Self-defense suggestions for my wife

[Monkeyleg]

A few weeks ago, my wife started a new job working for the company that her sister and husband run. Among her many job duties is showing vacant apartments to prospective tenants.

One of the apartment buildings is in a pretty bad neighborhood, and I worry every time she has to do a showing. Even though her sister pre-qualifies applicants by phone, I worry.

My wife won't carry a gun or a knife; she's said repeatedly that she could not kill another person, even to save her own life.

As much as I'd like to, I can't leave the work I'm doing to accompany her on every showing. On the weekends, yes, but not during the week.

So, any suggestions on means of self-defense for her?

(Moderators: I just noticed I posted this in L&P. Please move it to the appropriate forum. Thanks).

 

[Barbara]

A big Maglite with a Neoprene clip 'n grip. Good for looking in closets, good for whacking people upside the head.

Some unarmed self-defense training. Pass it off as healthy exercise, unless saying that will get you a Maglite upside the head.

 

[sm]

Dick,

You know as well as anyone around here how difficult it is to change people, places and things - basically you can't.

Your wife is going to have to "hit" a bottom and hopefully it will be something that does not involve her getting hurt or worse, or that of someone close to her, before she chooses to take responsiblity for her own safety.

You also know folks bow up, rebel, and turn off others trying to help them, when they do not want help.

My suggestions are :

1. pax's site : http://www.corneredcat.com/
I'd just leave it up and running on the Monitor and not say a darn word about the site being up, or any comments if she does read it - unless she asks you about it.

"Honey, I am a guy, even so Kathy is a well respected member of THR and I use her site to teach me , to use her resources, and I like reading Gunhilda".
This would be an honest reply, as I know you have shared you do read the site.

2. Folks relate to their own kind. Ladies to Ladies, Guys to Guys or folks that have had same surgeries or mom's sharing childbirth stories.

Another lady needs to be "available". I do not mean throw one into the same room as your wife, lock the door and nobody leaves until her mind is changed either.

Actually best if you do not even know the when, where, how your wife is approached by another lady/ladies.

Oh, and if your wife calls to say she is heading out with the girls to visit a range, or martial arts class - try not to yell "yippie" over the phone.


It will work out, just sometimes "our" timing is not the same as "others" timing.

Regards,

Steve

 

[hso]

I'll second the advice to look at Pax's site.

If she can't kill someone to protect herself then would she to keep you from being widowed? If you have children, ask her what it would be like for the kids to have her murdered? How would they grow up? How would they handle it? Would their lives be destroyed? How much does she value their lives when measured against someone so vile that they would murder or rape a stranger?

Would she carry pepper spray? Would she take a class on asp baton use?

 

[MartinBrody]

If you cannot change her mind about carrying a weapon (lethal or non-lethal) I would still give her some pointers.

Tell her you love her and trust her own abilities to keep herself safe. You have done some research and have some simple tips you think might help her.

1)Be vigilant, take an extra moment to be aware of you surroundings, then size them up.

2)If something doesn't "feel right" then you should act to change the situation. She may feel a little silly at times, but she should trust her instincts.

3)Always let someone know where you will be, with who and how long. Give that person instructions with how to act if they don't hear back from you in a predetermined amount of time.

4)Carry a cell phone.

 

[TallPine]

take out a big life insurance policy on her

 

[bg226]

she could not kill another person, even to save her own life.

It says it all right there. I think weapons are not an option.

Research:

- Pepper spray.
- Self-defense classes.

 

[pax]

*sigh*

Hate to say this, but there's no sense in sending her to my site. She's not at the point yet where she would benefit from much that is there.

She might benefit from reading some of the tips on Marc MacYoung's www.nononsenseselfdefense.com site, if she's willing to do it. Marc explores a lot of the non-lethal options that I frankly don't cover well. More important, he discusses some of the necessary precursors to a physical attack, and how to avoid them falling into place around you. He discusses where physical attacks happen, what sorts of things have to happen first in order for the attack to go forward, how to spot the set-up, and some ways to safely convince the bad guy that you'd make a poor victim. If she's willing to consider reading that sort of information, Marc's site is a good, low-risk bet (no money, only a little time invested .. what's she got to lose?)

Other than that, she might be interested in pepper spray, or in a martial arts class as "exercise" -- perhaps you'd join her in the latter?

The last thing you want to do, if she is not willing to risk killing someone even to save her own life, is to equip her with a deadly weapon. That's just a recipe for disaster of one kind or another.

Final note, which I know Monkeyleg doesn't need but other guys too often do need to be told: guys, if you want the freedom to defend yourselves any way you see fit, without your wife/gf being able to veto your choice of self-defense tools, then in fairness you must give your wife/gf the same freedom. This includes the freedom to go unarmed, if that is her choice.

Harsh, but there it is. I'm sorry.

pax

 

[kludge]

she could not kill another person, even to save her own life.

It says it all right there. I think weapons are not an option.

Research:

- Pepper spray.
- Self-defense classes.

Ditto. That's the same advice I give everyone who asks me about a defensive weapon.

Would you (not might or could) kill someone to protect your life or your family's life?

Any answer other than yes, and they should be looking for another means of self preservasion.

 

[neoncowboy]

My wife won't carry a gun or a knife; she's said repeatedly that she could not kill another person, even to save her own life.

That is a symptom of lack of a proper defensive/surviving mindset.

Without a mindset for survival and self-preservation at any cost, there is no tool that will provide for self-defense.

It all starts in the mind, once that's geared up for survival, the rest of this stuff is just accessories.

 

[Monkeyleg]

Pax, thanks for your input.

My wife and I have discussed her attitudes about self-defense at length over many years.

Honestly, I've been surprised by her statements that she would not go to any length--including the possibility of killing someone--in order to defend herself. In the early years of our relationship--the late 1960's and the early 1970's--she was a real street-brawler. She'd take on any woman in a fight, pull hair, scratch eyes, whatever. I think she actually enjoyed it at times.

Deep inside of me, I suspect that she would do anything to fight off an assailant. Hell, she's just about killed me over matters far less significant. (Kidding, but only just so).

The last thing you want to do, if she is not willing to risk killing someone even to save her own life, is to equip her with a deadly weapon. That's just a recipe for disaster of one kind or another.

No, I won't do that. I had that long talk with myself some twenty years ago, and it took some time before I realized that I could shoot to stop and, if the perp died, so be it. I'd been in situations prior that were close to life-threatening, so it wasn't much of a leap.

I'm not comfortable training her in the use of pepper spray, but I think that one of the guys at my favorite gun shop can do so without making her feel uncomfortable.

What worries me most about this arrangement is that all of the aspects of what we on THR call "situational awareness" are out the window:

1. She has a meeting with a couple or an individual about whom she knows nothing.

2. The meeting is to take place in an apartment in one of Milwaukee's bad neighborhoods (not the worst, but not nice).

3. Unless I can take time from my work, she's going to be alone. (Maybe I need to have a "heart to heart" talk with her sister, and insist that any apartment showings are scheduled when my work day is over, so I can accompany my wife).

4. She'll have a cell phone with her. Yep, that's reassuring.

5. Much as her sister tries to screen the applicants by phone, there are some real dirtballs who show up. And I do mean real scum-of-the-earth types.

Last evening my wife came back from an apartment showing. I looked at her and said, "well, I don't see any cuts or bruises, so I guess it went okay, right?"

She took offense. But I wasn't being flippant.

In the part of the city where she does the apartment showings, the cops ride two officers to a squad. In the rest of the city, there's just one officer to a squad.

There's a reason for that.

 

[Barbara]

Personally, I wouldn't take her willingness to die quite so seriously. I imagine if it comes down to it, she'd make a good effort to stay alive. Do what you can to make sure she has the tools to do that when she's ready. Don't get her a gun or something else she won't take with her, but do find ways to allow her to protect herself.

Is she completely opposed to self-defense training or just firearms training?

 

[tellner]

Frankly, I wouldn't recommend Marc's site all that much. Not to mention most of the women I've sent there had unkind things to say about him. There's a not so subtly hidden assumption that men can prevail. Women can only survive. It poisons much of his advice. Yours is much better, Pax.

If you can convince her to try a self defense class AWSDA maintains a good database and referral service. Over the fifteen years we taught self defense we were constantly pleasantly surprised at the truth of the old mystic adage "The body trains the mind". Women who just couldn't hurt|maim|kill|use harsh language when they were sitting around and thinking went through some dramatic changes when they actuall did rather than talked about. When there is a physical reality to hang things on and they learn that they are physically capable of taking control of their environment the doubts and hesitation tend to be replaced by something much more pragmatic. At the very least the body will have a planned practiced response to danger and will react with it in a crisis.

Once again, that's why I am usually very much against teaching weapons first for self defense, especially for women. As long as her safety depends on something external be it a husband, a dog or a gun there's a good chance that she won't be able to make The Decision in any meaningful way. It works the same way with verbal and body language for deterrence. We tried teaching it as technique at the beginning of class with an eye towards working up to the physical material. The only ones who could do it were trained actresses. When we switched things and got them hitting things on the first day the whole "expression, posture, voice" thing was simple. They already knew it from the inside.

 

[Geno]

Seek effective alternates

When my wife first came to the United State she too was mega-anti-gun!

The problem is that many alternates either take years to develope (TaeKwonDo), or are not allowed (Stun Guns). Continue to use persuasive communication and suggests "small caliber gun that likely wounds". Then encourage her to practice, practice, practice. But, one fact remains, if she possess as a deep-deated core value that she can not kill, she may not change.

I guess I am fortunate. My wife now agrees with me! She had to be assualted at gun-point almost 2 years ago before she woke up. She asked me to get my MCPL (CCW). Now, she and I both agree. To save our daughther's life, or eachother's life, no holds are barred. We discuss it frequently, developed strategies and code words. We also review these same so we are ready.

God forbid your wife will have to look at a .40 S&W's muzzle as my wife did. By the way, I do believe in the power of prayer. Serious.

God bless and tell her to be safe,

Doc2005

 

[pax]

Todd ~

Good post. Agree with you in general about body training mind, but I have often seen that same evolution in confident awareness in women as they learned to shoot. With either sport martial arts or target shooting, you can easily learn the physical skills without ever being faced with The Decision. This can even happen for a surprisingly long while when learning defensive shooting or any of the reality-based physical systems, just because the human capacity for fooling oneself is such a large one. I think part of the difference is that The Decision confronts the learner a lot earlier when a gun is involved. For some people that hurdle comes too soon to be surmounted and they quit or squirrel rather than facing it square on. For such folks, learning the hands-on skills first is better if only because they can get that much further along the path before they really realize exactly what it is they have just equipped themselves to do. No matter how you get there, self-defense requires honestly facing The Decision and making it.

Monkeyleg ~

Google up "self defense" and "real estate agents" or "Realtors." There are surprising lot of websites out there dealing with safety for Realtors. I haven't done the homework, but with so many sites to choose from I'm sure one of them must say something that will resonate with you and your wife.

Some random samples I just found:

http://mortgagenewsdaily.com/7262006_Reator_Safety_Tips.asp
http://realguard.com/safetytips.htm

pax

 

[Monkeyleg]

Barbara, thanks for your reply. You and I have exchanged emails on any number of subjects. I think my wife was the topic of at least one of those.

As I mentioned in my initial post, Debbie grew up in a tough neighborhood, and became toughened herself very quickly.

If Debbie reads this post, she's going to unleash Holy Hell on me, but I think that all of this needs to be mentioned in order for others to put her mindset regarding violence in perspective.

Her father was a wife-beater, and she saw unspeakable violence when she was just a young girl.

She also saw her mother stab her father in self-defense.

And, so, she's always tried to shy away from confrontations.

At the same time, though, she's embraced confrontations.

When she was just twelve, the school "bullyette" told Deb to meet her in the alley. And Deb did, and fought like a tiger. (She didn't know until a few years ago that her mother watched the fight, and was waiting to see if Deb was getting hurt too much).

It's not that I don't think that my wife lacks the will to defend herself. Despite her comments, I know her too well. She has the will, even if she denies it. She's attacked members of the Outlaws motorcycle club, sexual-predator bosses and colleagues, and even me (ouch!).

She likes shooting, but doesn't equate shooting with self-defense. She has a real fear of knives (maybe that thing with her mom).

Maybe pepper spray is the best solution. But I just don't trust an aerosol form of a Cajun condiment.

 

[weregunner]

NRA member here.This I hope will be of some use . Go to [email protected]. This will get you to the Refuse to Be a Victim program.This is 6 hour program on training on how to be more self aware and simple steps to not be a crime statistic.No gun or martial arts training.The general public is welcome.Mostly women attend.Older children and spouses are welcome also.My wife and kids have attended and found the information useful.This site should help in finding a location nearest you and go into more detail than I can.Their telephone number will be at the web site.No preaching is done.Just straight forward common sense tips to keep anyone safe.Weapons are a choice and the instructors will verify that. Audience participation is encouraged. Fees for this are nonexistent.Good luck and my prayers go with you.

 

[Monkeyleg]

Google up "self defense" and "real estate agents" or "Realtors." There are surprising lot of websites out there dealing with safety for Realtors. I haven't done the homework, but with so many sites to choose from I'm sure one of them must say something that will resonate with you and your wife.

Thanks, Pax.

Y'know, between you and Barbara, I think I'd probably pay for an armed security guard to escort me if the two of you were showing me an apartment.

 

[tellner]

Pax, that's why I'm not a great fan of sport martial arts for people who want to learn to defend themselves. You can learn to compete, get points, execute techniques flawlessly but still not be able to fight. Except for Thai boxing of course

Agree with you in general about body training mind, but I have often seen that same evolution in confident awareness in women as they learned to shoot. With either sport martial arts or target shooting, you can easily learn the physical skills without ever being faced with The Decision, at least not early on.

Absolutely. They are both roads to the same destination. One will be more easily travelled by one person, a different one by another. My personal preference for starting with physical hitting and wrestling is for pedagogical reasons. The more direct the association between the action and the result the quicker the lesson tends - not always, just tends - to be learned. "He tried to hit me. I hit him. He fell down," is about as basic as it gets. She knows she did it and is physically capable of being personally dangerous. Sometimes the highly precise nature and disconnect between the action and the result in shooting can make it less real at the gut level for the student. "I held the gun, squeezed the trigger. There was a bump, and then there was a hole in a piece of paper thirty feet away." But again, that's just a rough guide. The best approach is the one that works best for the particular student or group of students.

Hmm, that just clarified something in my mind. One of the reasons a lot of people think they wouldn't or shouldn't do violence in self defense is that they don't think they can. It's completely outside their mental bounds. The point of the training is to put it inside them. Or, like my Silat teacher Steve Plinck says, "I can't teach you martial art. The most I can do is teach you to accept martial art."

This can even happen when learning defensive shooting or any of the reality-based physical systems, just because the human capacity for fooling oneself is such a large one. I do agree with you that the truth about The Decision does happen earlier when a gun is involved, sometimes too early. For some people that hurdle comes too soon to be surmounted and they quit rather than facing it. For such folks, learning hands-on skills first is better if only because they can get that much further along the path before they really realize exactly what it is they have just equipped themselves to do. No matter how you get there, though, if you're serious about self-defense, The Decision has to be faced.

Can I get an "Amen" from the congregation?

The hard part is getting the students to the point where they can take that step. Some people work from the outside in, weapons first, then backup to the weapons. Others, prefer to work from the inside out, rely on yourself first, then choose tools to make it easier. Either is valid as long as it gets someone to the point where she is familiar with what's involved, aware of the real choices and confident in her ability to do what she decides. As you said, the human capacity for denial and self deception is staggering. You can only fool yourself, but you can do an amazing job of it. There are all sorts of techniques to move, I hesitate to say manipulate, and accustom students towards the directions they will have to go. None is guaranteed.

At the worst, if they've had good training there's always a decent chance that they'll react with it when they have to. Fear is a wonderful motivator, and the body may well pick up the tools it's been given and shut the chattering monkey up while the Lizard comes out of its cave and takes care of business. It's not ideal, but it beats being dead.

The military has the advantages of total control of recruits in an immersive environment that they can not leave, a complete social environment, thousands of years of experience and the biggest staff of high-powered behavioral scientists in the world. They can turn almost anyone into a professional soldier in less than a year and darned near guarantee that he or she will shoot accurately and without hesitation. We don't have those advantages and just have to get by as best we can.

Another one of those woo-woo mystical Sufi/Yogic/Buddhist things makes a lot more sense. They all say you can make progress from the bottom up or the heart out, never from the head down. It's funny how many of these are very simple and practical, not fluffy senseless at all.

 

[Quinch]

take out a big life insurance policy on her

Do that, and send her to Krav Maga classes.

 

[tellner]

Monkeyleg, I had the picture. Thanks for putting the right frame around it. It makes a lot more sense now. That sort of thing certainly makes it more difficult, but it seems like her basic instincts are all sound. There are teachers out there who have worked with women who have been abused or traumatized. If she's interested in pursuing itshe can accomplish some amazing things.

Doc2005, sport martial arts are the slow boat to self defense. There are good short-term alternatives that give you good self defense skills much faster. The whole "RBSD" - Reality Based Self Defense - movement is for just that sort of training.

 

[pax]

Todd ~

Lots of food for thought in that post. Agree about the potential disconnect in shooting a piece of paper. It's one very solid argument for defensive shooting of human-shaped pieces of paper, and for using instructional language which doesn't allow a lot of denial ("center of mass" or better, "center of the chest" rather than "A zone," for example). For me, a lot of the process gave me nightmares simply because I have a very visual and very active natural imagination. I suspect someone with a less-visual imagination might have a much harder time making the immediate connection; on the other hand, as I said before, I think being smacked in the face with The Decision too early on might veer some people away who might face it without a quiver if they met it a bit further on the road.

Hmm, that just clarified something in my mind. One of the reasons a lot of people think they wouldn't or shouldn't do violence in self defense is that they don't think they can.

Well, yes. If you cannot visualize yourself taking the necessary action, it might be because you think of yourself as weak or ineffectual -- OR -- it might be because you simply have no mental picture of what the necessary action might be and what it might look like.

Although I really grow weary of the whole "well, would you fight for your children?" thing (my own life is worth defending, and always has been, and always would be even if I'd never had offspring!), the one thing that question does do for many people is to allow them to visualize situations wherein they would do something in defense, no matter what, even if they had no clear idea of what that something might be or what it might take to do it. For a lot of people, the question breaks through the mental inability to imagine, and can get them moving toward finding out what defense looks like and how it is accomplished.

Fear is a wonderful motivator, and the body may well pick up the tools it's been given and shut the chattering monkey up while the Lizard comes out of its cave and takes care of business. It's not ideal, but it beats being dead.

Agreed ... I think. I think it would be horrible to have killed a man if one had not first faced The Decision and counted the cost of it. The legal, social, physical, and emotional costs are high enough even if they don't blindside you; I should hate to have consciously decided those costs were too high, and then be faced with paying them anyway. I can well imagine that someone who'd once fought to live might decide not to face the rest of their life on such terms.

But agreed that the body's desire to live is a marvelous thing.

Re the military: at least our students are usually self-selected to want to learn what it is we have to offer. It could be worse!

pax

 

[pax]

Y'know, between you and Barbara, I think I'd probably pay for an armed security guard to escort me if the two of you were showing me an apartment.

Don't be silly. We're not the bad guys ... the bad guys need protection from us.

pax

 

[Monkeyleg]

Todd, I'm willing to guess that I could take 20 years of instruction from you on all of the various forms of martial arts but, yet, when and or if the Godforbidden moment arrives, I couldn't kick the snot out of a fuzzy white bunny.

I've had some memorable moments in my life: the time a John Wayne Gacey type decided I was going to be his boy-toy; the time that a group of disadvantaged "youths" decided they were going to abduct my wife and make her a party girl; the time that a couple of punks decided that they could score points by knocking on my door, and then beating the hell out of me; the time that some no-name street gang decided that I looked like a good target for a robbery; the many times that the Milwaukee Police Department decided that I looked like good pickin's for (rape, while suspect was black male; murder, while suspect did not match my description at all; armed robbery, although suspect description obviously wasn't me), etc.

There's probably 85 year-old members of the Rockettes who can kick their heels higher than I can.

I don't want my wife to depend upon physical skills she's no longer capable of.

I just want her to come out unscathed.

 

[tellner]

The physical skills, well, I shouldn't be giving away The Secrets. But what the hey...

They're just a means to getting your mind to get with the program. Posters here have contributed stories of 89 year old great grandmothers fighting off bigger, stronger, younger attackers. It's not because the defenders were Bruce Lee's great aunts. It's because they were dedicated to coming out the other end in one piece or at least going to Valhalla with a thrall to hold their horse. That's the most important thing training can give you. The rest is just giving you more effective options.

The fact that you're still here and have enough fingers left to type with. Well. Damn. You've been doing something right all these years and have you considered moving somewhere a little less interesting?