Scenario II

[RPZ]

Ahh -- you use the cell phone to call 911, not your wife.

That might, as I have said, be an option. In a robbery it is doubtful they will check the restrooms - it is a trap for them. However, the last thing I want to be doing is to be talking on my phone, even hands free, if one of them barrels into the restroom or starts pounding on the door, answering questions - "What city please?"... (tick tock tick tock) "Police fire or ambulance?", "what is your name?"......"And what are you reporting ....?" etc .... etc .... etc. They might not charge in there, they might just approach and listen.
Maybe, but I am not sure I would go with that. In a restaurant there will not be a cook or many kitchen staff who do not have a cell phone; I'll let them call 911. I am going to be doing what I can to take a position to my advantage, use my brain, and trying, by listening, to discern what exactly is going on out of view, and deciding if I want to act on that or not.

 

[Walkalong]

Everybody has a plan ----- until the gun fire erupts.

Yep, we do disaster drills here at work all the time, and despite classes and preparation, they are always a disaster. Or "learning opportunities" as they like to call them.

Your brain is your biggest weapon in a bad situation. Have items that will be helpful with you, stay calm, and use your head. Thinking up scenarios and acting them out is a waste of time IMHO, because it isn't going to happen that way. Train, be prepared, stay calm, don't do anything stupid.

 

[scaatylobo]

Yeah, why would you take the path of least resistance and attempt to use the cell phone first (which seems like the most sensible solution under the circumstances), when you can walk out shirtless with a towel wrapped around your gun. Your way seems much better than the "metrosexual connection" <eyeroll>

PLEASE DO READ = before posting.
I wear a COVER SHIRT [ cover my gun ] and that would not look like a "towel,or rag " in my hand duh uh.
And if my wife is in harms way,I will be the first one to be THERE [ remember that the police are minutes away = when SECONDS COUNT ].
And as I recall the OP,this is a SHOTS FIRED incident.
Please don't insult the reaction of others IF you don't actually know how they will present themselves.
After just over a quarter century as an LEO ---- I think I have a pretty good idea how to do so and not look like a threat to anyone ------ including an LEO or shooter.

 

[OC-Trainer]

Please don't insult the reaction of others IF you don't actually know how they will present themselves.

Maybe you should follow your own advice. Your insinuation was that someone who chooses to call 911 first (almost always correct) is somehow less manly than someone who rushes out of the bathroom thinking they are Rambo. This isn't Hollywood. Calling for backup or 911 for help, is safety 101. You may very well be the only person in that situation that could do so. Or you could just assume that someone else has or will, i.e. The Bystander Effect. As former LEO, you should know this.

An emergency is any situation that requires immediate assistance from the police, fire department or ambulance. Examples include:

• A fire

• A crime, especially if in progress

• A car crash, especially if someone is injured

• A medical emergency, especially symptoms that require immediate medical attention

Important: If you're not sure whether the situation is a true emergency, officials recommend calling 911 and letting the call-taker determine whether you need emergency help.

When to call 911

 

[scaatylobo]

Maybe you should follow your own advice. Your insinuation was that someone who chooses to call 911 first (almost always correct) is somehow less manly than someone who rushes out of the bathroom thinking they are Rambo. This isn't Hollywood. Calling for backup or 911 for help, is safety 101. You may very well be the only person in that situation that could do so. Or you could just assume that someone else has or will, i.e. The Bystander Effect. As former LEO, you should know this.



When to call 911

Your interpretation of my comments are to say the least rude.

Rambo is a clown act by an actor,and only a fool or a clown would emulate such.

And being the "new male" and going to your cell phone before even KNOWING what has happened is a silly and foolish act.

And WHERE IN THE WORLD did your get the "rushing out of the bathroom"????.

IF your loved on is in the line of fire [ VERY possible ] and you use your metrosexual cell phone,you might live to go to her funeral !.

That is not how I was raised and NOT how I was trained.

I do believe the OP was asking what "I WOULD DO" and not how you would JUDGE what I would do.

Roll as you please,but PLEASE don't judge others by your standards .

ALSO NOTE = all were dead in LESS THAN 8 MINUTES at this last attack.

How long before the police arrive and take action ??.

Knowing the law,KNOWING when and how to use what degree of force are THE deciding factors in how you handle an ACTIVE SHOOTER.

 

[OC-Trainer]

The irony is palpable. The more you right, the more you embarrass yourself. Quit while you are ahead.

 

[Jeff White]

If you want to argue in this manner take it to private message. The next post with a personal attack gets the thread closed and infractions handed out.

 

[Plan2Live]

I watched the video of the two bounty hunters and the subject gunning each other down in the car dealership and aside from the number of rounds fired the thing that stuck out the most to me was the non-stop screaming. So I'm guessing if the screamers react to one gunshot the way they reacted in the real word shootout I doubt your family member would ever hear their phone even if it wasn't on silent.

 

[shafter]

911 is a recorded line. You don't have to wait to answer a bunch of questions. Quickly spit out what's happening and put your phone down. They'll figure it out.

 

[hdwhit]

scaatylobo wrote:
HUH, why would you guess that I don't wear a COVER shirt ?.

I never said you weren't wearing a cover shirt. I took you at your word when you said that you would:

My response is to take off my shirt that covers my gun,covering the gun and to walk out as casual as possible .

But, even if I take it for granted you're wearing two shirts so that you don't walk out of the rest room barechested, your hand still has a rag wrapped around it and that's going to attract attention - both from the people you walk by as well as the potential shooter.

When you emerge from the restroom with a shirt wrapped around your hand, you're still the NEW thing in the room and you're still the aberrant thing in the room so you attract attention. And attracting attention to yourself means you might as well be wearing a flag that says, "Shoot Me, First!"

 

[scaatylobo]

I never said you weren't wearing a cover shirt. I took you at your word when you said that you would:



But, even if I take it for granted you're wearing two shirts so that you don't walk out of the rest room barechested, your hand still has a rag wrapped around it and that's going to attract attention - both from the people you walk by as well as the potential shooter.

When you emerge from the restroom with a shirt wrapped around your hand, you're still the NEW thing in the room and you're still the aberrant thing in the room so you attract attention. And attracting attention to yourself means you might as well be wearing a flag that says, "Shoot Me, First!"

REALLY ? ,draped over my hand as if it were a towel.
I will not be screaming "shoot me".
AND if a turd is actually spraying rounds all over,and my wife is in danger,I will be responding accordingly.
Do as YOU please,and I will do as I plan AND train [ yes actually start shooting with hand covered.]
Remember ,its MY loved one that may be in real danger.
I PROMISE,if I think its your loved one's = I will take NO ACTION.

 

[hdwhit]

Good Ol' Boy wrote:
Jeff gave a good example of what might be a good reaction IDEALLY. But how many would actually have the composure to do that?

That was my point, exactly. Jeff's answer is nearly textbook perfect. I could only hope I had the compose to think things through as thoroughly. Of course that's what training is for.

 

[hdwhit]

scaatylobo wrote:
REALLY ? ,draped over my hand as if it were a towel.

Well:

First of all, a shirt is manifestly NOT a towel.

Second, a yard and a half of towel is not a common feature for people to have wrapped around their hand in a fast food restaurant, so when you stroll out of the rest room looking like someone who thinks they're a waiter at the Chateau Frontenac, you're going to be the center of attention.

And Target Number One.

You might not be vocalizing, "Shoot Me", but every action you have taken up to this point is screaming that to the shooter (if it is a shooter). Remember, what you're ignoring is that the OP's scenario also posits the possibility of a police officer having shot a bad guy and now here you come out of the rest room with a cloth wrapped around your gun hand.

In that situation, you're a legal kill.

 

[hdwhit]

scaatylobo wrote:
AND if a turd is actually spraying rounds all over,and my wife is in danger,I will be responding accordingly.
Do as YOU please,and I will do as I plan AND train [ yes actually start shooting with hand covered.]
Remember ,its MY loved one that may be in real danger.
I PROMISE,if I think its your loved one's = I will take NO ACTION.

Spare me the platitudes.

And read the OP again to understand the scenario.

I have no doubt everyone on this forum would act in defense of a loved-one in a situation where there was an active shooter continuing to fire, but that's not what the OP presented. A single shot has been fired, not a "turd is actually spraying rounds all over" - something that you apparently added out of your imagination. And when you stroll out of the restroom into the quiet dining area with everyone who is going to run having already run off and the rest paralyzed with fear and uncertainty with a shirt wrapped around your hand, you become the center of attention and thus, Target One.

You don't save anyone, you die.

And if the shooter was a police officer - as posited by the OP - you die as a criminal.

 

[OC-Trainer]

Do as YOU please,and I will do as I plan AND train [ yes actually start shooting with hand covered.]

Really? Maybe you can post some video of you training this technique. I'm sure many would be interested in seeing this.

 

[9MMare]

Even the most dense of criminals knows there arent any actual 'towels' in restaurant bathrooms unless you are at a 5 star restaurant with an attendant. It would seem odd.

 

[scaatylobo]

Spare me the platitudes.

And read the OP again to understand the scenario.

I have no doubt everyone on this forum would act in defense of a loved-one in a situation where there was an active shooter continuing to fire, but that's not what the OP presented. A single shot has been fired, not a "turd is actually spraying rounds all over" - something that you apparently added out of your imagination. And when you stroll out of the restroom into the quiet dining area with everyone who is going to run having already run off and the rest paralyzed with fear and uncertainty with a shirt wrapped around your hand, you become the center of attention and thus, Target One.

You don't save anyone, you die.

And if the shooter was a police officer - as posited by the OP - you die as a criminal.

Again, I just hope you bother to actually train for ANY scenario.
"bother".
And have a bit of teaching & training to back my intended actions.
AND as I was a REAL LEO [ not one from YOUR pretend dreams ] I am POSITIVE that no LEO would shoot a man for having anything in his hand = OTHER THAN a gun pointed at him.
BEEN THERE,DONE THAT.
SO,in your "not so humble opinion" --------- try and actually talk to real cops and see how many they have shot for even having a gun in hand.
BET your about to learn the difference between a threat and an ARMED CITIZEN is.
Guess you can now 'talk among yourselves' as you seem to have others that live in your world = I am done .

 

[OC-Trainer]

I am POSITIVE that no LEO would shoot a man for having anything in his hand = OTHER THAN a gun pointed at him.

Exhibit A: Los Angeles police shot and critically injured a man after he raised an arm he had wrapped in a towel toward officers Friday in Los Feliz, police said.

Now what do you have to say?

 

[RPZ]

How things have BEEN changed. That is MY answer to that one.

 

[9MMare]

Again, I just hope you bother to actually train for ANY scenario.
"bother".
And have a bit of teaching & training to back my intended actions.
AND as I was a REAL LEO [ not one from YOUR pretend dreams ] I am POSITIVE that no LEO would shoot a man for having anything in his hand = OTHER THAN a gun pointed at him.
BEEN THERE,DONE THAT.
SO,in your "not so humble opinion" --------- try and actually talk to real cops and see how many they have shot for even having a gun in hand.
BET your about to learn the difference between a threat and an ARMED CITIZEN is.
Guess you can now 'talk among yourselves' as you seem to have others that live in your world = I am done .

Exhibit A: Los Angeles police shot and critically injured a man after he raised an arm he had wrapped in a towel toward officers Friday in Los Feliz, police said.

Now what do you have to say?

Unfortunately, from other cases in the news, it seems they will shoot you for having nothing in your hand, merely reaching. (verdict not yet in.)

Elsewhere I was recently told by at least 5 posters that they would *never ever* reach for & hand over their cc weapons in a car stop **if requested by the officer** because they feared a partner or later arriving officer would shoot them. (And as such...how would that other officer even know what they were reaching for? What if the request was for ID?) The other self-proclaimed experienced posters swore it was incredibly dangerous to do so and they would refuse the direct order from the original officer.

 

[OC-Trainer]

Unfortunately, from other cases in the news, it seems they will shoot you for having nothing in your hand, merely reaching. (verdict not yet in.)

Sadly, this is true. Pay any attention to the news and it is abundantly clear that these statement are utterly absurd:

I was a REAL LEO [ not one from YOUR pretend dreams ] I am POSITIVE that no LEO would shoot a man for having anything in his hand = OTHER THAN a gun pointed at him.

In fact, that ^ may be one of the most preposterous statements I've ever seen written on any forum of this nature.

Elsewhere I was recently told by at least 5 posters that they would *never ever* reach for & hand over their cc weapons in a car stop **if requested by the officer** because they feared a partner or later arriving officer would shoot them. (And as such...how would that other officer even know what they were reaching for? What if the request was for ID?) The other self-proclaimed experienced posters swore it was incredibly dangerous to do so and they would refuse the direct order from the original officer.

Although not much surprises me anymore, the fact that folks are making those sorts of statements is extremely foolish and baffling.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Unfortunately, from other cases in the news, it seems they will shoot you for having nothing in your hand, merely reaching. (verdict not yet in.)

Elsewhere I was recently told by at least 5 posters that they would *never ever* reach for & hand over their cc weapons in a car stop **if requested by the officer** because they feared a partner or later arriving officer would shoot them. (And as such...how would that other officer even know what they were reaching for? What if the request was for ID?) The other self-proclaimed experienced posters swore it was incredibly dangerous to do so and they would refuse the direct order from the original officer.

Well, a guy recently got killed for reaching for his license after attempting to disclose that he has a concealed carry permit and is carrying (he unfortunately chose to say "I have a gun" to accomplish this), so I can see how people feel that way.

We don't have concealed carry here but I still keep my hands on the steering wheel when stopped, these days even more than in the past, with all the attacks on police lately the officer is even nervous approaching an old lady... I was stopped last year for expired tags and there was actually a second officer behind the car covering the one at my window.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Unfortunately, from other cases in the news, it seems they will shoot you for having nothing in your hand, merely reaching. (verdict not yet in.)

Elsewhere I was recently told by at least 5 posters that they would *never ever* reach for & hand over their cc weapons in a car stop **if requested by the officer** because they feared a partner or later arriving officer would shoot them. (And as such...how would that other officer even know what they were reaching for? What if the request was for ID?) The other self-proclaimed experienced posters swore it was incredibly dangerous to do so and they would refuse the direct order from the original officer.

If I were in a concealed carry state and were carrying while driving and would be stopped and the officer would ask for my weapon I would offer to get out of the car and let him or her take it so I wouldn't have to touch it in their presence.

 

[RPZ]

It is really off topic; but the way to deal with a traffic stop is simple. Have your DL, CHL (if you have one or are required to show), registration (if required anymore), insurance doc to hand - not in your wallet, purse, handbag, glove box etc - at all times together and quickly accessible in your car. In one neat stack where you can scoop them up - on the passenger seat if possible - or somewhere center console. You do not want to be seen leaning over to the passenger side, glove box, or floor. Engine off, driving/headlights off. If it is at night, turn your dome light on so that they have a clear view inside the car. Both hands high on the steering wheel with DL etc pinched between your left hand thumb and forefinger. If you are prepared, this can all be done before they step out of their cruiser. If you have no passenger, keep the passenger seat clear of everything whatsover. No cell phone, no shiny objects - nothing. If you do have passengers get in the habit of telling them to remember where their ID is, and if requested for ID inform the PO that "my DL is in my purse, do you want me to take it out?", or "my state ID is in my wallet in my right front pants pocket, do you want me to take it out?" If so to move slowly and without fidgeting.

As far as firearms go, I agree with others who have said. "I'm not going to touch it... it is [in the glove box, right hip, under the seat etc] .. YOU take it out". If there is any arguement tell them you "fear fior your safety, you are "not going reach for it and put my life in danger"... "So now, what do you want me to do?"

It is outrageous that the citizens of this country have been reduced to this, but that is just the way it is. For now.

 

[9MMare]

Well, a guy recently got killed for reaching for his license after attempting to disclose that he has a concealed carry permit and is carrying (he unfortunately chose to say "I have a gun" to accomplish this), so I can see how people feel that way.

Yes, that is the incident I was referring to.

We don't have concealed carry here but I still keep my hands on the steering wheel when stopped, these days even more than in the past, with all the attacks on police lately the officer is even nervous approaching an old lady... I was stopped last year for expired tags and there was actually a second officer behind the car covering the one at my window.

May I ask where you are located?