Self Defense Scenario - what say you?

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This occurred to me when I was getting out of a reputable retail store where I was gainfully employed, and we had to do inventory on a friday night or get fired. I had no gas, and had a decent drive home. I do not habitually frequent such places. Every time I've felt really threatened has been at a gas station, sometimes at night, sometimes in broad daylight.

Another thought about dialing 911, you'll have to talk on the phone. Do you not worry about them hearing your voice? If you kept tabs on the situation, the door must be cracked, and therefore when you call 911 you are blind or else discovered, then you probably will have to shoot. Maybe I'm overthinking it.
 
I would most certainly stay in the bathroom, if they came to check if someone was in there then that is a whole different story. Also, it would greatly depend on what they were doing to the clerk. I don't know if I could sit there while they beat someone to death because they wouldn't open the safe/register.

But if the clerk handed over the money and the thieves bolted with no one hurt, then that is about the best outcome that could happen.
 
The Moderator had it right...There are the different corners that the people are going to get in. You have the call 911 dont do anything crowd, the I am going to stand up against evil crowd, and the I'm going to wait for my move crowd. There may be a couple more but always seems to be the big three. Many people get upset and think its stupid to bring up the scenario's because your always going to lose, you are going to get sued or whatever. I on the other hand kinda enjoy these topics. It gets me thinking outside the box. Every scenario can have limitless possibilities and people can point out or say things that I may have never thought about and may turn out to be a good option in a real world event. I find myself going thru what-if scenarios while walking thru home depot, target, or whatever type of store. It keeps my mind thinking and hopefully if I am ever in a sticky situation I act safely, confidently and intelegently. Okay off the soap box.

A couple things about this scenario. Most people hear are assuming they have xray vision, and superhuman hearing. Most bathrooms are in the back of the store. They are often not very well kept with noisy ventalation systems. Around here most of the stores have some sort of music playing over the pa systems especially that late at night. So i would venture to say that unless you put your ear to that nasty door before you open it, then when you do open it you just open a small crack to see what going on before you open the door, you are going to walk out like you are leaving. Once you do that you have just changed the dynamics of this whole situation.

This is a good one but a tuff one because at that point you will be more likely to faced with a deadly force situation.

I know some of you will flame me because the OP told us whats going on outside like we know whats going on, but lets be a little realist. What kinda scenario would it be if he said what if you were in a gas station restroom at 2 in the morning.
 
Just a thought...

...from another angle.

I've always thought it an extremely BAD idea for a CCW holder to get involved in any 3rd party situations. You simply can't know what's going on with any certainty.

In this scenario, the "perps" could be undercover cops and the clerk is a suspect in some naughty activity. Unlikely but not impossible.

Call 911, make good observations, and be a good witness for the police, giving them a good description of both BGs. Get the license number, make, model and color of the perps' vehicle. Notice the direction they left. But STAY OUT of the confrontation.
 
Quietly, shut the door, determine the safest, most adventageous position to defend yourself from. If you have cell access, call 911, then wait for help to arrive. Private citizens should not get involved in shooting situations where they are not threatened. In fact, they should not get involved in any situation that does not involve them. You know only what you see, not what the facts are.
 
You guys sure are scared of gas stations with all these gas station robbery stories. The only thing scary at gas stations at 2 AM is the price of gas!

Toys R Us probably gets robbed just as much in the daytime as gas stations do at 2 AM.

I am not saying to drop your situational awarenes but c'mon these late night gas station stories are getting absurd.

Look, I can change the location and time and it is still the same story.
Scenario: You are at a Hello Kitty novelty store late in the afternoon. Your car is parked outside, and you are inside the store use the restroom. It's 2:00 in the afternoon. You begin to step out of the bathroom, and there are two perps in the building. One has a PGO shotgun pointing at the cashier who has his hands raised, and is demanding money, cursing, and yelling. The second perp has a glock and is scanning the inside of the store and outside.

You are armed with the handgun of your choice and an extra mag. You have not competely exited the bathroom yet, and the x-rays are as yet unaware of your presence, although you may have precious few seconds left of surprise on your side. Aside from the cashier and the BGs, you are the only other person in the building. You have only a few seconds to decide your move, if you make a move at all.
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Differences made in italics

So whether you are at a gas station at 2 AM or a Hello Kitty novelty store it is still tactically sound to do nothing.

1. There are two of them and one of you.
2. You are safe in the bathroom.
3. If confronted in the bathroom it will be one on one.
4. The PGO is trained on the clerk an action by you may put the clerk's life in jeopardy.
5. You shoot the guy with the PGO and the guy with the Glock will most likely shoot you.
6. This is about tactics not a moral obligation to save a life at the risk of your own, sometimes you must fall back to advance.
 
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Very rarely does anyone actually get shot over the 70 bucks in the register. Unless I feel this time may be an exception I'm more than content to let them have it than let the lead fly.
 
I am steadfast in doing whatever I can to help someone that is in this situation. I abhor seeing where people refuse to help someone else if the situation arises and only worry about themselves.

However, in this situation retreating and calling the police is about your only option. There are two armed BGs in this situation and the chances of you having enough element of suprise to get them both is slim to none. You're going to do more damage than good in this situation.

Shooting the look out will probably get the clerk dead. Shooting the one on the clerk will probably get you dead via the look out.
 
I would have to agree with oldfool and 357mag. As bad as you may feel about the clerk you are not superman. If you do engage you also have a chance of hitting the clerk...then what..you get sued by his family, go to jail for manslaughter maybe. Nope. I carry to protect myself and my family...no matter how morally challenging it maybe you need to look at the reality of it.
I will say, after 20 yrs as a USMC grunt (no DI or recruiting, all fleet time) it would be very hard to not do anything. Good scenario and lots of good input.
 
I would agree that at that moment, any intervention would be ill advised.

That said, the perp is not going to stand there with a shotgun pointed at the clerk forever. If a good opportunity presented itself and you had a good shot with a manstopping round perhaps something could be done after the gun in not pointed at the clerk

As I usually carry a 38 snubby or a 9mm I am not going to count on dropping the fleeing perp with a 12 gauge. To engage is to potentially get myself and the clerk killed.

It would suck but best to sit on your hands and curse.
 
I would simply ask myself... what is going to increase my odd's of going home to my wife and children. Retreat to the bathroom, stay out of direct line of fire if someone decides to test for occupancy using lead, and be on the ready...

SSN, avoidance is onething but this world does operate 24x7 and sometimes pretty important people who do the types of jobs that require 24x7 coverage need to take a leak from time to time... so no... it cannot always be avoided.
 
I would simply ask myself... what is going to increase my odd's of going home to my wife and children.
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Using that line of thought you should never intervene in any scenario.

I agree with Edmund Burke who said "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing".

This is why Thomas Jefferson said "it is all man's right and responsibility to go about armed"

I opine that if you have a good chance of stopping a violent crime you have the moral obligation to do so.

I would simply ask myself what is the right thing to do, the honorable thing that I have a reasonable chance of success.

Sadly, in this scenario any action would probably make a bad situation worse.
 
Being the hero does not put food on the table, nor does it hold a child when she has had her heart broken by a boy, nor does it replace the feeling of holding your grandchildren for the first time.

I am sorry that I think differently than your hero's do but I do. My moral obligation is to my family. As a firefighter and EMT I give plenty to my fellow man, and if I were a Law Enforcement Officer I would probably act differently in that situation but I am not. And my CCW was given to me to protect me... not others.
 
am sorry that I think differently than your hero's do but I do
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That is certainly your right and I am not saying that you are wrong.

I could not stand by and watch, for illustrations sake, a woman be gang raped or a kid be abducted. I would try to intervene even if it would lower "my odd's of going home to my wife and children". I could not live with myself if I had a reasonable chance of success and didn't try to help.



That said, in the OP's scenario intervening might get the clerk killed.
 
Well the responses have certainly been interesting and varied. I agree with the mod who stated the three camps. A mall ninja would probably move out and engage, and unless he's a fiend at Mozambique drills, he'll get shot. Even if he is a fiend at Mozambique drills, he may still get caught. I think the danger to the clerk is not worth a shootout in the gas station. Thanks all for the thoughts.
 
I really doubt that Toys R Us has as many visits from armed robbers as gas stations. But its true that even Toys R Us is not safe. I used to deliver truckloads to Toys R us, and the back door was always unlocked and open, and the employees were casual about it. Many times I walked through the back door and had to wait 5 minutes to catch the attention of an employee. And I was only there to deliver toys. Someone there for evil purposes could have cased the place, looted into a pickup, or worse, in 5 minutes.
 
I agree that this scenario could just as easily happen in daylight as night. These days robbers don't seem to care about cameras at all. It is also likely that the robbers will have scouted the place and know the layout. They might also be well aware that you went into the restroom.

Its a truly frightening scenario because your chances of getting out alive are slim to none, esp if you were watched going into the restroom, and there is no way to sneak out without crossing the path of the gunmen.

I think I would try to flee on foot if possible out a backdoor, and my plan of action would only be to shoot the lookout if he tailed me and got close enough for a sure hit.

I think one reason why robbers don't often shoot clerks, is because they will rob the place on multiple occasions. If a clerk is killed, the store may not open late anymore, or may go out of business, or may have plainclothes cops and frequently have cops coming around.
 
one reason why robber may not like to kill may be the difference between the death sentence (in some states of course) and robbery sentences... Plus who is the law going to hound harder murders or robbers. Idk what i would do in this situation i would like to think that i would be willing to give my life (in prison) to save anothers but honestly who knows till theyve been there. People can talk to tough or weak or whatever but until your put in this situation how can you say?
 
The awesome course of action would be to hide in the shadows, sneak up on the "perp" and stick your sidearm under his chin and tell him not to move. While you both understand he's overtaken by force and will now compy with your force of will drag him into close proximity of the other "perp" and issue him a forceful and determined warning, that if he doesn't drop his weapon his friends head be splattered all over the window, implying he suffer the same fate. Both parties will comply and you will be named hero of the day.

The reality, draw your sidearm, find a good place to hide/defend yourself and call the cops. Defending someone is always a noble cause and a good thing, but if you try and defy the odds and take on two gunman then chances are you'll be dealing with your family planning yours and the clerks funeral while two criminals get away scott free with some money in their pockets.

J.D. Saliger once said, "The difference between a mature man and an immature man is an immature man will die for a noble cause, a mature man will live humbly for one.". If you're ever in a high stress situation you remember what home and what family you need to go back to.
 
The reality, draw your sidearm, find a good place to hide/defend yourself and call the cops. Defending someone is always a noble cause and a good thing, but if you try and defy the odds and take on two gunman then chances are you'll be dealing with your family planning yours and the clerks funeral while two criminals get away scott free with some money in their pockets.
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Well said.

This type of scenario in any location be it convenient store, department store, anywhere, you have to look at the odds of your actions being successful. You are accountable for every bullet fired from your gun and every act that takes place once you become an active participant....the bad guys not so much unless they are caught.

The chances of drawing firing and stopping two gunmen before either can react and keep all innocent parties involved safe is not good imho. The best course of action I can see is stay concealed and ready to defend yourself/position should things turn sour. It's not the most noble plan but it seems to be the best I can think of to make it home in one piece.
 
I'm with Cornbred, I don't think you would know what was going on until you walked out unless you heard yelling first.

That said, I can see both sides of the fence. If my actions were to endanger the clerks life even further, I would definitely hunker down, possibly try to get a picture of video of the perps or their car and license plate with a phone.

But I am also right there with Guillermo and Edmund Burke. I believe that CCW is not just for my own self defense and that of my family, but for the defense of citizens of my state and country who are in need of help as well. As Guillermo said, I could never stand by and watch someone get hurt if there was even a possibility that I might be able to help, not to be a hero, but because it's the right thing. I have never been in that situation, but I'd like to believe that I would do my best to intervene even if I was not armed as I am a big guy and would make a pretty formidable opponent.

Whatever I did, I would definitely call 911 and if I could explain the situation without being discovered, I would do so, but I would leave the phone on and connected with the dispatcher in my pocket so that regardless of what happened, the police would have a record of what happened.
 
we have gotten off topic but in a good way.

I think that most everyone agrees that in this particular scenario the chances of good coming from intervening are somewhere between slim and none. Hunkering down, calling 911 and being a good witness is the best that we could do.

It is also important to recognize that to some of us there is a fate worse than death. I do not know if I could live with myself if I could have stopped a horrendous crime and didn't try.

I am not Stephen Segal, Chuck Norris or John Wayne. In fact some would argue that I am more analogous to Beavis or Butthead. (ask Old Fuff). I do really hate people being victimized.

This loathing has led me to become a woman's self defense instructor (http://www.rad-systems.com/) and a children's self defense instructor (http://www.radkids.org/).

It is not my suggestion that everyone should be like me and get kicked in the nads teaching women the proper way to do so in case they are attacked. It is important to recognize that some of us just are not wired to stand by while someone is hurt.

It is not machismo or over-exposure to action movies but some crossed wires. Speaking only for me, I am just that way.

And while I carry a sidearm most every day I do so as much for others as I do for my own protection.
 
I don't think you can really calculate what you would do in this situation until you were in it. You can say what you think your course of action would be, but until faced with the reality, no one knows. I say I would not take action, except to preserve my own safety. However, I am human the same as all others. If faced with a slight little teenage girl being abused by some, lets just say, waste of good air type of individuals, I may react differently than I thought. Say, children are involved in the situation, may make a difference. We all like to think we would do what we think is the correct reaction to a situation, whether that is self preservation, or running in like an avenging angel. The guy who says, "By God I would pull my piece and give 'em what for." May actually wet himself, and cower in a corner. Most people who have survived a given dangerous and stressful situation, when asked to explain their actions later, said they just reacted, be it through the influence of training or just their gut instinct. Many heroes will tell you they consider what they did to be foolhardy after the fact.
 
The guy who says, "By God I would pull my piece and give 'em what for." May actually wet himself, and cower in a corner.
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that is absolutely true.

I have been through some relatively hairy stuff (if you consider armed robbery hairy) and I did not perform as well as I would have liked on the first two. I did impress the cops on the third.

The scary thing, after one looks down a gun barrel a few times it gets easier.

The last time I did pretty well.
 
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