Scenario - As you pull into your driveway, criminals flee from your house

[leadcounsel]

Scenario that got me thinking today -

A girl I'm seeing left my front door unlocked while we were out all day and I returned to find it unlocked. Thankfully nothing was taken.

However, what if you are returning home and pulling into your driveway and you see 1 or more people fleeing from your house, with your property?

I know it's not legal to shoot to defend property... but what is your instant reaction? Consider some fleeing people could be armed? Perhaps there are more inside, armed?

I'm thinking that I'd immediately try to take note of the descriptions of the fleeing people, and then park a safe distance away and call the police. Arm myself with my camera and pistol at the ready and take pictures of anyone suspicous...

What would you do?

 

[Texan Scott]

Sounds like you got it right... but forget the camera. Focus on your safe retreat. Back off, keep down, wait for the cops. It might be awhile before they arrive. Stay safe and don't add to yourself to the list of problems.

 

[smalls]

You run 'em over, of course!

Seriously, I'd pull back out, head the other direction and call the police. Stay clear of your home untill they arrive, you don't know if any of them are still in there.

 

[wlewisiii]

Sit still & call 911. Let the police clear the house. Only do _anything_ else if actively threatened. Property isn't worth killing or dying for.

 

[Creature]

Try to take pictures of them with my cellphone ...and call the police.

 

[1-1 Banger]

Well, seeing as they got as far as escaping unscathed from my house, that means they likely offed my dog. So someone is getting shot

 

[scaatylobo]

Persue - IF possible

But I would also consider the fact that the house was not cleared or secured,so might be VERY prudent to call 9/11 and keep house under control from OUTSIDE till the troops arrive.

Let them clear the house then worry about those that got away.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by 1-1 Banger: Well, seeing as they got as far as escaping unscathed from my house, that means they likely offed my dog. So someone is getting shot

Promoting unlawful acts is not permitted here.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Promoting unlawful acts is not permitted here.

With all due respect, the OP asked "What would you do?"; I don't see where 1-1 Banger suggested that anyone else take his course of action.

Of course, I don't think it's wise or prudent to write something like that on a public forum, either................

 

[zxcvbob]

Block their car in, and wait to see what happens. If they run away, good riddance (I have insurance.) If they come after me, shoot 'em.

 

[M2 Carbine]

I know it's not legal to shoot to defend property...

Wrong.
It depends on your state. Deadly force can be used to protect property in Texas (I don't know about other states).

However, what if you are returning home and pulling into your driveway and you see 1 or more people fleeing from your house, with your property?

All things considered I would probably shoot them.
I have an extra (larger than my carry handgun) pistol and rifle in all my vehicles.

There are cases of (legal) deadly force being used to stop criminals fleeing from the owner's house (neighbor's house to).

Texas law. Notice the "to prevent the other who is fleeing" part".


§ 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is
justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or
tangible, movable property:.............
........(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of
arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the
nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
........(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing
immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated
robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the
property; and
........(3) he reasonably believes that:
(A) the land or property cannot be protected or
recovered by any other means; or
(B) the use of force other than deadly force to
protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or
another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

 

[jeepnik]

Stuff ain't worth jail or a lawsuit. It sure ain't worth getting killed for. Observe and report.

 

[zxcvbob]

God bless Texas! Just be careful of that "nighttime" part.

 

[beatledog7]

OP got it right.

If you see this, keep going. Don't even slow down. Giving these guys the sense they've been caught will cause them to flee if you're lucky, but to strike out at you if you're not.

Stay at a safe distance. Call 9-1-1, observe, take notes on license plate and perp's appearance, as well as anything you actually see them taking out. Take pictures if you can do it without being observed. And remember, all of this from a safe distance.

Stuff is stuff. Texas law notwithstanding, none of the stuff in your house has enough material value to justify taking matters into your own hands and placing yourself at risk, especially if it's properly insured. For me, personal defensive arms are just that; for personal defense.

Wait for police to arrive and do their job before going in.

 

[smalls]

What's legal, an what's smart are sometimes two different things.

Why would you willingly put yourself in harms way? And why would you shoot someone you didn't have to? That's not what responsible gun ownership is about. It's about protecting yourself if you're forced to.

It's best to back off, and let the police do their job, and let the insurance company do theirs. Your job is to stay alive.

 

[leadcounsel]

I think this scenario, and being burglarized in general, is a good reason to consider installing hidden and open surveillance cams in your home and on the exterior.

 

[zxcvbob]

It's best to back off, and let the police do their job, and let the insurance company do theirs. Your job is to stay alive.

Not to disagree, but good luck with the police part. Around here, the police investigate murders and armed robberies, and they write traffic tickets (especially seat belt violations.) They're not really interested in anything in-between. You have to really hound them just to get a police report so you can file an insurance claim, and even then they sometimes won't do it.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by M2 Carbine: All things considered I would probably shoot them [(people fleeing from ... house, with ... property).]

What evidence do you envision presenting to demonstrate that a reasonable person would have believed that the property could not have been recovered by any other means, or that the use of force other than deadly force would have exposed you to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury?

Do you believe it likely that you would be able to prove, with a preponderance of the evidence, that such force had been necessary, should a civil suit be brought against you?

Do you think it worth the risk to expose yourself to expose yourself to gunfire from an unseen assailant simply because you think that the use of deadly force would be found justifiable under the criminal code in your jurisdiction?

 

[Walkalong]

If they are running off with my laptop and TV, that is exactly my plan. Leave some replaceable goodies out for them to take, so they will get out in a hurry. Works if I am asleep in the other room, separated by a stout door, or if I am away. My family and guns are safe.

Call the cops, write down every detail you notice about people, cars, etc.

I am not going to play policeman to save my TV. My family is another matter. All heck will break loose if they are in danger.

 

[kayak-man]

Great Question!

If I see people running from my house, I'd like to think that I would do what the OP suggested: Keep on trucking, call in the cavalry, and maybe, if I can do it safely, try to watch what happens, and be a good witness.

If the OP will permit it, I'd like to throw a few twists into this scenario:

Would you behave and act the same if, when you get home you see people fleeing from your house, but only AFTER you have pulled into the driveway and put the car in park?

Would you stay there, or try to retreat? If you normally pull forward into your driveway, and back out, where are you going to be looking if you decide to retreat? At the guys in front of you, because you never turn your back on a potential threat... or behind you, so you don't get T-Boned as you back out? Maybe you can just use your mirrors, and still keep the threat in sight, but the way my driveway is, you have to turn around to be able to check and make sure you're not going to get hit.


Alternatively, what are you going to do if you see the suspicious characters fleeing, and you notice that your wife/sister/mother/grandmother/girlfriend/loved-one's vehicle is in the driveway? Are you going to wait to see if everyone clears out, or are you going in? If you go in, are you going through the closest door, even if it is in the middle of the house, and will leave your back to an uncleared room, or the staircase if the basement/second story hasn't been cleared?
Or are you going to take the time to go through the most tactically sound door, to minimize the amount of uncleared house behind you? Is there some kind of middle ground or third option that you can choose?
Where does your firearm choice fall on the scale between whats "smart" and whats fast? Are you going to take the time to strap on a full sized pistol and/or grab the shotgun.... or are you just going to yank your .38snubby out of the glove box? How does your entry decision affect your firearm decision and vise-versa?

Final question: Anybody else think I might be over thinking this one?

Thanks again to LeadCounsel for the question, and to everyone else for tolerating my detour further down the rabbit hole.

Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson

 

[Rexster]

leadcounsel, your plan seems quite good, until the camera part. Taking a picture involves focusing one's attention upon one subject, and may cause the photographer to miss something, such as an unnoticed accomplice that may be flanking you. (Burglars frequently have look-outs!)

I am not saying that photographing bad guys is always a bad idea, just calling attention to the risks. Your camera and experience level are also factors. I have fairly high-end photo equipment, and have practiced on moving subjects, such as swim meets, marathon runners, soccer players, flying birds, and moving vehicles. I would, however, consider photographing a crime-in-progress to best be done if the bad guys do not know I am there.

Personally, being a peace officer, who is usually heavily armed when out and about, my reaction to this scenario might be a bit different than what is advisable for a private citizen, though when off the clock, out of uniform, and therefore not wearing armor, and without a police radio, I, too, should carefully weigh the risk of engaging, especially when outnumbered, and considering I am not as young as I used to be.

 

[smalls]

Not to disagree, but good luck with the police part. Around here, the police investigate murders and armed robberies, and they write traffic tickets (especially seat belt violations.) They're not really interested in anything in-between. You have to really hound them just to get a police report so you can file an insurance claim, and even then they sometimes won't do it.

Either way, I'm more worried about my safety than a TV, or any other inanimate object in my house. Whether insurance replaces it or not, it's not worth dying, or the burdens of shooting someone to save. I went years without a TV, I can go without again while I save up for a new one.

If the police don't show up to clear my house, I'll stay the night at a friends house. Or just keep calling until they're annoyed enough to come check it out.

 

[M2 Carbine]

What evidence do you envision presenting to demonstrate that a reasonable person would have believed that the property could not have been recovered by any other means, or that the use of force other than deadly force would have exposed you to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury?

Do you believe it likely that you would be able to prove, with a preponderance of the evidence, that such force had been necessary, should a civil suit be brought against you?

Do you think it worth the risk to expose yourself to expose yourself to gunfire from an unseen assailant simply because you think that the use of deadly force would be found justifiable under the criminal code in your jurisdiction?

Simply running from inside my house "burglary" is enough evidence to shoot them. Remember the law, "to prevent the other who is fleeing (from a burglary)".
Trying to confront them might put me at risk. Shooting them probably will not.

This has happened in the past and there was no question that the homeowner was in the right (No Billed "good shoot" by the Grand Jury).
Fellow pulling up his driveway saw 2-3 men running out of his house. As I recall he killed one and "blew another's arm off" with his Deer rifle that he kept in his pickup.

A fellow in Houston, from his second story window, shot a man trying to steel his car.(No billed by the Grand Jury).

You can "what if" all day long but the bottom line is if I shoot them, and I will, it will be legal.

The risk?
Of course I will try to prevent being hurt but I will try to "stop" anyone that has broken into my place and I will use up to the maximum amount of force allowed by law.


Frankly I am always disappointed by the number of people in these kind of threads that say they won't stand up for themselves and what is theirs.
No, the "stuff" isn't that important but, at least to me, stopping the criminal is important. I figure if I allow them to get away the next house they break into one of the people they hurt may be YOUR wife or daughter. (As a Policeman I saw this kind of thing. Someone didn't stop the thug when they had the chance and they went on to seriously hurt/kill someone)



.

 

[beatledog7]

Frankly I am always disappointed by the number of people in these kind of threads that say they won't stand up for themselves and what is theirs.

Amazing attitude. I'm disappointed by the number of supposedly responsible gun owners who seem to be itching for a reason to shoot someone.

I'll say it again--all of my stuff is insured, and none of my stuff is worth shooting someone. I'm pretty darn sure that neither is any of yours.

Having a legal right to shoot a robber who is posing no harm to you or your family or anyone else doesn't make shooting him the right thing to do.

 

[smalls]

You mean someone shot two fleeing criminals, killing one, and he got off?

I'm not saying crime shouldn't be punished, but I'm not willing to play judge, jury, and most importantly NOT executioner.

Doesn't the law in Texas say something about property being stolen has to be like a car to get to work, or rent money, work tools, or something important to your survival?

I think I remember a case where the perp was in the process of stealing a roofer's work truck, with shingles for a job in the back. IIRC, he took multiple shots, and the shooting was deemed legal because he needed the truck and it's contents to make a living, and was not easily replaceable.