School me on progressive presses
- Thread starter bensdad
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Win1892
Member
I love my 650 but I do not like changeovers. I keep my 650 rigged for 45ACP but change to 38WCF, 9mm, and 38/357 about every 12 months. I punch out a few thousand of each then it's back to 45ACP.
I have about six other caliber changeovers but choose to single stage instead.
I will say, however, when the 650 is dialed in I can bang out 1500 a night with little effort.
I have about six other caliber changeovers but choose to single stage instead.
I will say, however, when the 650 is dialed in I can bang out 1500 a night with little effort.
You may be right...just because they own one doesn't mean they have any sense. I wouldn't trust anyone's judgments or recommendations that couldn't run a press that's as simple as the load-master. I think Lee summed it up pretty well when they said "fool proof priming".
BigJakeJ1s
Member
Scott,
Thank you for bringing this to my attention. After reading your reply, I immediately went to the Graf's website to update my spreadsheet.
The maximum difference between Dillon's and Graf's prices is for the all-up changeover on the 650. Dillon's price is $310, Graf's is $307, which is MUCH CLOSER to the equivalent Hornady changeover at $201.
I sincerely apologize for the careless $3 error on my part, and I hope nobody was mislead by my negligently unfair comparison.
Andy
P.S. Graf's prices for the 550 conversions were actually slightly higher than Dillon's.
I just went through this. Flush with money I was ready to do it. I landed on the LnL-AP side of the bench. I straight up liked the design of the press. I liked the case and bullet feeder. Plus caliber changes are cheaper and faster.
But life intervened. My HVAC system threw up and failed on us. So most of the money I had went to the new system.
With the money left over I bought the next best thing in a Lee Classic Turrent.
But life intervened. My HVAC system threw up and failed on us. So most of the money I had went to the new system.
With the money left over I bought the next best thing in a Lee Classic Turrent.
FWIW, I was looking at the adds for the LnL...and the 650. My biggest "need" was for the powder checker....but I can do that visually.
My first 7000 rounds were done on a single stage Rockchucker, 15 years ago. Since then, there has been another 68,000 done on a Dillon 550B.
Yes the LnL or 650 would load faster, but I timed myself the other day and it took 17 minutes to do 100 rounds of 45 acp including filling the primer tube. That would be just shy of 400/hour, and I wasn't in a hurry. Typically I will do 100 or 200 at a sitting but I will not change over the press until I've done 1-3000 rounds.
I don't really need additional speed (and expense), I don't need 1000 rounds per week. My biggest time waster is adjusting for trying different bullets, powders, etc. There is where I need to do more standardization.
If I do anything, I think it will be for another 550 (or dedicated Square Deal) and for me to quit experimenting and just leave things set for one bullet and one powder.
YMMV.
My first 7000 rounds were done on a single stage Rockchucker, 15 years ago. Since then, there has been another 68,000 done on a Dillon 550B.
Yes the LnL or 650 would load faster, but I timed myself the other day and it took 17 minutes to do 100 rounds of 45 acp including filling the primer tube. That would be just shy of 400/hour, and I wasn't in a hurry. Typically I will do 100 or 200 at a sitting but I will not change over the press until I've done 1-3000 rounds.
I don't really need additional speed (and expense), I don't need 1000 rounds per week. My biggest time waster is adjusting for trying different bullets, powders, etc. There is where I need to do more standardization.
If I do anything, I think it will be for another 550 (or dedicated Square Deal) and for me to quit experimenting and just leave things set for one bullet and one powder.
YMMV.
rfwobbly
Member
A) IMHO, like CDs for the stereo, you'll have far, far more money in the CD's than the stereo by the time you finish. So you might wish to look at the cost of adding a brand new caliber to each press under consideration. Obviously, if you're doing 38 then adding 357 is almost free, but that's the same on any press. I'm talking price it as though you were doing 38 and added something radically different like 45ACP.
B) Something else to consider... If you have a pal, relative or neighbor that already has one of those 3 presses, then the ability to swap tool heads with him could save you hundreds and swing the deal. That is, he'd use your 38 tool head and shell holder while you used his 223 tool head and shell holder.
C) In the arena you're looking into there are really only 3 presses....
• Dillon 550B
• Dillon 650
• Hornady LNL AP
Well, I try to check each case but sometime I wonder if I missed one, especially if distracted by a primer feed problem. I think I have the primer feed problem solved. But it would be nice to have a second check in case my mind wanders. Sometimes it's easy to "see" what you expect to see, not what's really there.
It's relatively easy to check semiauto cases, but pretty hard to check 357/38/44 cases.
Ken
It's relatively easy to check semiauto cases, but pretty hard to check 357/38/44 cases.
Ken
jfdavis58
Member
I have two 550B; purchased back when Lee was in short-pants and Hornady had yet to discover solid parts (they had link and ball chains like used for key rings) on something that vaguely resembled a progressive.
Both presses continue to work well-one set for large primers, the other for small. Over the years I've acquired the fundamental parts of quick-change tool heads for just over 25 calibers-no stands, buzzers, or counters. I don't have any special press accoutrements: no stands (bolted to tall bench), no bullet trays (work from the shipping box) , no case counters (lay cases on cookie sheets to lube, pick from there) or other (problematic) automation. Dillon sent two upgraded powder bar actuators when I remarked that the newer press had a different mechanism than the older machine--both free. I do batches of pistol 10000 rounds or more at a time, rifle 250 or 500 rnds at a time. A five or ten minute change over is no big deal---in fact it's a welcome diversion.
Always dealt with Dillon directly, needed warranty parts or service twice. Once I stuck a dry case and ruined a resizer (Buy the carbide units!!!), once a part was damaged in shipping. They have comped several rebuild kits (yes the teflon bushings do wear-out) and several times the odd part that rolled off the bench and went lost--screws (True Value carries cap head screws!) clips, pins, balls. I needed tech help once when I lost my manual; both came free, one on the phone the other US Mail.
The best (most important) add-ons come from UniqueTek: the tool head slop removal kit and the powderbar micrometers. The Hornady die locking ring works well on Dillon as do several of the RCBS special purpose sizing and seating dies. Precision Reloading sells a set of die shims that that can be used to good effect-mostly in rifle calibers.
Considering the amount of ammo re-manufactured, I'd say I've amortized the initial equipment cost to the point where it's less than 1/1000 cent per round.
Two lessons learned (aside from the obvious safe practices material): always follow the instructions from the first step and nothing but the best survive the test of time.
Both presses continue to work well-one set for large primers, the other for small. Over the years I've acquired the fundamental parts of quick-change tool heads for just over 25 calibers-no stands, buzzers, or counters. I don't have any special press accoutrements: no stands (bolted to tall bench), no bullet trays (work from the shipping box) , no case counters (lay cases on cookie sheets to lube, pick from there) or other (problematic) automation. Dillon sent two upgraded powder bar actuators when I remarked that the newer press had a different mechanism than the older machine--both free. I do batches of pistol 10000 rounds or more at a time, rifle 250 or 500 rnds at a time. A five or ten minute change over is no big deal---in fact it's a welcome diversion.
Always dealt with Dillon directly, needed warranty parts or service twice. Once I stuck a dry case and ruined a resizer (Buy the carbide units!!!), once a part was damaged in shipping. They have comped several rebuild kits (yes the teflon bushings do wear-out) and several times the odd part that rolled off the bench and went lost--screws (True Value carries cap head screws!) clips, pins, balls. I needed tech help once when I lost my manual; both came free, one on the phone the other US Mail.
The best (most important) add-ons come from UniqueTek: the tool head slop removal kit and the powderbar micrometers. The Hornady die locking ring works well on Dillon as do several of the RCBS special purpose sizing and seating dies. Precision Reloading sells a set of die shims that that can be used to good effect-mostly in rifle calibers.
Considering the amount of ammo re-manufactured, I'd say I've amortized the initial equipment cost to the point where it's less than 1/1000 cent per round.
Two lessons learned (aside from the obvious safe practices material): always follow the instructions from the first step and nothing but the best survive the test of time.
The issue of what to go with for a progressive is a complex one, and judging from this thread, what you're mostly going to get is "colors," i.e., you must go blue, red, etc. I'll have none of it.
I reloaded for over 15 years with two highly-despised Lee Pro1000 presses, and they made many thousands of prime pistol rounds- as good as anyone's on this forum. For reasons pertaining somewhat to advancing age & arthritis, I switched to the Dillon XL650 about 7 years ago, and it also makes great ammo. The major manufacturers all make good equipment, and it will all do the job if you do yours. The rest is mostly what you want for your money. My old Lee Pro1000s, now long gone, were the best bang for the buck I ever had in reloading. My Dillon XL650 is a Rolls-Royce, all right...but you pay, both for it and the warranty. Your choice........
I reloaded for over 15 years with two highly-despised Lee Pro1000 presses, and they made many thousands of prime pistol rounds- as good as anyone's on this forum. For reasons pertaining somewhat to advancing age & arthritis, I switched to the Dillon XL650 about 7 years ago, and it also makes great ammo. The major manufacturers all make good equipment, and it will all do the job if you do yours. The rest is mostly what you want for your money. My old Lee Pro1000s, now long gone, were the best bang for the buck I ever had in reloading. My Dillon XL650 is a Rolls-Royce, all right...but you pay, both for it and the warranty. Your choice........
mallc
Member
My Spreadsheet versus your's.
Here is my spreadsheet from originally setting up a caliber conversions on my 650 and LNL-AP
Dillon 650 XL
Shellplate and bushings for case feed drops. $73.99
Toolhead kit: Toolhead, powder measure, stand $95.99
Audible Powder Check $67.99
Total: $237.97
Hornady LNL-AP
Shellplate $29.99
Die Bushings - 5 $26.65
RCBS Lockout Die $45.19
Powder Measure $84.92
Powder Drop Assembly $64.25
Powder Drop Lower Assembly $23.33
Total: $274.33
I think I ended up with a spare powder drop lower assembly so let's call it Dillion at $237.97 versus LNL AP at $251.
Did i mention that Hornady does not offer audible alarms for low primer, low powder, or under/over charge?
Scott
Here is my spreadsheet from originally setting up a caliber conversions on my 650 and LNL-AP
Dillon 650 XL
Shellplate and bushings for case feed drops. $73.99
Toolhead kit: Toolhead, powder measure, stand $95.99
Audible Powder Check $67.99
Total: $237.97
Hornady LNL-AP
Shellplate $29.99
Die Bushings - 5 $26.65
RCBS Lockout Die $45.19
Powder Measure $84.92
Powder Drop Assembly $64.25
Powder Drop Lower Assembly $23.33
Total: $274.33
I think I ended up with a spare powder drop lower assembly so let's call it Dillion at $237.97 versus LNL AP at $251.
Did i mention that Hornady does not offer audible alarms for low primer, low powder, or under/over charge?
Scott
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GW Staar
Member
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- Feb 26, 2009
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LOL! The O.P. will have none of it either....he hasn't been in the discussion post #15 on page 1, where he said,
As for me...I chose the "etc." color, yup, green, and found quality, simplicity and plenty of speed, and fast, easy caliber changes. Having automating trimming (erasing the biggest bottleneck since using a single station press), and now auto-feeding bullets with a "Red" bullet feeder, no less, I'm tempted to speed. (which isn't necessarily the safest & best way to reload). I have nothing against Dillons and Hornady AP's, but on the other hand, I sure don't feel deprived not having one of the ONLY choices in the arena. (red or blue)
I have nothing against the Lees either...except caliber change speed....oh!....that's why I didn't end up buying "a blue 650" either. Truth is, a Lee progressive with an RCBS or Hornady bullet feeder is as fast as any progressive on the market....for a while....then you got to reload the case tubes and clean, graphite and reload the primer feed and check for loose adjustments. I speak from experience on a pro 1000 too, but I think buying one for each caliber is preferable to changing them. If you only load two or three....that's not a bad idea....speed wise & cost-wise.
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That is a good one. Most preses turn out good stuff now a days. Some tend to be a bit more hands on. Presses are cheap when you figure they will last well over 30 years even used a lot. I like the Dillons and have had virtually no parts breakage. I like my Lyman Turrets and they have been pain free. My Star has not required any parts in many years.
I have not used a Lee Press of any type so I can't and won't speak to them. I try to get good bang for my $$'s and make life as easy as possible. An extra set of dies et up in a tool head with a powder measure is a nice thing to have. Caliber changes can be a pain so I got three Dillon 300's when I got in to IPSC back in the early 80's. I still run them at times.
Red, Blue, Orange and Green all make presses that will fit the budget and handle any reloading niche chore. Look over my room pics and you will see I am a chameleon for good equipment. It will also so I have a small amount of success with the ammunition I build.
Greg
Tough decision picking a press. I went through this in 2001. For 3 months I visited forums and newsgroups asking questions from progressive owners to base my decision on.
The Lee owners for the most part either liked their press or hated it. About 50% said they'd rather have something else. A lot of others told me the primer system was a headache. I've had Lee tools for years, they're OK but don't last. Based on all this I passed on the Lee.
RCBS. Now here's one I would have seriously considered after owning a Rock Chucker for 34 years. Couldn't find but one person that owned one, a friend on the other end of our country. He told me he was not impressed with his and if doing over would go Dillon. Shame, it's cast iron and probably a tank.
Hornady LnL. I looked at it seriously in 2001. At the time I was looking the LnL took 2 stages to bell the case and drop the powder making it a 4 station press. Hornady later changed this by combining the 2 stages into 1. Of course the press owner had to buy the parts needed for the change over. Cha-ching!
However, the biggest reason I passed on the Hornady was I asked the owners lots of questions about the press but most failed to answer one simple question, "How many rounds does the press do in one hour?". The answers I got to this question were "I don't hurry" or "I don't count rounds". Read between the lines and you realize they are tinkering with the press to much to count how many rounds they load in an hour. Ask a Dillon owner how many rounds his press loads in an hour, he'll tell you. Friends I have that own LnL's don't seat primers on the press but do it using a hand held device. Why would you bother to own a progressive if it doesn't do all the steps?
One more drawback that I heard from the LnL owners the spring that holds the case in the shell plate would give them trouble and cases would fail to eject at times. Hornady came out with a redesigned shellplate to cure the problem. Once again it was an expense picked up by the LnL owner. Cha-ching.
The last thing about the LnL. Does anyone remember a press call the "Projector"? This was Hornady's first attempt at a progressive. They let it die and replaced it with the present day LnL. That tells you at some point they are going to drop you and the LnL like a hot potato. Along the same lines do any of you remember the Dillon 450? That's Dillon's first press and it is still supported.
Now for Dillon. My first was a 550b that I owned for about 3 years. Never had a complaint for those 3 years. Right about at the 3 year point I found a used 1050 for $800 in a gunshop that was closing. I bought it and took it home. About this time the 550 started giving me squib loadings. On the third squib, I ordered a 650 and sold the 550 and never looked back. By the way, the 550 does about 350 to 400 rounds an hour.
The 650 is a good press, had mine for 7 years now. Faster then the 550 but not by much. It has a case feeder and a station for a powder check die. This press came needing some fine tuning but once adjusted has performed flawlessly. It does about 600 rounds an hour. Caliber change over is about 10 minutes, maybe 15. I use this one for small primer rounds.
The King is the 1050. All cast iron and IIRC 8 stations. It will knock out primer crimps, has room for a powder check die and is very fast. Mine loading .44 mag will do 1200 rounds in one hour easy. Usually my arm gives out. No complaints on this press, it's my favorite. Caliber change over takes about 30 minutes so I do large primer rounds on this press.
Some things anyone thinking of buying a progressive should consider. I will never again own a progressive press that doesn't have a station for a powder check die. Visual checks don't cut it. Without the check die you will eventually have trouble, I promise.
Keep it clean. Dust from removing the old primers will cause the primer feeds to stick after a time. I clean mine after every run of bullets.
Mounting. Sturdy is the key. If the press is not mounted solidly you'll have primer feeding problems. If you start seeing primers seated upside down you need to re mount the press.
Now, do your homework and go buy a progressive press.
The Lee owners for the most part either liked their press or hated it. About 50% said they'd rather have something else. A lot of others told me the primer system was a headache. I've had Lee tools for years, they're OK but don't last. Based on all this I passed on the Lee.
RCBS. Now here's one I would have seriously considered after owning a Rock Chucker for 34 years. Couldn't find but one person that owned one, a friend on the other end of our country. He told me he was not impressed with his and if doing over would go Dillon. Shame, it's cast iron and probably a tank.
Hornady LnL. I looked at it seriously in 2001. At the time I was looking the LnL took 2 stages to bell the case and drop the powder making it a 4 station press. Hornady later changed this by combining the 2 stages into 1. Of course the press owner had to buy the parts needed for the change over. Cha-ching!
However, the biggest reason I passed on the Hornady was I asked the owners lots of questions about the press but most failed to answer one simple question, "How many rounds does the press do in one hour?". The answers I got to this question were "I don't hurry" or "I don't count rounds". Read between the lines and you realize they are tinkering with the press to much to count how many rounds they load in an hour. Ask a Dillon owner how many rounds his press loads in an hour, he'll tell you. Friends I have that own LnL's don't seat primers on the press but do it using a hand held device. Why would you bother to own a progressive if it doesn't do all the steps?
One more drawback that I heard from the LnL owners the spring that holds the case in the shell plate would give them trouble and cases would fail to eject at times. Hornady came out with a redesigned shellplate to cure the problem. Once again it was an expense picked up by the LnL owner. Cha-ching.
The last thing about the LnL. Does anyone remember a press call the "Projector"? This was Hornady's first attempt at a progressive. They let it die and replaced it with the present day LnL. That tells you at some point they are going to drop you and the LnL like a hot potato. Along the same lines do any of you remember the Dillon 450? That's Dillon's first press and it is still supported.
Now for Dillon. My first was a 550b that I owned for about 3 years. Never had a complaint for those 3 years. Right about at the 3 year point I found a used 1050 for $800 in a gunshop that was closing. I bought it and took it home. About this time the 550 started giving me squib loadings. On the third squib, I ordered a 650 and sold the 550 and never looked back. By the way, the 550 does about 350 to 400 rounds an hour.
The 650 is a good press, had mine for 7 years now. Faster then the 550 but not by much. It has a case feeder and a station for a powder check die. This press came needing some fine tuning but once adjusted has performed flawlessly. It does about 600 rounds an hour. Caliber change over is about 10 minutes, maybe 15. I use this one for small primer rounds.
The King is the 1050. All cast iron and IIRC 8 stations. It will knock out primer crimps, has room for a powder check die and is very fast. Mine loading .44 mag will do 1200 rounds in one hour easy. Usually my arm gives out. No complaints on this press, it's my favorite. Caliber change over takes about 30 minutes so I do large primer rounds on this press.
Some things anyone thinking of buying a progressive should consider. I will never again own a progressive press that doesn't have a station for a powder check die. Visual checks don't cut it. Without the check die you will eventually have trouble, I promise.
Keep it clean. Dust from removing the old primers will cause the primer feeds to stick after a time. I clean mine after every run of bullets.
Mounting. Sturdy is the key. If the press is not mounted solidly you'll have primer feeding problems. If you start seeing primers seated upside down you need to re mount the press.
Now, do your homework and go buy a progressive press.
tooltech
Member
The LnL is an evolution from the older Projector. Just like the 550 is an evolution of the the 450 that preceded it. Yes, you can update the 450 to a 550, but it is close to the price of a 550 outright. I checked. You can use many LnL parts on a Projector, but due to design improvements some Projector parts will not fit a LnL. Hornady still has parts for the Projector. I've never checked, but would not be surprised if you could fit the LnL EZject subplate to a Projector, and have all the benfits of the LnL, minus the quick change die bushings.
The major changes between the 450 and 550, and the Projector and the LnL are in the same area. Making die changes easier. Dillon chose to cut a large hole in the top of the press, and fit removable tool heads, Hornady reefed out the holes, and fitted quick set bushings. Both systems work.
BTW, the 450 was not Dillon's first press. I think that was the 300? I couldn't find any parts available for it, so I don't know if it is still supported or not.
The major changes between the 450 and 550, and the Projector and the LnL are in the same area. Making die changes easier. Dillon chose to cut a large hole in the top of the press, and fit removable tool heads, Hornady reefed out the holes, and fitted quick set bushings. Both systems work.
BTW, the 450 was not Dillon's first press. I think that was the 300? I couldn't find any parts available for it, so I don't know if it is still supported or not.
For the Hornady, you don't need additional powder measures, just the metering insert for 9.99. The metering insert is designed for quick change. Set it up for one cartridge/powder combination and re-insert the next time you load that cartridge.
Subtract another $74 from the Hornady total.
Dillon $238, Hornady $177.
I use the same powder cop die for all cartridges on the Hornady. A minute or two to set up. More savings.
BigJakeJ1s
Member
Mallc included the whole powder drop assy, which is not needed either (subtract $64.25), just the lower.
Bushings are $38.99 for ten at Midway. 5 bushings = $19.50, not $26.65.
I also included Hornady dies (3 die set + taper crimp), or Dillon die set accordingly, but they totaled about the same anyway, thus not significantly affecting the cost difference between Hornady and Dillon.
As for swapping Dillon or Hornady conversions between buddies' presses, I doubt that all Dillon presses (or all Hornady presses) are close enough to allow exactly the same die settings when installed on a different press, even of the same model.
I chose three configurations for caliber change: minimum cost (only bare bones what is needed, requires adjustments, etc.); full-up, no-adjustments-needed, without powder alarm/lockout (for comparison w/550), and full-up including powder alarm/lockout. Most users are probably somewhere in between these, but these set the upper & lower cost bounds.
Andy
(Note: I have posted this before. However, the "What's best" question always comes up. If you have seen before I apologize.)
Which is Better? What’s best?
This question usually ignites a firestorm of of "Blue verses Red verses etc." What you are not going to find is very many people that have actually loaded on BOTH DILLON AND HORNADY. I have loaded on the Dillon SDB, 550, 650, 1050 and the Hornady LNL.
I currently own a Hornady LNL and a Dillon SDB.
Here is my perspective:
The Dillon has been on the market a long time and have great customer service, as a result, Dillon users are very dedicated to their blue presses. Dillon presses are EXCEPTIONAL and do an exceptional job in reloading. The competition to the Dillon is the Hornady Lock and Load Auto Progressive. Because most of the Dillon users are so satisfied, when you ask the question “Which is better?”, you get swamped with comments like, "The Hornady LNL is Junk!" If you asked if they have ever loaded on the LNL and 99.9% said no. When I did find someone that had experience with both presses, most liked the LNL and many had sold their Dillon's and bought the LNL. However, there have been those that sold their red presses and bought blue. I can also unequivocally state, based on my experience, that HORNADY has equal customer service. You just have to decide what you like best. Some times it’s just the color, red or blue!!
IMHO the Dillon has one major shortcoming and, most Dillon owners will agree if they are honest. The Dillon powder measure is sorely lacking in ease of use and adjustability. It is sliding bar type measure. It meters ball type powder well but, flake type powder less so. Extruded stick type powder is VERY troublesome and not all that accurate. To be fair, extruded powder is difficult in all powder measures, irregardless of design. Be advised that flake powder has been known to “leak” around the Dillon sliding bar as it is activated back and forth. Particularly if the sliding bar is worn. The LNL powder measure is a rotary barrel design that handles all types of powder MUCH better than the Dillon. A rotary barrel is the same design used by RCBS, Sinclair and other manufacturers. I have never heard of a rotary type measure “leak”. Also, it is a pain to swap out the Dillon powder measure to another die plate. As a result, many owners have several powder measures on separate die plates for changing calibers. This significantly drives UP the COST. I have never heard of a LNL owner that has more than one powder measure. There is no need. It is easy to adjust. Many LNL owners, myself included, own several "Powder Dies" that are pre-adjusted to load a specific case. (Note: Powder measure fits into the Powder Die.) Each LNL powder die costs about $20. A Dillon powder measure costs $75.
Also, IMHO, the Dillon de-priming/priming system is less reliable than the LNL. With the Dillon system, spent primers drop through the bottom of the shell plate into a small cup. It is an “open” system and is easy to empty. However, the press gets dirty with carbon. Whenever carbon/dust/dirt or “primer dust” fouls the primer seating station this causes "flipped" or "skipped" primers. The DILLON de-priming system works well provided it is kept CLEAN. With the Hornady LNL, spent primers are dropped completely through the press into a plastic tube and into the trash or bottle or whatever you want to use. It is a “closed” system. You never get carbon in and around the bottom of the shell plate. The point is the dirt off the spent primers does not foul the workings of the press. I have never had a “flipped” primer. Although, I have had “missed” primers that I feel were operator error (ME!) and not the fault of the primer system. (I forgot to seat the primer!) In all fairness, the LNL primer seating station will also not work properly if the primer slide is fouled with dirt or powder. Please note that neither Dillon or LNL primer systems will work flawlessly unless they are adjusted properly. Users of BOTH systems have expressed exasperation with these adjustments.
If you want a “Powder Check” system you need a press with at least five stations. The Dillon Square Deal and Dillon 550 both have 4 die stations. The LNL and Dillon 650 both have 5 stations. However, the 650 costs significantly more than the LNL. The Dillon 1050 is really an industrial machine and has eight stations.
How the presses indexes is an issue for some people. In reading the web about "KABOOMS" (Blowing up a gun!!), many of the kabooms I have read about were directly traced back to a manually indexing press. This is not the fault of the press but, operator error. However, with a manually indexing press, If you get distracted while reloading, you can easily double charge a pistol case. (A double charge will depend on the powder you are using and the charge weight.) IMHO, a double charge is less of a problem with auto-indexing presses. The Hornady LNL, Dillon 650 and, Dillon Square Deal auto index. The MOST POPULAR Dillon press, the 550, is a manually indexing press. Some people prefer manual, some people prefer auto.
In addition, the LNL auto indexing is significantly smoother than the Dillon 650. The LNL indexes 1/2 step while the ram is going up and 1/2 step when the ram goes down. The 650 indexes a full step on the ram down stroke and can cause pistol cases to spill SMALL AMOUNTS or powder with the indexing "bump". IMHO, the LNL is dramatically better. Of course, the amount of powder "bumped" from a case is dependent on the powder charge, operator and, speed of reloading. As I stated above, you get primer problems with a dirty press. "Bumped" powder fouls BOTH Dillon and LNL.
Next, the LNL uses a really slick bushing system for mounting loading dies and powder measure to the press. It makes changing calibers and SNAP. After a die is adjusted for whatever you are loading you can remove the die from the press with an 1/8 turn and insert a different die. Each die has it's own bushing. The Dillon uses a die plate that has the powder measure and all loading dies installed. The Dillon die plate costs more than LNL bushings. Another neat feature with the Hornady is that you can buy a bushing conversion setup and use the same bushings on your RCBS, Lyman or other single stage press and the LNL!
Additionally, the LNL seems to be built like a tank! The ram is about 2"+ in diameter and the basic press is similar in construction to the RCBS Rock Chucker. I would say that a side-by-side comparison to the either the Dillon 550 OR 650, the LNL is at least as sturdily built. And, in some areas I think the LNL is better built. i.e., The massive ram, powder measure, and primer system. The head/top of the press is solid except for where the dies are inserted. The Dillon has a large cutout that is needed for their die plates. By just looking, it would seem the LNL would be stronger. But, of course, that may not be the case.
There is one piece that can get damaged on the LNL. There is a coil spring that holds the cases in the shell holder that can get crushed if you improperly change shell holders. That's the bad news. The good news is that they are only about $2-3 for three and they won't get crushed if you change shell plates correctly. The other good news is that this spring is the primary reason while loading you can easily remove a case at any station. The spring is durable if it is not abused. I have been using my current retainer spring for about 2 years. I have loaded at least 12,000 rounds in that time. With the Dillon you have to remove small individual brass pins in order to take a shell out of a shell plate. My fingers require needle-nose pliers or forceps to remove the brass pins. It is a PITA.
(For the next discussion keep in mind that BOTH DILLON AND LNL shell plates rotate CLOCKWISE.)
Another item to think about. For NON-CASE FEEDER users; all Dillon presses (Except 1050) require you to use BOTH hands to insert brass and bullets on the press. The Dillon 650, 550 and, SDB operates as follows;
1) Right hand inserts an empty case at the right, front side of the press.
2) Left hand then sets the bullet on the case mouth at the left, rear side of the press.
Right hand then activates the operating handle.
For Dillon 550 only, Left hand manually rotates shell plate.
You then release the operating handle and insert another case with your right hand and so forth. (Right, left, right, left, right, left)
(Note: With the Dillon 550 you also have to manually rotate the shell plate at step 4. Most people do this with their LEFT hand.)
With the Dillon, “right-left-right-left” hand operating procedure, clockwise rotation and, the fact that you start your loading process at the front, right side of the press, your bullet seating die is at the rear, left side of the press. Why is this important? The Dillon powder measure drops powder into the case and the case is rotated clockwise to the REAR of the press to the bullet seating die. It is very difficult to see inside of the case to see the gunpowder. Many Dillon owners rig up flashlight, mirror or, believe it or not, a video camera to “look” into the case to see the powder charge.
With the LNL you start your loading process at the REAR, left side of the press. As your case rotates clockwise, after the powder is dropped, your case is directly in the front of the press and the bullet is seated directly in front of the person operating the press. Is is VERY EASY to look directly into the case to see the powder charge. Even though I use a “Powder Check” die. I look directly into each case as I am loading. I have never had a squib load OR a double charge. This is not to say that it can’t happen. It can. I just haven’t experienced one.
Loading cases and bullets with the left hand is very natural to me. Others may really dislike this feature and prefer the right/left/right/left/right operation of Dillon. Please note that a case feeder eliminates this operation and both Dillon and LNL only load bullets on the left side of the press. Dillon at the back of the press and LNL at the front of the press.
You can load anything on both the Dillon and LNL from .25 ACP to 500 N.E. Realistically, I would say that people with progressive loaders mostly load pistol ammo 99% of the time. After using the LNL, I feel confident that my Grandkids will be using when I'm gone.
In summary, the Hornady LNL has all the features of the Dillon 650 but, is much cheaper. However, the Dillon automatic case feeder is about $50 cheaper that the Hornady. Changing calipers on the LNL is faster and cheaper. The powder measure on the LNL is VASTLY SUPERIOR TO THE DILLON, at least in my opinion. I bought the LNL and am very satisfied. A shooting buddy of mine is a long time, dedicated Dillon user. He has three! After giving me a ration of "stuff" about my choice, he came over and used my LNL and sheepishly said, "That's a very nice setup!!"
Which is Better? What’s best?
This question usually ignites a firestorm of of "Blue verses Red verses etc." What you are not going to find is very many people that have actually loaded on BOTH DILLON AND HORNADY. I have loaded on the Dillon SDB, 550, 650, 1050 and the Hornady LNL.
I currently own a Hornady LNL and a Dillon SDB.
Here is my perspective:
The Dillon has been on the market a long time and have great customer service, as a result, Dillon users are very dedicated to their blue presses. Dillon presses are EXCEPTIONAL and do an exceptional job in reloading. The competition to the Dillon is the Hornady Lock and Load Auto Progressive. Because most of the Dillon users are so satisfied, when you ask the question “Which is better?”, you get swamped with comments like, "The Hornady LNL is Junk!" If you asked if they have ever loaded on the LNL and 99.9% said no. When I did find someone that had experience with both presses, most liked the LNL and many had sold their Dillon's and bought the LNL. However, there have been those that sold their red presses and bought blue. I can also unequivocally state, based on my experience, that HORNADY has equal customer service. You just have to decide what you like best. Some times it’s just the color, red or blue!!
IMHO the Dillon has one major shortcoming and, most Dillon owners will agree if they are honest. The Dillon powder measure is sorely lacking in ease of use and adjustability. It is sliding bar type measure. It meters ball type powder well but, flake type powder less so. Extruded stick type powder is VERY troublesome and not all that accurate. To be fair, extruded powder is difficult in all powder measures, irregardless of design. Be advised that flake powder has been known to “leak” around the Dillon sliding bar as it is activated back and forth. Particularly if the sliding bar is worn. The LNL powder measure is a rotary barrel design that handles all types of powder MUCH better than the Dillon. A rotary barrel is the same design used by RCBS, Sinclair and other manufacturers. I have never heard of a rotary type measure “leak”. Also, it is a pain to swap out the Dillon powder measure to another die plate. As a result, many owners have several powder measures on separate die plates for changing calibers. This significantly drives UP the COST. I have never heard of a LNL owner that has more than one powder measure. There is no need. It is easy to adjust. Many LNL owners, myself included, own several "Powder Dies" that are pre-adjusted to load a specific case. (Note: Powder measure fits into the Powder Die.) Each LNL powder die costs about $20. A Dillon powder measure costs $75.
Also, IMHO, the Dillon de-priming/priming system is less reliable than the LNL. With the Dillon system, spent primers drop through the bottom of the shell plate into a small cup. It is an “open” system and is easy to empty. However, the press gets dirty with carbon. Whenever carbon/dust/dirt or “primer dust” fouls the primer seating station this causes "flipped" or "skipped" primers. The DILLON de-priming system works well provided it is kept CLEAN. With the Hornady LNL, spent primers are dropped completely through the press into a plastic tube and into the trash or bottle or whatever you want to use. It is a “closed” system. You never get carbon in and around the bottom of the shell plate. The point is the dirt off the spent primers does not foul the workings of the press. I have never had a “flipped” primer. Although, I have had “missed” primers that I feel were operator error (ME!) and not the fault of the primer system. (I forgot to seat the primer!) In all fairness, the LNL primer seating station will also not work properly if the primer slide is fouled with dirt or powder. Please note that neither Dillon or LNL primer systems will work flawlessly unless they are adjusted properly. Users of BOTH systems have expressed exasperation with these adjustments.
If you want a “Powder Check” system you need a press with at least five stations. The Dillon Square Deal and Dillon 550 both have 4 die stations. The LNL and Dillon 650 both have 5 stations. However, the 650 costs significantly more than the LNL. The Dillon 1050 is really an industrial machine and has eight stations.
How the presses indexes is an issue for some people. In reading the web about "KABOOMS" (Blowing up a gun!!), many of the kabooms I have read about were directly traced back to a manually indexing press. This is not the fault of the press but, operator error. However, with a manually indexing press, If you get distracted while reloading, you can easily double charge a pistol case. (A double charge will depend on the powder you are using and the charge weight.) IMHO, a double charge is less of a problem with auto-indexing presses. The Hornady LNL, Dillon 650 and, Dillon Square Deal auto index. The MOST POPULAR Dillon press, the 550, is a manually indexing press. Some people prefer manual, some people prefer auto.
In addition, the LNL auto indexing is significantly smoother than the Dillon 650. The LNL indexes 1/2 step while the ram is going up and 1/2 step when the ram goes down. The 650 indexes a full step on the ram down stroke and can cause pistol cases to spill SMALL AMOUNTS or powder with the indexing "bump". IMHO, the LNL is dramatically better. Of course, the amount of powder "bumped" from a case is dependent on the powder charge, operator and, speed of reloading. As I stated above, you get primer problems with a dirty press. "Bumped" powder fouls BOTH Dillon and LNL.
Next, the LNL uses a really slick bushing system for mounting loading dies and powder measure to the press. It makes changing calibers and SNAP. After a die is adjusted for whatever you are loading you can remove the die from the press with an 1/8 turn and insert a different die. Each die has it's own bushing. The Dillon uses a die plate that has the powder measure and all loading dies installed. The Dillon die plate costs more than LNL bushings. Another neat feature with the Hornady is that you can buy a bushing conversion setup and use the same bushings on your RCBS, Lyman or other single stage press and the LNL!
Additionally, the LNL seems to be built like a tank! The ram is about 2"+ in diameter and the basic press is similar in construction to the RCBS Rock Chucker. I would say that a side-by-side comparison to the either the Dillon 550 OR 650, the LNL is at least as sturdily built. And, in some areas I think the LNL is better built. i.e., The massive ram, powder measure, and primer system. The head/top of the press is solid except for where the dies are inserted. The Dillon has a large cutout that is needed for their die plates. By just looking, it would seem the LNL would be stronger. But, of course, that may not be the case.
There is one piece that can get damaged on the LNL. There is a coil spring that holds the cases in the shell holder that can get crushed if you improperly change shell holders. That's the bad news. The good news is that they are only about $2-3 for three and they won't get crushed if you change shell plates correctly. The other good news is that this spring is the primary reason while loading you can easily remove a case at any station. The spring is durable if it is not abused. I have been using my current retainer spring for about 2 years. I have loaded at least 12,000 rounds in that time. With the Dillon you have to remove small individual brass pins in order to take a shell out of a shell plate. My fingers require needle-nose pliers or forceps to remove the brass pins. It is a PITA.
(For the next discussion keep in mind that BOTH DILLON AND LNL shell plates rotate CLOCKWISE.)
Another item to think about. For NON-CASE FEEDER users; all Dillon presses (Except 1050) require you to use BOTH hands to insert brass and bullets on the press. The Dillon 650, 550 and, SDB operates as follows;
1) Right hand inserts an empty case at the right, front side of the press.
2) Left hand then sets the bullet on the case mouth at the left, rear side of the press.
Right hand then activates the operating handle.
For Dillon 550 only, Left hand manually rotates shell plate.
You then release the operating handle and insert another case with your right hand and so forth. (Right, left, right, left, right, left)
(Note: With the Dillon 550 you also have to manually rotate the shell plate at step 4. Most people do this with their LEFT hand.)
With the Dillon, “right-left-right-left” hand operating procedure, clockwise rotation and, the fact that you start your loading process at the front, right side of the press, your bullet seating die is at the rear, left side of the press. Why is this important? The Dillon powder measure drops powder into the case and the case is rotated clockwise to the REAR of the press to the bullet seating die. It is very difficult to see inside of the case to see the gunpowder. Many Dillon owners rig up flashlight, mirror or, believe it or not, a video camera to “look” into the case to see the powder charge.
With the LNL you start your loading process at the REAR, left side of the press. As your case rotates clockwise, after the powder is dropped, your case is directly in the front of the press and the bullet is seated directly in front of the person operating the press. Is is VERY EASY to look directly into the case to see the powder charge. Even though I use a “Powder Check” die. I look directly into each case as I am loading. I have never had a squib load OR a double charge. This is not to say that it can’t happen. It can. I just haven’t experienced one.
Loading cases and bullets with the left hand is very natural to me. Others may really dislike this feature and prefer the right/left/right/left/right operation of Dillon. Please note that a case feeder eliminates this operation and both Dillon and LNL only load bullets on the left side of the press. Dillon at the back of the press and LNL at the front of the press.
You can load anything on both the Dillon and LNL from .25 ACP to 500 N.E. Realistically, I would say that people with progressive loaders mostly load pistol ammo 99% of the time. After using the LNL, I feel confident that my Grandkids will be using when I'm gone.
In summary, the Hornady LNL has all the features of the Dillon 650 but, is much cheaper. However, the Dillon automatic case feeder is about $50 cheaper that the Hornady. Changing calipers on the LNL is faster and cheaper. The powder measure on the LNL is VASTLY SUPERIOR TO THE DILLON, at least in my opinion. I bought the LNL and am very satisfied. A shooting buddy of mine is a long time, dedicated Dillon user. He has three! After giving me a ration of "stuff" about my choice, he came over and used my LNL and sheepishly said, "That's a very nice setup!!"
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