on the holy front sight, or the dot?"

 

[Coronach]

I have that article dogeared for my next Throne Session, because of this little experiment. Since I dismounted the Aimpoint to fiddle with it for this experiment, now is a perfect time to make any zeroing adjustments. I just slapped it back on for the pictures.

FWIW both the FF and the Aimpoint are good to go under range conditions. Target acquisition is fast and accuracy is as good as the rifle will allow. Where the two will diverge is under real-world usage. Real world use is not in good weather on a well-lit range with fresh batteries and caution taken to make sure your borrowed optic doesn't get banged around unduly.

I'm going to stick with the Aimpoint, but wow is the FF nice in the whole situational-awareness aspect of things...the scope blocks almost NOTHING from your view. Can't say the same of the Aimpoint.

Mike

 

[rocinante]

I have a Kobra 3rd gen red dot coming to me, hopefully today. I have a scout mount which replaces the rear sights on my rifle. Right now I have a aimpoint clone with a goose neck mount and it does the job but sits too high for me. I hope the kobra sits a lot lower but not sure because for a collimator red dot it is large. All in all it seems the Russians are not big on cheek welds in their shooting style because just about all their side mounts are high and to the left.

 

[GunTech]

Burris FastFire, Railed gas tube and Galil - match made in heaven.

After Getting my FastFire back from Coronach, I decided to mount it on my Galil. I don't know if it's just serendipity, but the FastFire aligns with the Galil's sights like it was made for the rifle.

I'm afraid the pictures probably don't do the sight justice, but hopefully, you get the idea.

 

[Coronach]

Oh, that's outstanding. It totally won't work with a standard AK, but the higher sights of the Galil make it work perfectly. Niiiice.

Mike

 

[GunTech]

Followup:
Burris now has a Picatinny mount for the Fastfire that includes protection. The Picatinny Protector. $70 from SWFA (plus FastFire). I've ordered one and will report.

 

[Coronach]

Nice!

 

[cbecker33]

I'm very interested to see what you think of the protector...I'm thinking abouth this setup on a 9mm AR I am building.

-Chris

 

[Walkalong]

The LaRue setup has a rear sight built in to it so if the dot fails, you still have iron sights. As soon as funds permit, this is going to replace the Scout Scope setup I have now. My cheapo dot on it goes in and out. ($48..duh) I like the Scout Scope set up, but this LaRue looks better to me if you want to go with the small Burris FastFire type sights.