Second guessing the AR for SD

[benEzra]

benEzra, if a FMJ can do that to 3/4" thick steel then I think even an HP on drywall would be as effective if not more. Especially if the hollowpoint became packed with drywall and failed to expand as some hollowpoints do. The smaller slug not only has less chance of hitting wiring or studs but in my experience they tend to have better penetrating abilities than larger diameter rounds depending on the power propelling it. I understand there is underpowered specialty ammo available but from the sounds of things people pack some magic round that cand do it all regardless of the occasion and I am also willing to bet most folks don't have a dedicated HD AR setup but their typical range toy loaded with whatever ammo they deemed fit for the zombie apocalypse or the equivilent of a SWAT style home invasion. You could be right. I've shot drywall and everything makes holes in it. I can't speak for plumbing, wires, and wood beams behind it though.

The difference is that a fragile, lightweight varmint hollowpoint spinning at over 300,000 rpm that gets whacked by multiple slabs of drywall at Mach 3 is going to destabilize, and a sufficiently fragile bullet will disintegrate when it does so. A slow, robust handgun bullet may clog up and behave like a solid, but a .22 caliber JHP or SP at 3000+ ft/sec typically won't. It may make it through one or two walls in the process of fragmenting, but if you go look at the link, the 55gr softpoint (a very good defensive load) fragments in the first and second wall and does not penetrate the third wall. Realistic wall spacing is important, though, and more robust bullets (like bonded core hunting bullets, or most FMJ) will keep on going.

For reference, here is the results with Winchester Ranger 55gr .223 softpoint:

http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/results.html

The first rounds provided the ubiquitous clean holes through the first wall.


Winchester Ranger 55-grain Softpoints, Wall 1

But only chunks hit the second wall. These were larger fragments than the V-Max bullet produced, and several of them penetrated the second wall, continuing on to the third.


Winchester Ranger 55-grain Softpoints, Wall 2
Preexisting holes digitally removed; click here for original.

Only one fragment appeared to make it through the first of the drywall sheets in the final wall; the rest just left tiny speckles.


Winchester Ranger 55-grain Softpoints, Wall 3

(Much more at the link: http://how-i-did-it.org/drywall/results.html)

Compare that to 00 buckshot, which penetrated all three wall sections:



On the other hand, Hornady TAP 55gr is apparently a more robust bullet, and penetrated all three wall sections like buckshot did. Slower, heavier 7.62x39mm also penetrated all three wall sections, so choose accordingly based on your situation.

I am also willing to bet most folks don't have a dedicated HD AR setup but their typical range toy loaded with whatever ammo they deemed fit for the zombie apocalypse or the equivilent of a SWAT style home invasion.

My AR is set up with a sling and a light, and loaded with either Federal 55gr JHP (T223E) or Winchester 55gr softpoint. It's a good alternative to the traditional HD shotgun if you're not a shotgunner, IMO. Yes, it is also the gun I shoot the most at the range, but that's not a bad thing, IMO; ideally, any HD gun should be one you shoot well and often.

 

[C-grunt]

One thing not being mentioned is that if you are using a long gun for home defense you really need a good sling. This allows you to free up a hand or two for other tasks. Plus if someone grabs your barrel it helps with freeing the weapon techniques.

Easiest technique is to take a huge step back and lean or take a knee back. a person is not going to be able to overcome your body weight and will either let go or will usually bring the barrel in line for a shot. We practiced this at work during CQB training and it works really well.

 

[Ironicaintit]

And then theres this option

http://www.biggerhammer.net/armpistol/

One of my favorites! A bullpup in 5.56/223 would be pretty badass for HD.

 

[taliv]

Easiest technique is to take a huge step back and lean or take a knee back. a person is not going to be able to overcome your body weight and will either let go or will usually bring the barrel in line for a shot. We practiced this at work during CQB training and it works really well.

exactly. that's why i said somebody grabbing your barrel is going to have a very very short lived advantage. they are getting shot as soon as you lean, step or fall backwards unless they are willing to fall with you

 

[Captains1911]

Nobody should be grabbing a barrel because nobody should be foolishly walking through their house searching for a perp. They should rather be hunkered down somewhere with 911 on the phone and with the gun barrel pointed at the only entrance to the room. The exception is if you need to move through the house to get to a loved one.

 

[justice06rr]

IMO, an AR is not ideal for home typical defense. Grab the AR when the riots kick off.

We live in a free country, so prepare how you want. I'd just caution to keep considerations in the realm of reality.

Lets not forget the downfalls of pistols.
- Can be underpowered depending on caliber (people are known to survive multiple 45acp shots)
- Can be knocked out of your hands easily if carried by one hand (cannot be used with a sling)
- Less capacity (unless you go with a 33rd mag for Glock 19)

Using a Carbine inside a home is realistic. Do not dismiss a good rifle's ability when properly deployed. The only downside I see of the AR is overall length.

Watch this video for some tips on using a carbine in tight spaces (by Rob Pincus of Personal Defense Network):
https://youtu.be/KDOpEZejqiA?list=PLB40A449E6B907C98

Here's another one by Larry Vickers:
https://youtu.be/yNcrysTdKKc?list=PLB40A449E6B907C98

 

[CoalTrain49]

I just read the whole 4 pages of this thread and not one person mentioned the fact that AR's are banned or restricted in some manner in 6 states.

Roughly 25% of the US population can't own an AR or have one that functions like a normal AR should.

OK, now back to the discussion about how great they are for SD.

 

[ljnowell]

Banned or restricted in 6 states? That's like 12% not 25%, unless I botched my math. Even then in a few of those states, if not all there are ways to own one.

 

[Inebriated]

Home defense planning is much more critical than the firearm you choose. Get your plan, get educated on what gun and load will do what you need, and learn to use it in low light/no light.

I just read the whole 4 pages of this thread and not one person mentioned the fact that AR's are banned or restricted in some manner in 6 states.

Roughly 25% of the US population can't own an AR or have one that functions like a normal AR should.

OK, now back to the discussion about how great they are for SD.

26.3% of the global population is under the age of 15.

Therefore, all guns are clearly bad for self defense because 26.3% of people can't own them.

See? I can make pointless comments as well.

 

[C-grunt]

Banned or restricted in 6 states? That's like 12% not 25%, unless I botched my math. Even then in a few of those states, if not all there are ways to own one.

Thats why I said the AR or other like carbines.

 

[shiftyer1]

Unless you broke and need the cash, or you got a really great offer to sell or swap...i'd keep it. You have a decent quality rifle. I'm not a big ar guy and swore i'd never own one. I now own one and while it's not my go to it may very well get there. I do have many pistols and shotguns which are ready but the .223 caliber has been very useful to me. From squirrels to hogs it does the trick.......I can't say that for buckshot or slugs or handguns either!

 

[CoalTrain49]

See? I can make pointless comments as well.

Well, if you lived in Massachusetts, New York, New Jersey, California, Maryland, or Connecticut, I don't think you would consider it a pointless comment.

Banned or restricted in 6 states? That's like 12% not 25%, unless I botched my math. Even then in a few of those states, if not all there are ways to own one.

CA. alone has 12% of the population of the US. When you throw in those other heavily populated states it doubles. Sure, there are ways to own one. First one would be to register it. If you can live with that I guess you're GTG. Personally, I wouldn't want to be one of three people in my town with a registered AR.

 

[ljnowell]

Thats why I said the AR or other like carbines.

I still don't see how adding "other like carbines" raises that percentage to 25%.

 

[ljnowell]

CA. alone has 12% of the population of the US. When you throw in those other heavily populated states it doubles. Sure, there are ways to own one. First one would be to register it. If you can live with that I guess you're GTG. Personally, I wouldn't want to be one of three people in my town with a registered AR.

That's kind of my point. While California has a large population, you can still own an AR.

 

[Tirod]

Lot's of presumption going on.

First - how did they get in? Biggest reason is the homeowner opened the door. If that is your typical response you need to rethink where you live, or how you respond.

Second, regardless of the weapon, bullets go thru sheetrock construction. There are far more loads that do, than loads that won't as much, and about none effective for self defense that won't. Bluntly, it's a fools errand/typical internet post to search for "low penetration ammo." Not only will the ammo penetrate, it will more often still be effectively lethal.

Add that if you are shooting toward an opening the bad guys are coming thru, there is no obstacle other than air to stop the bullet until it comes to whatever backstop exists further out. Since one of the four rules of shooting is KNOW YOUR BACKSTOP it's more than obvious that those proposing to fire away have not taken the time to map out their shooting lanes in defense to see where their bullets are going. Like, the neighbors windows. BB guns can defeat double pane e-glass. There is no low penetration ammo solution. It's an indication of serious undereducation about ballistics.

Let's not forget the perps won't bother and your family hiding behind you is downrange in their bullets flight. Are you really sure you want to hunker down in a back room where they can and will shoot thru the doors and walls?

You are better off going out the back. The One Rule of combat discovered and used over centuries of conflict is to create distance - the further you are away, the harder it is for them to reach you. Arrange weapons in order of reach and you see a continuing timeline of standoff, from the first rock picked up in anger, to sharpened sticks, bows and arrows, firearms, artillery, cruise missiles - there is a point to that progression. Gain standoff whenever possible.

Goes to Don't Open the Door.

If you need to bolster your security to the point where you are 100% armed every minute inside your house - and some would make the point we all need to be - then it boils down to having a firearm with the ballistics to match the short ranges involved alone with the compatibility to be carried and accessible all the time. In the shower, working on the car, mowing the grass. A handgun does that and is your PRIMARY tool for home self defense. If things get so upside down you need more - your plan of evasion and escape should have led you to the gun you needed on the way out.

Choose what you want, some have different advantages, and if you are working it out unemotionally based on some kind of empirical ballistic application - you might find you would be best served by a type of gun you detest. Well, get over it, thems the facts, like it or not.

This is where most of the internet jousting comes into play and what seems to be most of what this thread contains. Everybody has an opinion but few are willing to listen and think about it. Most of what is proposed is fantasy, the response tailored to the proponents specific bias in firearms. It's usually a decision of A vs B when reality tells you it's handgun to long gun and capacity has a lot of influence. There is also the gritty constraints of budget - not everybody can afford some high end special armament even if it was sitting in the rack at Walmart. Even if they could - should they get involved in a single source weapon with expensive parts - some don't sell the parts at all. (You Ruger fans need to reconsider your long term needs for self defense, much less the bullpup fanboys.)

Commonly available plain guns with a good source of parts are preferable to exotic imports with little in the way of support - if you are practicing as you should.

Now, for all the home invasion scenario thinkers - have you mapped out your shooting lanes when your exterior security measures are obviously failing? Have you actually practiced in a controlled shoot house set up with your floor plan and found what doesn't work?

No. Because it's an internet fantasy discussion. If you haven't even mapped out lines in the sand and had your training partner act as the perp, you will never know where the fatal flaws exist. Maybe taking a paintball hit or two will bring that to the forefront of your consciousness. Hmm?

Try walking thru your house with a video cam, then film it from the other point of view with family acting as the intruder. You are going to see things you didn't. And also get a record of what the perps could take for insurance purposes at the same time. Have you even written down the serial numbers on the TV and stereo stuff? X-Box? Bad guys are there for reasons. We have a thread on "Do you have your gun serial numbers recorded?" Do you? They aren't there for the baby photo album - unless you broke the rule about which women you shelter.

We had a killing locally just yesterday, the issue was about a grille and patio table and who had ownership. Her father shot the boyfriend dead trying to repossess it if you read between the lines. There are a lot of home intrusions based on bad relationships. Why?

Stick with one wife for life, you may not reduce the hassles but at least you are committed and don't both live in poverty. :banghead:

Off my soapbox. Continue the debate.

 

[CoalTrain49]

That's kind of my point. While California has a large population, you can still own an AR.

True. If you owned it before Jan 1, 2000. You can't buy and register an AR today in CA. You can buy something that sort of looks like an AR, but it isn't an AR, it's just a look alike with a 10 rd non-detachable mag.

Maybe that's your idea of an AR, but it isn't mine.

My point is 25% of the US population is just better off owning something else for SD. How do you CC an AR?

The AR proponents are beginning to sound a little bit like Angry Joe and his double barreled SD plan.

 

[Inebriated]

Well, if you lived in Massachusetts, New York, New Jersey, California, Maryland, or Connecticut, I don't think you would consider it a pointless comment.

People in those states will address their situation differently. No one worth listening to will say that the AR is the only choice, but there is no logic to be found in some thinly-veiled comment that it's not a good choice because not everyone can own one.

 

[Jeff White]

My point is 25% of the US population is just better off owning something else for SD.

The OP is not in that 25% of the population. Why is his question invalid because by your estimate 25% of the population can't own what you personally consider a true AR?

How do you CC an AR?

No one asked this, why are you taking the conversation there? It's irrelevant to a discussion of home defense.

If we only discuss self defense options that are available to 100% of the population we won't discuss any self defense options except for open and closed hand defensive tactics. You are correct in that many people can't own an AR, of course there is even a greater number of people who can't own a firearm at all. All manner of weapons, from OC spray to knives are illegal somewhere. We wouldn't have many conversations about defensive uses of any weapon if we excluded every option that wasn't available to everyone.

But since this is the rifle forum and the OP started a thread about using an AR for defensive purposes, that's what we are discussing.

 

[C-grunt]

I still don't see how adding "other like carbines" raises that percentage to 25%.

Whoops. Quoted the wrong guy. Trying to quote the guy you quoted.

 

[ljnowell]

Whoops. Quoted the wrong guy. Trying to quote the guy you quoted.

lol! Been there done that!

 

[CoalTrain49]

The OP is not in that 25% of the population. Why is his question invalid because by your estimate 25% of the population can't own what you personally consider a true AR?

I didn't say his question was invalid nor did I try to invalidate his question in any post. As a matter of fact I support his statement that he could find no good reason to use an AR for SD. The OP said;

I can't think of a scenario where I'd choose my AR as my weapon for SD.

Indoors I'd want a handgun or shotgun.

Outdoors against one aggressor from 50 yards or less I'd want a shotgun.

I think he has made an astute observation, although many here believe that an AR is just as good if not better than a pistol for SD.

While we're here I would like to point out that many home invasions start off by an individual knocking on your door to see if you are home. Once you answer your door they assess the situation. If you look like an easy target they're coming in. Home invasions don't always happen at night with lots of noise and breaking glass.

If you want a good all around SD weapon it better be within reach 100% of the time. I don't know anyone who is serious about SD in their home, on their property or on the street that doesn't prescribe to that line of thinking, although you might.

I'm also pretty sure that most people keep their rifles locked up in their safe. Do you keep your AR loaded and propped up against a wall when you're home? How about when you're not home? Does it go with you, get locked up or just stay out?

 

[Jeff White]

I keep mine cruiser ready (empty chamber, safety on, loaded mag in the mag well) in easy reach in the bedroom.

I don't answer the door and no one else in the household does until the identity of the person at the door has been verified.

Anyone attempting to force the door will meet a rather unpleasant surprise. I had to train my grandchildren not to answer the door when they stayed here while my son was in Iraq and Afghanistan. It took a little convincing for kids who only knew on post housing in the past to understand that grandpa was a police officer and the people who came to the door here might not be very nice.

 

[Inebriated]

I didn't say his question was invalid nor did I try to invalidate his question in any post. As a matter of fact I support his statement that he could find no good reason to use an AR for SD. The OP said;



I think he has made an astute observation, although many here believe that an AR is just as good if not better than a pistol for SD.

While we're here I would like to point out that many home invasions start off by an individual knocking on your door to see if you are home. Once you answer your door they assess the situation. If you look like an easy target they're coming in. Home invasions don't always happen at night with lots of noise and breaking glass.

If you want a good all around SD weapon it better be within reach 100% of the time. I don't know anyone who is serious about SD in their home, on their property or on the street that doesn't prescribe to that line of thinking, although you might.

I'm also pretty sure that most people keep their rifles locked up in their safe. Do you keep your AR loaded and propped up against a wall when you're home? How about when you're not home? Does it go with you, get locked up or just stay out?

Your post is full of assumptions about how home defense situations arise and how people plan.

 

[taliv]

I'm also pretty sure that most people keep their rifles locked up in their safe. Do you keep your AR loaded and propped up against a wall when you're home? How about when you're not home? Does it go with you, get locked up or just stay out?

plenty in the safe, yes, but no, the HD one is propped against a wall, same condition as Jeff's. i bring a pistol to the door

 

[justice06rr]

I keep mine cruiser ready (empty chamber, safety on, loaded mag in the mag well) in easy reach in the bedroom.

I don't answer the door and no one else in the household does until the identity of the person at the door has been verified.

Same here.

Everyone who lives in my home (3 adults) have their own keys. I don't answer the door to anyone without first checking through the peephole or window.

To put things in perspective, a pistol, rifle, or shotgun are all good for SD. Its all a matter of training and assessing your own situation since everyone is different. Use what works for you.