Second guessing the AR for SD

[usfan]

I consider the 5.56 AR a great platform/caliber for HD, shtf, zombies, or whatever. One of the best things is capacity..you've got 30 rounds in the mag, & a couple more are easy to carry. For outdoors, at medium to longer ranges, it would excel. Sure, the shotgun would be better at close range, but it is a lot slower to reload, & you can't carry many shells. I like the 308, too, but unless you need consistent 200+ yd shots, the 5.56 is just as effective with accurate hits, & again, you have more capacity.

IMO, the ar is the perfect shtf firearm. Lightweight, low recoil, high capacity, decent range, good ballistics. You can use it for sweeping buildings, or covering at medium distances. I wouldn't ditch my shotgun, or my 308, or the 45acp, but neither would i ditch the AR! All of them are good & versatile in a variety of settings. But i'd grab the ar before the 308 for most medium range shooting.

 

[Nature Boy]

I hear what you are saying. I have an AR M4-gery, and since I got my M1A last year the AR collects dust in the safe.

However, the often stated "guns are for buying and not for selling" applies to me so I'll hang on to it. Really thinking hard about getting a heavy barrel upper for target/varmint but until then, it will have to sit at home and be jealous of me taking that sexy M1A to the dance.

 

[Chuck R.]

I’m not what I’d call a fan of ARs, but I do understand and appreciate them for what they offer as a defensive tool. One other aspect I’d like to throw out in support is the ability to train with one.

I currently own 3 ARs; 5.56 for HD (w .22LR conversion), a .22LR (S&W M&P-15), for a trainer/small game, and a Colt 6951 9mm as a trainer. Between these I can shoot on any range and at any targets that allow pistol calibers. All 3 of mine are set up the same, optic, furniture (except the M&P-15 forearm) and sling, shooting one adds to the proficiency of the others in one way or another. Between the .22LR and 9mm, literally everyone in my home can operate an AR. Also, if you sign up for a Carbine Class, chances are excellent the instructor(s) will be well versed in the AR, other platforms not so much. I witnessed this in the last class I took when a gentleman was using a Mini-14. It seems like most of the HD/CQB instruction available centers on the AR. There are instructors working AKs, but I don't know how frequent or available those classes are.

Another selling point is the modularity and support system. Parts and skilled mechanics are just about everywhere. I don’t know of too many other weapons (long guns) that can say that.

Chuck

 

[MistWolf]

In regards to the situation where I find I'm having to defend myself from a badguy who ambushed me at longer ranges-

"TIME OUT! I gotta go get my M14. As you are well aware, an AR is only good up to 50 yards!"

People tend to forget that a pencil hole in a badguy's belly at 800 yards is much better than a 308 rifle back at the ranch

 

[Welding Rod]

There is no rifle or carbine I would put before a good AR for SD purposes.

Light, compact, ergonomic, fast handling, reliable firepower in a thoroughly versatile and refined platform.... At a reasonable price point. And they tend to be accurate, durable, resistant to corrosion, and easy to maintain. Easy to shoot fast and accurately.

 

[Zerodefect]

Just shoot. Whatever works best for you, works best for you. We were inspired by this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKk45i9DzDA

We setup used pop bottles, broken cinder blocks from a construction site waste pile, and paper targets. A few plywood boards for cover, some simple rules and a shot timer. Targets were 10' to 50 yards.

AR15 (14.5" Colt 6920) vs. Keltec KSG vs Remington 1100.

What we learned:
-The Remington 1100 sucked up close, or when rushed. It was easy to miss at close range.
-The shotguns would hit and miss at long range, on the same single shot. Each missed 00buck round is a liability for your neighbors. The 1100 had the advantage of chokes, the KSG did not. the KSg was spray and pray (that it didn't hit the neighbors nursery).
-Pumping the KSG is retarded. A SERIOUS disadvantage.
-The AR15 hit everything up close. Even when we removed the Aimpoint and went to iron sights, it scored the most hits and the quickest times with all 3 of us. We expected the AR to have a disadvantage at close range, we were wrong.
-The 1100's lack of tactical sights was a major failure.
-even if we skipped the 50yard targets, the AR still had a better time.
-they were all more effective than a pistol
-the 1100 is unweildly huge. For a static positions only. The AR felt better than the KSG and slung better.

So my AR is still my choice for HD and my woods. Although my pistol is usually my first thing to grab, and the AR is more of a luxury.

 

[justice06rr]

Call me crazy, but here it goes. I know it's a matter of personal opinion but I'm curious to hear what you all think before I sell my M4/6920.

I can't think of a scenario where I'd choose my AR as my weapon for SD.

Indoors I'd want a handgun or shotgun.

Outdoors against one aggressor from 50 yards or less I'd want a shotgun.

Outdoors against multiple aggressors from 50 yards or more I'd want the M1A

I guess there's a part of me that doesn't want me to sell my Colt. But practicality appeals to me, and ugly black plastic rifles don't have a place in my heart like my shotgun and M1A.

Is there something I'm missing here

OP, no offense but it feels like you may have a bias against the M4/AR15.

Remember the Military and Police currently use it for both indoor and outdoor purposes. Plastic is lightweight, doesn't corrode/rot, and is durable.

The M1A is great, but overkill for anything close range, a little heavy, and less capacity. Shotgun is lethal in short range, not so great for longer distances that require more accuracy, slower if its pump action, can induce short-strokes, and have a harder recoil.

The advantages of the AR is capacity, accuracy, and ergonomics. You can have it with a sling, use 40-60rd mags, flashlight, and a good optic of your choice and still be relatively compact and lightweight.

On a related note, Pistols are good if you want something lighter and smaller. But there is a reason they are called a "sidearm". you can't sling a pistol, less accuracy, and limited capacity.

 

[Birddog1911]

Go a step further, with a SBR AR, with a suppressor. A red dot and light, and you'll have an outstanding HD rifle.

 

[cdk8]

Personally I think a lot of it is preference, and it comes down more to where an individual's proficiency is at.

Does the superior ballistics of a 5.56/.223 round trump the greater maneuverability of the 9mm Glock 17? That's like asking how many licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie pop...

 

[DeepSouth]

A statement like that is more the reflection of your metrics than for the AR15's capabilities. It is pretty much a jack of all trades rifle. There are a bunch of various tools which will beat it in specialized areas, but few tools which excel across the board like an intermediate carbine.

I certainly want argue with that point, it is likely the best choice for what I would call a multi-purpose rifle. I tend to buy a specific gun for a specific purpose, which is why my AR collected dust until I finally sold it.
For those not fortunate enough (or just have no desire) to buy multiple rifles for a few specific reasons the AR would probably be the best option out there, I'm just at not that guy. If I was looking for a gun strictly for home defense I'd never consider the AR in the standard 5.56 caliber, because IMHO their are much better options available.

 

[Zerodefect]

Personally I think a lot of it is preference, and it comes down more to where an individual's proficiency is at.

Does the superior ballistics of a 5.56/.223 round trump the greater maneuverability of the 9mm Glock 17? That's like asking how many licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie pop...

True. But if I grab my AR instead of mt Glock 23 when I'm at home, I'm in a world of hurt and need some serious firepower. Like a whole mob of crazy drunkards coming down my driveway. Or TEOTWAWKI. And having some range to kill stays, or troublesome coyotes(rare) is handy.

Except for carrying it in my woods for bears(usually harmless and welcome), it's kinda overkill.

A 7.5" suppressed AR in .300blk, is going to be pretty hard to beat. And unsuppressed, it's hardly louder than a pistol, no where near 5.56 or 7.62x45.

 

[IndianaBoy]

An M4 or any similar AR carbine is simply ideal for self defense. The only trump card is the portability of a handgun. Your neighbors are safer if you choose 223 than with either 12 gauge buckshot or any center fire handgun. I greatly prefer an AR to an M1A but if you don't like it, don't use it.

I don't agree with your logic but it is a free country.

 

[Captains1911]

I never understand when people suggest that an AR-15, or any gun for that matter, is "overkill" for a home defense scenario. It's like saying you brought too much ammo to a fight....has anybody ever said that? If god forbid I ever need to use a firearm to protect myself or family, I want every possible advantage I can get, period.

 

[JR47]

Personally, I live in a house, not a barn. In that house, the lay-out has a lot of constricted points as you move through it. Just coming out of the master bedroom puts you in a position where three walls exist. You must make a 90 degree turn to the left, and move 4 feet into the living room. There are multiple areas like this.

I prefer a pistol, with light and laser attached, to maneuver through the house. Mine is an FNP-45.

I also have stairs between levels that are, in some cases, nothing but "fatal funnels" as you move up or down them. Walls on two sides, a ceiling, and a landing at the base, requiring a 90 degree turn.

For me, a rifle, or a shotgun, represent "too much" in length, and lack maneuverability in my specific house.

Before we wax pompous on the AR, or the shotgun, maybe we should look at the particular situation that the poster is in?

For me, in the case of home invasion, the pistol is available much more frequently than a rifle or shotgun. I can have a pistol in far more areas without making my house into an armory. I don't need to have dedicated places for something as large as the AR or Shotgun, either.

In the Master bedroom, I keep a shotgun. Given the chance to set up defensively, I will call for help, and stay there. In that scenario, an AR is as good as anything else. I don't particularly find the AR platform a favorite, but it works for some.

Moving through my house when something goes "bump in the night" will find me with the FNP in hand, along with a gun belt holding my cell phone, two spare magazines, and two Surefire lights. With the lay-out of the house, it's easier for me to maneuver.

Also, if I do find something amiss, I may choose to simply hold my position, and alert the local police to come by and practice their techniques.

I don't have hundreds of yards of open space around me, so, especially at night, I'm not engaging anyone even fifty yards away.

Here, the biggest intruders at night aren't humans, they are bears. Up to 500 pound bears. For one of them, a shotgun, or that M1A, is going to be a lot more comforting than a poodle-gun. I'm sure that you could kill it with those Varmint quality, not overly penetrative, .223 bullets. I'm not sure that, while it was dying, it wouldn't rip you to pieces.

Choose what you feel comfortable with, and what works in your environment. Practice with it, and have a Plan A, then a Plan B, then a Plan C. It's really less the hardware than the software.

 

[DaisyCutter]

If Seal Team 6 is raiding your home, then you made a very poor decision somewhere along the way. Imaginary scenarios where your busting out an AR15 against a squad of armed people outside your yard is Ralphie speaking: https://youtu.be/6M9INFJ-PTw

For bumps in the night, take some preventive measures. Install some lighting, get a dog, don't befriend tweekers.

Burglars prefer nobody to be home. Nobody sneaks into an occupied home and tips over a topiary trying to pry your plasma TV off the wall. Contemporary burglars take a pillowcase or backpack, head to the master bedroom, fill it with jewelry, RX drugs, cash, credit cards, maybe a handgun(s). They are in & out fast, and don't like confrontation.

An AR is formidable for defense, Sure. But my AR isn't my go-to. My preference is a handgun. Inside a confined space, like a room, the odds are too high he'll be in contact range. I prefer to have a handgun because I have a hand free to defend myself, and maintain stand-off distance. I can also bring a handgun to bear with an enemy's body on me. With a rifle, they can get behind the muzzle, and I have no way to go hands-on (or "hand" on) with both hands committed to a long gun. Every single time I've encountered an intruder inside a house, 100%, it's been at arm's length. How do you drag a sucker out of the broom closet with an AR in your hands? I prefer a free hand.

IMO, an AR is not ideal for home typical defense. Grab the AR when the riots kick off.

We live in a free country, so prepare how you want. I'd just caution to keep considerations in the realm of reality.

 

[rglong81]

I agree that a handgun is ideal for HD. It leaves you with a free hand to manipulate switches and knobs. When rounding a corner or going through a doorway it doesn't give an agressor as much oportunity to grab your firearm and wrestle with you. I wouldn't worry much about overpentration with a hollowpoint bullet either. I have tested .223 55grn Federal FMJ on 3/4" steel plates at 50 yards and while it didn't penetrate it left a bubble on one side and a crater big enough for the tip of my pinky in the other. I couldn't imagine people using that if they are concerned about overpentration.

I can't speak for the M1A personally but it is on my short list. It may be accurate, reliable, and powerful, but particularly in a SHTF scenario I can't imagine lugging one around with ammo is as comfortable as 5.56 or 7.62x39 and their respective platforms. People really underestimate the weight factor. I used to too before I started testing my gear on hunting trips and got a dose of reality.

I recommend holding onto it regardless and if you have a wife/gf or even a friend or family member that you plan to team up with in a SHTF situation then they will be well armed too. My wife is small and 5.56 is really the max she is comfortable with.

 

[benEzra]

I have tested .223 55grn Federal FMJ on 3/4" steel plates at 50 yards and while it didn't penetrate it left a bubble on one side and a crater big enough for the tip of my pinky in the other. I couldn't imagine people using that if they are concerned about overpentration.

The AR-for-HD suggestion usually assumes the use of relatively fragile civilian jacketed hollowpoints or softpoints, not military FMJ, although if you live in a rural area or a masonry-faced house then FMJ may not be an issue.

Suitably chosen .223 JHP can indeed penetrate less than a handgun or 00 buckshot in drywall, even though it has greater penetration in steel due to its velocity.

http://www.how-i-did-it.org/drywall/results.html

Note that we are *not* talking about bonded core hunting rounds here, or other tough hard-to-fragment projectiles. Those would likely penetrate considerably more than 55gr softpoint and whatnot.

 

[taliv]

The problem with handguns is that post people aim them poorly and their trigger pull is so pathetic under ideal circumstances and scary under stress. People are much more likely to hit a target with an ar anywhere past arms length

Training will help but most people can't afford that. Or the ammo to cement good habits.

I'd be very curious to see any sort of study or unbiased stats on carbine retention. Grabbing a barrel seems like it would be pretty easy with the element of surprise at arms length but it would seem a very very short lived advantage. Like the old saying about grabbing a tiger by the tail.

 

[Ironicaintit]

This thread has made me second guess some of my assumptions about the suitability of an AR for HD.
Id pretty much dismissed it as an option, and so by my bedside is a no frills 12 gauge loaded with alternating slugs and 00buck.
But then theres..."what if..."
What if im injured? Can I chamber the next round? Can i load it? With one weak hand only, in the dark?
30 rounds of 5.56 in a platform that can be readily handled, one handed, with 30 more in a quickly swapped magazine sure starts to look appealing.
And though my wife can handle a 12 gauge pretty well...she doesnt give me "that look", when i hand her a 223.

And plus, if my plasti-rifle gets taken in as evidence, i'll be a lot less upset than if any of my "wood and steel" heirlooms were taken.

 

[Rick R]

M4 = good
AR SBR = better
5.56mm Bullpup = Satisfaction.

 

[35 Whelen]

I'm with the OP. My AR languishes in the safe and has for a couple of years now. Maybe it's boredom. Maybe it's being tired of seeing ones like above with every accoutrement imaginable clamped to it.

If I were forced to pick just one HD firearm for eternity, it'd be a shotgun for obvious reasons. My personal pick is a common SA in .357, because I don't miss with that type firearm.

So to the OP, sell it and get what you WANT. No need owning a rifle just because a bunch of people you don't know said you should.

35W

 

[rglong81]

Taliv, I completely agree with you about the training. As far as grabbing a barrel, I can imagine element of surprise being plenty to make someone jump enough and with control of the business end, even if they panic and squeeze the trigger you can be sure it isn't in your direction. Even in a twenty-five foot open room it would take only a few strides and as many seconds to close that gap. Someone could be hiding behind a chair or a curtain and get the drop on you. There are so many different circumstances possible for every individual's home. Are there kids or others in the house? If so are you going to turn the place into swiss cheese at the sight of every shadow you see? To each their own but I like the idea of blading myself and having my handgun close to my chest where if someone did jump out at me I could use my weak hand to hold them off, pivot away, or even drop straight to the ground and fire. Whatever it takes to keep my firearm from becoming my would-be attacker's advantage. In most situations a person won't even get the chance to line up their sights or optics...or so I'm told.

benEzra, if a FMJ can do that to 3/4" thick steel then I think even an HP on drywall would be as effective if not more. Especially if the hollowpoint became packed with drywall and failed to expand as some hollowpoints do. The smaller slug not only has less chance of hitting wiring or studs but in my experience they tend to have better penetrating abilities than larger diameter rounds depending on the power propelling it. I understand there is underpowered specialty ammo available but from the sounds of things people pack some magic round that cand do it all regardless of the occasion and I am also willing to bet most folks don't have a dedicated HD AR setup but their typical range toy loaded with whatever ammo they deemed fit for the zombie apocalypse or the equivilent of a SWAT style home invasion. You could be right. I've shot drywall and everything makes holes in it. I can't speak for plumbing, wires, and wood beams behind it though.

Anyways, I'm not here to turn anyone's world upside down or make them change. Just sharing my own experiences and thoughts. I'm no expert and haven't done it all. I'm just here for entertainment with like minded folks because these discussions sure beat all the mindnumbing crap on facebook.

 

[Bobson]

Indoors I'd want a handgun or shotgun.

Outdoors against one aggressor from 50 yards or less I'd want a shotgun.

Outdoors against multiple aggressors from 50 yards or more I'd want the M1A

Is there something I'm missing here? :banghead:

Outdoors multiple aggressors 50 yards or less.

If you don't want it, sell it. Thing is, I'd want it.

 

[IndianaBoy]

so by my bedside is a no frills 12 gauge loaded with alternating slugs and 00buck

Just curious..... What is the problem that is overcome by alternating slugs/buck?


I think a 12 gauge with buckshot is a pretty good choice. An AR is more ideal in my opinion, but a shotgun is pretty dang effective. But what do you gain by mixing slugs into the equation?

 

[Ironicaintit]

Just curious..... What is the problem that is overcome by alternating slugs/buck?

Its just an old habit that my dad taught me, I guess. And it always made sense to me. My preference is typically for the 00buck. But I can envision where I want to get through that sheetrock, and possibly lumber, with enough energy left to drop the enemy in my home who thinks he is safely behind cover and can wait me out. Thus, slugs.
I know every creak and groan of my place, can navigate it in pitch black, and have no neighbors.