Self defense piece for Mom

[Spindrift]

Doesn't Taurus make a nice 9 or 12 shot stub nose .22 LR. 9 or 12 CCI Stingers or Velocitors seems like a dandy carry piece for an elderly lady.
Another thought is a gun I own. I own a 6 shot stub nose Taurus 731 UL. It is a 32 H&R Magnum cylinder, and they can sting a bit, but when you load them with MagTech S&W Long 98 grain semi-jacket Hollow Points it is a baby to shoot. It seems that it shoots the 98 grain S&W Longs Semi-Jacketed HP better than the 100 grain H&R Magnums as far as accuracy goes. It is a good revolver. A little stiff on the trigger pull, but that can be remedied.

Good luck

That is an interesting thought. I just looked up that 731 UL and it says its a 17 ounce gun. Looks like it is out of production though.
I hadn't really given much thought to the .32 H&R magnum. If I understand correctly, they perform somewhere in between the standard .38 and the .380 auto?
Hmm..and shucks, if I got one of those, I'd have to tool up the reloader for another caliber.

 

[Eb1]

Spindrift, my mom has your mom beat. lol Just kidding.

She does like the Rossi 44 Special the best. The DA Trigger is like glass to break and smooth as a hot knife through butter. The recoil isn't bad either as the 3" frame helps.

She liked the Model 60 .357 Magnum also, and she is 66 years old. What she didn't like was the noise. It did hurt her hand some with .357's, but shot mostly .38 Specials in it at the range.
Like I said. She ended up just liking my .44 Special best, and it didn't cost us any money. We keep it loaded with near pure lead round nose Remington 246 grain cartridges, and I have no issues with that. The soft lead will do what it needs to do.

Like I said, good luck, and there are other mom's out there some may be old than yours who like shooting stub nose revolvers.

I'd say other than the size of the hole it is on par with a .38 Special. The 32 H&R Magnum from Georgia Arms moves 1070 fps from my 2" stubby and is a 100 grain XTP bullet. So maybe it is in between both or right at equal to on or the other. I know that I had to put down a deer in rut with a large neck, and I used my carry gun as I had shot it with a deer rifle. It broke two vertebrate and traveled 10" from about 3 yards away. Mushroomed like a picture perfect round you see on a box. This was a 100 grain XTP 32 H&R Magnum round from Georgia Arms.
I now prefer to shoot 32 S&W Longs in it because Georgia Arms changed a component, and they are not accurate any longer in my gun. But the MagTech 98 grain Semi Jacketed HPs S&W Long are as accurate as it comes. At 7 yards with a 3" target circle in rapid fire they all hit in the 3" circle, and recoil is nothing. Absolutely nothing. I'd trust my life on a barrage of 98 grain S&W Longs at 3 to 7 yards as I now carry that revolver and a .380 ACP. I like smaller guns that I can conceal well with little weight.
They do make the 731 UL every now and then, and you can find them at gun stores. Mine has been flawless and fun to shoot.

 

[BCRider]

Better a gun and ammo combination where she can handle the recoil and put repeated accurate shots on target than one which kicks so hard that it either becomes difficult to hold on target or which hurts her hands so much that it ends up kicking right out of her grip and either sitting oddly in her hands or even falling to the ground.

So if her general condition at this point in her life is such that she's now more comfortable with .38Spl from these revolvers then I'd suggest that this is the right answer for her at this point in her life. Power is nothing without control after all. So set her up with something that she can control well rather than worrying about stopping power.

If you and her feel you need to make up for the lesser power of whatever ammo then get her out and work together on getting good rise/point/3rapid shots in good time and decent grouping at 4 to 7 yards. Use "more of less" to add up to the sort of stopping power you feel she needs.

Along this same line of "using more of less" what about a semi in .380? Any chance of trying something like that working out for her? Using the over the top four fingers and palm method of racking the slide described on the Cornered Cat website might work for her. Or has she tried that option?

 

[Eb1]

I'd recommend a break barrel in .380 ACP like a Beretta 84/86 if going with a .380. I find that sometimes woman just don't like racking the slide. My wife just doesn't like racking a slide.

A larger Beretta with a break barrel DA/SA in .380 ACP sounds like a good option.

 

[Spindrift]

Along this same line of "using more of less" what about a semi in .380? Any chance of trying something like that working out for her? Using the over the top four fingers and palm method of racking the slide described on the Cornered Cat website might work for her. Or has she tried that option?

Yeah, we've tried that with a few different guns. I have an LCP, a stainless AMT backup and a Makarov in .380. The racking method you described puts too much pressure on the palm area of her hand where they had made the incisions and makes it painful. Thats the reason she wants to stay with a revolver.

 

[Spindrift]

I'd recommend a break barrel in .380 ACP like a Beretta 84/86 if going with a .380. I find that sometimes woman just don't like racking the slide. My wife just doesn't like racking a slide.

A larger Beretta with a break barrel DA/SA in .380 ACP sounds like a good option.

Not a bad idea to look into that one. That may be a great way for her to get into a semi-auto.
I think I'll stop at my favorite local gun store on the way home from work and see about a couple of the ones that have been suggested. Ultimately, the choice is hers but hey, who doesn't like gun shopping?

 

[golden]

Several questions

SPINDRIFT,

Several questions come to mind.

1. How about a lighter kicking ammo. This way, she can keep the same gun.
In my aluminum J-frames, I use the FEDERAL 125 grain NYCLAD ammo, sometimes called the CHIEF SPECIAL LOAD.
It is mild kicking and more effective than expected, due to the very soft lead hollow point. Leading the barrel is not an issue because of the nylon coating.
WARNING: THIS LOAD MAY BE VERY HARD TO FIND.
You may want to try some of the 110 grain loads. Some are +P, so try both if you can and go with whatever load works best for her.

2. If she cannot handle those loads, you can keep familiarity by going to either a steel J-frame revolver like the S&W model 36 CHEIF SPECIAl or one of the CHARTER ARMS or TAURUS 5 shot models. Try the PACHMAYR Compac grips. I found them very comfortable on this size gun.

3. I would also check out the 6 shot CHARTER ARMS Police Undercover. It can handle +P and while not really comfortable with it, it is controlable. My nieces use this combination and I have shot it as well as carried it.
It usually come with GRIPPER style grips that are easier to conceal and hold well, but they can transmit more felt recoil. You may prefrer to use a wider grip.

4. If she will use a semi-auto, then the BERETTA model 84 was a terrrific suggestion. VERY, VERY RELIABLE and accurate with a 13 round magazine and good sights. The downside is that this is a much larger gun. You cannot pocket carry it, so be prepared.
The Czech made CZ 83 is also a very good choice. A little heavier than the BERETTA, but also very reliable and a good shooter.
Both the BERETTA and CZ have great triggers in double action.

NOTE: BOTH ARE NO LONGER BEING IMPORTED, BUT ARE VERY EASY TO FIND NEW OR USED.

5. LIGHT KICKING 9M.M. My wife uses my old SIG 225. The action is smooth and easy to control, the grip is much easier to handle than the larger double collumn magazines and the recoil with standard velocity hollow point is not bad at all.
My wife has problems with recoil, but she can shoot the SIG.

6. If the BERETTA model 84 grip is to large, the slimmer 85 may work, but the difference is small. I really like the SIG 232 in .380ACP with the blue frame. This is the model that has the aluminum frame, so the weight is about 18 ounces. Recoil is moderate due to the excellent grip and the sights and trigger are up to the SIG reputation.

I hope this helps,

Jim

 

[22-rimfire]

The answer is 38spl +P's which really aren't all that +. She's used to the gun. Keep it that way and shoot less recoiling ammo. The 38spl is plenty of protection for most people.

I have to say that I don't particularly enjoy shooting my S&W 442 (in 38spl +P's), but it is for "business" and you tolerate it.

 

[j1]

S &. W 38 Spl. Enough but not too much.

 

[Tomac]

You might consider the SIG P250sc .380. Very light recoil, slide is easy to rack, 12+1 capacity, smooth/light DAO-style trigger.
Tomac

 

[MedWheeler]

Spindrift, you've taken quite a bit of offense at the reaction some here offered when they read your post. I think these lines from your opener is where that reaction came from. Read them again, and maybe you'll understand how it sounded to some of us.

She is 67 with a slight build, and her hands have lost quite a bit of strength over the last several years making a semi-auto virtually impossible for her to manipulate and fire safely. The problem is now, she's having a difficult time with recoil when using .357's and in my humble opinion, the .38 is just simply an underperforming round.

Just sayin, is all.

But, it does sound like you're open now to more than what your opening post made it sound like. How did you like the corneredcat.com site?

Edit: two choices just came to my mind, both by Charter Arms. The Undercover and Undercoverette are both solid, decently-built five-shooters with comfortable grips, and lighter weights. The Undercover is in .38SPL, and the Undercoverette in .32H&R.

 

[Eb1]

I think he has some awesome research to do. He has been given several alternatives, and also some suggestions to keeping the J-Frame platform.

I trust my life to the 32 H&R Mag, .32 S&W Long, and .380 ACP on a daily basis. I also trust it with a 20 gauge 000 buckshot, 9mm Service Pistol, .44 Special, on and on. My point being is that I trust it to the smaller handgun ammo because I always have it with me.
I had a thread regarding staggering ammo, and it sounded like I didn't trust the .380, but I do. I was mainly speaking of if the fight went to a cover situation like in a parking garage, but I didn't state that in my post, and the thread went haywire. Kinda like some of the posts towards you.

If you can find the Beretta 84 I think that would be a dandy handgun. They are beautiful and if I could afford one after all my current projects I would. The one I have wanted for 10 years or so is Nickel with wood grips. Talk about a nice looking handgun. I personally do not care for the model 92, but have shot the 84, and it is dead on accurate.

Good luck as I said. You have plenty of homework ahead. Don't count out a .44 Special in a nice steel revolver. It has little recoil, less than a .38 in a J-Frame, and packs a big punch. Even with basic 246 grain Round Nose from Remington. The lead is so soft it would just fold over when it hit its target.

 

[Okie45]

If you are looking to introduce her to autoloaders, let her try a Ruger LC380. It has a trigger pull very similar to a revolver. It also has a slide that is extremely easy to rack. The recoil on the gun is almost nonexistent. Lots of new shooters, female shooters, and elderly shooters seem to give a positive review on this gun. The sights are also pretty decent and I've had the pleasure of shooting this gun. At 21 feet I was able to put all 7 rounds in the 10x ring. It is also the same size as the LC9, so lots of accessories are available. I actually liked the gun over the LC9 because it was a lot less snappy.

 

[Eb1]

For elderly woman and men the break barrel is a better option for an automatic. Load a mag, flip the barrel put on in then close it.
Smooth double action on the first shot, or they can cock the hammer back and go SA all the way. One up on the Ruger if you ask me. Two up would be mag capacity. Three up would be all metal gun.

 

[jim243]

My guess is that a steel framed S&W J-Frame in 38 Special +P is the best compromise.

It does seem the best solution.

Jim

 

[RJTravel]

...She could handle the gun...enjoyed it quite a bit...I don't give a damn if she carries a .22...Why is it so hard to believe that women don't suck at everything?..I like to force old ladies to shoot cannons for a kick.

Let's summarize: You think a .38 spc doesn't have enough "knockdown" power (as if ANY handgun does) and yet you don't care if she carries a .22rf? Huh? She actually "enjoyed" shooting a fullhouse .357 out of a sub-12 ounce snubby? Perhaps your mom is one of those 450 pound Samoans with wrists bigger around than my torso. If not, I for one don't believe it. You are playin' us. No one 'enjoys' shooting a full-on .357 ultralight snub, and few if any people of any age or sex can really handle it, much less 'enjoy' it. This is a ludicrous thread.

 

[PabloJ]

A container of police strength spray would probably be best choice. Second choice would be one of those Beretta pop up to load first shot pistols that can be had in 7,65 Browning.

 

[PabloJ]

Like has been recommended a gazillion times before, a S&W Model 10 4".

I owned Model 13 which is .357 version of that my friend has 9x19 version and these are large heavy weapons. Do you expect slightly built 67 year old woman to lug that around?

 

[ArchAngelCD]

You might consider the SIG P250sc .380. Very light recoil, slide is easy to rack, 12+1 capacity, smooth/light DAO-style trigger.
Tomac

If he feels the .38 Special and .38 Special +P are too weak for SD I'm sure he hates the .380 Auto but that's just my guess.

He also said:

She is 67 with a slight build, and her hands have lost quite a bit of strength over the last several years making a semi-auto virtually impossible for her to manipulate and fire safely.

So I'm fairly sure he's not looking to introduce his Mom to semi-autos like said above!
I guess there are some who answer posts without reading what has been written even by the OP.

 

[Tomac]

ArchAngelCD,
Yes, I did read the OP's first post but we're discussing what's best for his mom, not what's best for him. If he truly has her best interests at heart he'll consider *any* pistol and *any* caliber that *she* feels comfortable and confident with.
Tomac

ETA: The High Road has better standards than smarmy remarks like "I guess there are some who answer posts without reading what has been written even by the OP."

 

[BLB68]

I'm going to fall into the .38 spl in either the same gun or a heavier J-frame camp.

I'd suggest researching available loads to find one with adequate (12" or so) penetration. There are a lot of options available nowadays, including the stuff formulated for snubbies. There's likely one that can be shot comfortably and give adequate penetration.

At the end of the day, involuntary stops are about putting a deep enough hole through the right spot. Penetration and accuracy are, IMO, the most important things to look for.

Penetration can be found out with a little research. "Accuracy" is a personal thing. Your carry gun should be something you can shoot accurately at short range with a fast follow up shot. Because that first shot may not find its mark, even if the entry wound is perfectly placed.

If a .38 on the gun she's comfortable with, or one that's similar, gives good penetration and helps her make an accurate first shot with a quick and accurate follow up shot, and is comfortable for her to practice with, then it's worth considering. Same for any other caliber, really.

I'd start by looking at a 158 gr LSWC load. Here's a video of a test of the Buffalo Bore standard pressure, low flash, low recoil round. Plenty of penetration out of a mild-shooting round:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvVNtKicux4

 

[Spindrift]

Well, just an update for those who may be interested.
As of now, Mom is digging my old, worn H&R in .32 S&W. I am still on the lookout for something new for her that she might enjoy though.

 

[MattShlock]

Greetings everyone and happy Independence Day!
I have been exploring some possibilities for a carry gun for my mother.
She is 67 with a slight build, and her hands have lost quite a bit of strength over the last several years... in my humble opinion, the .38 is just simply an underperforming round... Any suggestions for me?

If she is that old and fragile I don't know why you are so scared or think you need a gun for her -- just hit her with a feather if she attacks you!

Seriosuly, what factors drew you to the conclusion the .38 is so poor? She'll need that or a .32, if anything. That's the way it goes anyway...

 

[rodinal220]

Not an uncommon problem that has been poorly addressed by "trainers" who are not realistic to real world needs. Yes carrying or having a "full size" duty rounds like 9mm,40 S&W,45acp 38spl and the like is better on paper,but there are many that cannot handle the recoil of a 38spl even with wadcutters or even an auto-pistol with standard pressure 9mm ammo.
Real world compromises have to be made. A bigger more powerful weapon that will not be used or cannot be used efficiently is worse than a smaller weapon that will be used.

The 380s out there are mostly blowback and can have sharp recoil,plus very heavy and difficult to retract slides.

The various 25 and 32 acp guns are in the same boat,being difficult to manipulate and heavy recoil springs.

I personally like the Ruger SR22 pistol in 22 rimfire. Is 22 a fight stopper,no,but its easy to control and get hits and YOU CAN defend yourself with a 22,plenty of folks right now on the slab from small caliber handgun rounds. 10 rounds of controllable 22 rimfire is a better option than misses with a heavier cartridge that cannot be properly utilized.

SR22 is easy to run and pull back the slide. Rounds from CCI(mini-mags) have a better track record for reliability,yes I'm well aware that RF isn't as reliable as CF,but its overrated if you buy quality ammo and not the typical promo/plinker stuff 99% shoot.
I like the Ruger SR22 pistol better than the Walther P22 due to better construction.

For home defense I like the new Ruger #11129 10/22 carbine with factory Ruger BX25 mags full of some CCI product.
Many cannot handle or run a 5.56 carbine,let alone AFFORD one.
YOU CAN defend your self or home with this.

Not everyone is a training or certificate junkie with the latest toys and gadgets. As Clint Clint Smith has shown,you can defend yourself with a cheap but dependable single shot shotgun or run grandpas Walther P-38 WWII bring back if thats all you have.

 

[Madcap_Magician]

Holy smokes, your older mom with hand strength issues was fine shooting a scandium J-frame .357?

... but she has trouble with hand strength?

Does... not... compute...

It's not just the substantial recoil in a .357 of that size and weight, but the fact that J-frame triggers are on the heavy side. If someone has no problem with the 10-12 lb trigger pull on a J-frame, then their inability to manually cycle a semiauto is probably a function of poor technique and inexperience rather than strength.

I recommend you find a competent instructor who can teach her the C clamp slingshot method of racking the slide of a semiauto. If she can do a 10-lb trigger with one finger, she can do a 16-lb recoil spring on a Glock 26 with both hands.