Selecting a rifle, need a point of reference...

[dagger dog]

Just some thoughts on the recoil thing.

The felt recoil of any rifle is relative to the shooter.

Felt recoil has a lot to do with the design of the stock.

The newer designs with little or no drop , seem more recoil forgiving, the push is straight back and not up. That upward recoil slaps the cheek or forces the thumb knuckle into the area under the eye or around the nose.

The .30 cals, if using the same weight bullets at the same velocities will recoil just about the same giving all else is the same :rifle weight and design.

The 12 ga with slug loadings, or that muzzle stuffer with the 490 gr bullet and its loading are just about in the same felt recoil range as the center fire .30 cal non-magnum
designs.

Most find the old 30-06 to be just about on the upper limit of FUN to shoot.!

 

[rust collector]

Shawnee, it's a great bit of advice even if the sturm & drang lovers don't want to hear it. I was going to ditto CB900's advice, and I'll second your suggestion as well.

Some people love their magnums, and if they can shoot them well, I'm happy for them. All I know is that those to whom accuracy is everything will use the kindest chambering they can to accomplish their goals.

6.5x55 is just a user-friendly chambering that works, and the 260 rem should follow suit. 308 has a million man-hours of load development behind it, but will push on you a bit more. The others all work, but you just have to ask yourself why.

Some folks like recoil, so there are weatherbys, soviet M38s, and tyrannosaurs for them.

 

[22-rimfire]

My general purpose rifle is a 270 win. It is a toss up between the 270 > 30-06 calibers. They are all about the same in terms of preformance. For bench shooting, you're probably better off with the 308. I personally don't shoot rifles like that from the bench unless you are trying for long range shooting or simply shooting in preparation for hunting. The 223 is a far better caliber for bench shooting in general and it would make an excellent wood chuck rifle caliber.

Your link said "chestnut ridge", so I assume you are in PA. The calibers you are thinking about will work just fine for Appalachian game.

If you lean towards shooting wood chucks and deer, then I might go for the 243 win myself. It is a bit small however for elk. You might even get a PA elk tag if you're lucky.

Good luck. It goes to show you that even liberals hunt or want to hunt. Politics do not enter the picture.

 

[Shawnee]

Water-Man...

http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp


Rust collector...

Agreed on the .260, and even the 7mm/08 is fine for elk without being too exuberant in the recoil dept.

 

[goon]

I kind of second the idea of shopping for a used Savage.
They turn up in my area in .270 and .30'06 in good shape and scoped for around $350.
You may also consider the 7mm-08. I haven't shot one for awhile but IIRC, it was a gentle cartridge on my shoulder. Same for the 6.5x55 Swede but it hasn't been chambered in many commercial rifles.

 

[Water-Man]

Shawnee... I got mine from Chuck Hawks.

 

[rbernie]

I prefer a 30/30 for most kinds of work, although I have 270s and 308s as well.

My first rifle was a 30/30. I taught my first wife to shoot using this 30/30, loaded with 125gr varmint bullets. Loading the same rifle with 170gr RNs gives plenty of energy for up to 500lb game inside of 150-200 yards.

About fifteen years ago, I succumbed to the siren song of 'flatter trajectories' and 'downrange energy' and I retired the 30/30s in favor of 30-06s and other higher performance rounds. All I got in return was a lot more BLAM! and BLAST! and more expensive ammo. The targets still had the same holes in 'em, but I was shooting less and I enjoyed shooting a lot less as well.

I later learned, from taking up hunting, that flatter trajectories and retained energy was less important in the grand scheme of things than learning to shoot from field positions, learning to estimate/calculate distance, and learning proper shot placement. That 'old' 30/30 that seemed so archaic on paper actually proved to be pretty much all I needed, after all.

For the last six years or so, I've been hunting with either 30/30 or 7.62x39 chambered rifles. They flatly do the job at any range I'm likely to need, for any game I'm likely to encounter. They also are forgiving for handloading and among the least expensive rounds to buy.

Like I said - I still have a 270 and a bunch of 308s. But they don't get nearly the use as do my 30/30 and 7.62x39 chambered rifles.

 

[Shawnee]

High-5 to Ya, "RBernie" !

Good post !

and Viva La .30/30 !

 

[JImbothefiveth]

So - according to this, a 1oz slug (437.5 gr), with a velocity of say 1250fps, and a 25gr charge - would yield around 19 (18.94 actually) ft/lb of recoil energy.

That would put it somewhere between a 30/06 and a 7mm mag.

Does that sound about right?

No, slugs have some major kick to them.

I think the calculator's way off.

 

[Supertac45]

If Elk is the biggest you ever plan on, get the .270 or 30-06. Either will do great, and you have a great selection of game rounds to hunt with. I like Nosler ammo, not the white box Wallmart ammo. 6.5x55 Swede is another excellent round when the right ammo is used. Lots of factory selection in these rounds.

 

[Shawnee]

A 1 oz. 12ga. slug from the standard 2.75" shell fired from a 6.75lb. shotgun is slightly more than 19 ft./lbs. of recoil.

 

[TCB in TN]

Shawnee I don't think your .270#'s are right. There is no way that the .270 shooting similar performing loads is that far below the 30-06. I love the .270 but that's not close to right.

What numbers did you use to come up with that? We have always compared the 130grain .270 to the 150grain 30-06 and while there is a difference it is usually like about 12-15% not 60%.

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=56996

Here is one I found that makes more sense.

.270 130 15.99ft/lbs recoil
30-06 150 17.82

 

[Shawnee]

TCB .....


You're right. I re-ran the numbers for the .270 and came up with 16 ft./lbs. Did it again and came up with 16 again. I must have done an error the first time. Went back and corrected my other post.

 

[goon]

I agree on the 30-30.
A Marlin lever action 30-30 is also an excellent choice for most uses and they're great rifles CHEAP!

 

[MAKster]

The 19 ft lbs for the slug is way off because he used a too low velocity. Slugs are going typically 1600 ft/sec not 1250.

 

[elktrout]

Sinixstar:
Good for you that you are doing your homework to determine the best gun for YOU and not someone else. Too many shooters buy guns based on conjecture and not facts ---- and recoil is a fact with any substantial caliber.

Recoil bothers all of us the most when shooting from the bench. When I go to the range, I wear a PAST magnum recoil pad over top of two pieces of thick foam (the kind used for carpet padding). I also set up my rifle so that I can sit erect behind the butt instead of slouched over it. These two things take a tremendous amount of the pounding out of the shooting session. I have a 7mm Weatherby Magnum that I can shoot as long as I want this way and not mind it.

Based on your threads and replies, it appears that you want buy enough gun for deer hunting and the occasional trip to Colorado. If you have never hunted the west, you have to consider some factors that will possibly affect your hunting success (if you have the wrong gun):

1. The open country of the west may dictate shooting at a longer range than you are accustomed to.
2. Your gun has to be capable of delivering a big enough punch at longer (more than 200 yards) range to humanely stop the animal. Light calibers are sufficient, in some cases, at 100-150 yards but lack punch at longer ranges. 3. The west is WINDY. Shots in totally calm conditions are rare. You must have a caliber and bullet weight combo that can minimize the effect of the wind. And, the wind is a HUGE factor if you start shooting at longer range.

I cannot speak for everyone of us on this site that live and hunt in the west, but my acquaintances in Colorado largely favor the good old 30-06 and have killed a lot of game with it out to 300 yards. It would be a good choice for you to consider.

 

[Shawnee]

Sinixstar...

The debate about which caliber is best for elk - and even which calibers are good for elk has been raging for decades and, frankly, it usually generates more heat than light.

On one side are the people who insist an elk hunter needs a caliber that can swat an elk like a fly at 500, 600, 700 yds. etc. These folks recommend calibers like the 7mm Rem. Mag., the .308 or 30/06, the .300 Win. Mag. and the .338 magnum.

On another side are the people who are in favor of calibers in the low-to-medium recoil range because they know that 1.) shot placement is 80% of the task, and 2.) many, if not most, elk are killed at ranges of 250yds. or less and, because elk are chiefly timber-dwellers, many, many are killed at 150yds. or less. These people recommend calibers like the .25/06, 6.55x55 Swedish Mauser, the 7x57 Mauser, the 7mm/08, the .270, and the .280 Rem. For heavily timbered areas they will add the recommendation of calibers like the .30/30, the .35 Remington, the .30/40 Krag,the .38/55.

On yet another side are the hunters who kill many, many elk every year with old-fashioned muzzleloaders, and with arrows... even though their effective range is barely 100yds. or less. These folks will recommend the various .50 caliber and 54 caliber black powder rifles - and bows of from 55lb. pull and higher.

Of course members of each group have developed all the arguments and reasons why their choices are best, or good, or more sportsmanlike - yadda, yadda, yadda. And as you surely can anticipate - members of each group have also developed all the reasons why any choice but theirs is totally insane. And the all members of each group have a brother-in-law or friend who has been an elk guide since Christ was a Cub Scout and who swears by ________ (insert their favorite weapon/caliber).

But the bare-faced Truth of the entire matter is this -

Members of each group kill truckloads of elk every year in every state - West or East.

Good luck

 

[scythefwd]

The calibers i'm most interested in are the .243, .270(either Win, WSM, or Wby), or possibly something like a .300 WSM or .308

.270 and .308 will kick like your 30-06. The .300 wsm will feel like it has just ripped off your shoulder if the -06 hurt enough to make you quit after 1 shot. The .243 is a very mild kick compaired to the -06. The .300 wsm will kick more than a slug out of a 12 ga shotgun (depending on the weight of the shotgun). The .308, and .270 will be less than a 12ga. The .243 isn't up to elk (for most shooters, there isn't a ton of wiggle room for shot placement) but the .308 and .270 are if you can keep a good group and hit the vitals (grouping should be +/- 3 inches at 200y to keep it in the heart out to 300y, in the lungs out to 500y and that ain't an easy shot).

 

[scythefwd]

If you ever get the chance to stop by in VA on a saturday, PM me. I will take you out and let you try a very mild 30-06. It will weigh a ton 9.5lbs, but it will probably kick a little less than a 7mm 08 because it weighs so much and it is a semi auto. You'll also get to be the first person besides me to shoot the garand . I also have a .30-30 you can try, as well as a 7.62-39 and I might be able to get you a shot with a mosin. I'll then let you compair those kicks to a shotgun slug moving out at 1700 fps.

 

[oregonhunter]

Shawnee you act as if your gods gift to hunting and rifle selection, while your opinion is no more important than mine or any other member on this site. Your elk knowledge is extensive, but you live in ohio.

Out here there are many elk hunters that shoot the 270, many that shoot the 30-06 and many that shoot the 300 or 338 win mags. They all work very well. I prefer the 300 win for my elk duties, but according to shawnee I must be a loony looking to take 600 yard shots.

Sinxstar I vote 30-06 or 270 and a plus if you choose a winchester model 70.

 

[Shawnee]

Hi Oregonhunter...

I currently live and hunt in Ohio. I've lived (and hunted) in a lot of places.

My post above says there are multiple types of elk hunting, multiple types of elk hunters, and multiple types of weapons that can, and are, used effectively for elk. Are you calling me a liar for saying that ?

But nowhere in my post do I see the word "loony" nor the statement that a .300 Win Mag. won't work on elk. So, with all due respect, your accusations of me are lies.

 

[oregonhunter]

Those above who recommended the 6.5x55 Swede or the .25/06 or the .270
are people who have used their head for something other than to hold their Skoal

 

[Shawnee]

"...nowhere in my post do I see the word "loony" nor the statement that a .300 Win Mag. won't work on elk. So, with all due respect, your accusations of me are lies."