Self-Defense Techniques, which one?

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Real Krav Maga is quite good, very simple and deadly stuff used by Mossad type guys that you don't read about. Over time it got more popular and watered down, stupid things like punching people in the face and head kicks became commonly taught.

If you can find a quality instructor you're going to learn about weapons training, multiple opponents, and everything is going to be without MMA rules, which makes it vastly superior to MMA. Again, the trick is finding someone who knows their stuff.
 
Krav Maga

I agree with what is said - that Krav Maga is an effective, efficient system, at least from my contact with it. The problem is, as noted, that it was marketed by NAPMA, the martial arts school marketing/business organization, that featured weekend seminars to get "certified" as an instructor so you could go back an offer Krav Maga at your McDojo, uh, I mean school. :barf:

I also agree with the observation about MMA, but which also applies to boxing, karate, judo and so forth - that they have at least to some degree sport oriented, which fits them into a certain theoretical framework. As noted, I do both koryu (classical) and gendai (modern) Japanese arts, with cross training in boxing and FMA, and have done MMA cross training - it is great stuff. I have worked with some BJJ guys in the Gracie line and it is truly amazing. Still, for real world defense BJJ, or MMA, is not the answer - think multiple opponents or a guy with a folder on a belt clip and you can see a couple of weaknesses.

I guess the real answer is to find a school / instructor that teaches what you want - an efficient program for real world defense. Any sporting based program, no matter how grueling, and even if I am teaching it :neener: is not going to be as good for what I hear you saying you want.

What you really need is someone like Rick Faye, of the MN Kali group, who teaches a wide range of arts, for real world as well as sporting applications. They offer training that is designed for what you are looking for - unfortunately, not in your neighborhood, but there might be someone similar.

http://www.mnkali.com/
 
A good instructor should have a resume including who he studied under, how long he studied, where he studied, military experience, etc. Google the names of his instructors and find out the same information about them. Go back as far as you can. Contact these people as a professional reference. If Krav Maga is what you end up choosing, your search should end with someone who instructed the Isreali soldiers... not just a former soldier. Good luck.
 
Eh, I wrote a bit about how if you cant figure out how to use MMA techniques in the street you've got bigger problems than self defense. But I'm not wasting more type :D Remember one thing against multiple attackers and or weapons, unless your armed don't believe the hype.
 
More On Krav Maga

Richmond is absolutely correct about Krav. It seems that there is a great variation in the quality of training. Here in the US it's not just a self defense system, it's also a brand/franchise, at some schools you'd basically be getting meaner looking Tae Bo. Do your research, personally I'd look for a school where the instructors have serious martial arts back grounds (read: punching, kicking, grappling, general beating the crap out of people styles). You don't want to be learing to fight from an aerobic kick boxing instructor who took a Krav seminar or two.

Krav also takes a lot of stick from TMA/MMA types for it's knife and gun defense training. Naturally the best unarmed defense against a knife or gun is to run like hell. But, a lot of Krav is based on worst case scenarios; multiple attackers, guns, knives, sticks etc. I'd rather have something to fall back on; bad options beat no options any day of the week.

That said, my experience has been very positive. The head instructor at my school was a Krav trainer in the Israeli army and a competitive boxer. The assistant instructors are all no-nonsense. I'm in better shape than I've been in years and am learning a lot. I started thinking I'd be doing 3 or 4 classes a week, I'm up to 6 a week now and would take more if I could. You will have to spend a decent amount of time and effort whatever you do. Unless you grew up brawling, most people do not come by fighting skills natuarally.

Finally, do some sparring. If you are not training with people trying to punch you in the face, you are learing to dance not fight.
 
Personally I'd go with Kick Boxing and Jui Jitsu.

The Jui Jitsu will give you some ground skills and with the Kick Boxing you'll eventually progress into actual fighting with your hands, elbows, feet and knees. With many of the other martial arts, you're just lightly sparring without actually doing much hitting or getting hit. How are you going to do okay in a fight if you haven't taken a single full power punch or kick?

I've done some Kick Boxing, but I haven't taken the Jui Jistsu yet.

I went to a reputable Jui Jistsu school awhile back and I sat in on a class and it seemed pretty real world to me. They were actually using techniques that had a chance in hell of working in a street fight, which is the only thing I'd be concerned with any way. I'm not going to be taking a martial art for the history behind it, to discover my spiritual side or to spar at low speed, I learn and study it to become better so that if I'm attacked, I can use it to defend myself.

Those would be my choices anyway.
 
Your instructor is far more important than the style you practice

So like has been mentioned before, make sure your instructor is actually accredited AND THAT YOU LIKE THEM!

We can argue which system is the best till we are blue in the face - but a bad instructor teaching the "most effective" system will produce bad students.
 
Browning,

You said "I'm not going to be taking a martial art...to spar at low speed", it seems to me that one generally does things slow and then moves to faster speeds as skill increases, be it speaking, writing, driving, etc.
 
I don't recommend Brazilian jujitsu or MMA type fighting or Tae Kwon Do or Krav Maga.

They are fine for the most part, however BJJ will have you focus totally on submitting one "hostile". Great, except what if there are 3? Do you think the other two will sit around while you are grappeling with one of them??? Nope..

Krav Maga is to "in" right now to rely on it being taught fairly. Tae Kwon Do has been totally co-opted by Olympic and sporting groups.

Anything that ends in DO is not to be trusted as a combat art. Do, meaning way is often signifying that it is a sporting event, like Judo. Nothing wrong with the art, but let's be serious. I still like Judo as it has fallen out of vogue, so there are exceptions to every rule, but you get the idea.


I recommend Karate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_karate_styles) check the link for styles. One of them might be taught in your area and might be something that can give you a little back ground weapons training too.

Kung Fu is also good - I have only limited experience with it. Mostly I have studied the japanese forms of Martial Arts.


The problem is finding the right school. You can learn something even at McDojo, but you need to put a little effort into finding a good teacher, and then sticking with it until you have reached Black Belt.

One easy way is to check the school is to see if they have any kid instructors. Believe it or not, I have seen Dojo's where they have 11 year old black belts teaching class. That is just a joke.
 
This thread reminds me of why I just shut up and train anymore. Too many people have what I would consider wildly optimistic ideas on what actually happens in a real scrap. Good luck followers of Leibniz!
 
Mr. Flory I agree. They are short violent encounters. Understanding the body positioning will tell you their intent. Mace, guns, flashlights, all will take fighting into a different system. Carry weapons. ( I like Cane Masters Black Belt system) A flashlight in low light conditions are a godsend. You don't have to take months/years to defend yourself.

Jim
 
if time is an issue, then i'll say again that SE asian martial arts are a viable option. comabt techniques like escrima are designed to be taught in the minimal amount of time, to achieve maximum effect. there are no real forms or kata, just real time drills, with sticks, and for advanced students, knives.
 
"Do, meaning way is often signifying that it is a sporting event, like Judo. Nothing wrong with the art, but let's be serious. I still like Judo as it has fallen out of vogue, so there are exceptions to every rule, but you get the idea."

and does this make the techniques any less effective?? An uchi-mata is an uchi-mata be it on a mat or concrete. Your still getting thrown HARD. Same with other combat "sports". Effective is effective IMO. Its all about application.
 
I will say this agin, there is NO one stop shop when it comes down to anytime of martial art or combative training.

While though I would recomend an MMA type corriculum even if its not at one place. You can still learn the highly effctive arts of thai-boxing,{ more commenly reffered to as Muay Thai kickboxing} western boxing, BrazilianJiuJitsu{or BJJ for short} and Judo all seperatley at your own pace and then put the pices together your self as you see fit and as works for you.

I wouldnt myself suggest a karate or kung fu or even a krav maga scool{as I have never seen it in action and no little to nothing about it} as these arts have become VERY watered down and can be lets just say less than effective and teach a false sense of security to there practioners.
And the simple fact of the cult like mentality of many of the prationers.

You need to be sparring hard and going live with a resesting oppenent IMO to really benifit from your training and most if not almost all of the suggested arts{kung fu, karate,dont know much about krav maga so I will reserve judement but I have heard some things that were less than positive at times} dont have much of that.

Like I said, your versatilaty your NUMBER 1 advantage.
You can add all the real world scenarios and alter your training as you see fit when you become proficent as once agin you fight how you train and vice versa. I can think of COUNTLESS ways to add realism and Like I said there is no end all too this. Its just another tool in the box, what works for you might not work as well for others and the other way around.

AGIN I would go with martial arts with a proven track record such Thai-boxing, western-boxing, BJJ, Judo, or a good MMA school.

"They are fine for the most part, however BJJ will have you focus totally on submitting one "hostile". Great, except what if there are 3? Do you think the other two will sit around while you are grappeling with one of them??? Nope.."

You seem to no little about BJJ. Submission are only a part of BJJ. There is a phrase that goes "position before submission" in BJJ. IMO the practical things you learn in a submission wrestling style such as BJJ is proper positioning and escapes.

"Great, except what if there are 3? Do you think the other two will sit around while you are grappeling with one of them"

Ever fought more than one person intent on hurting you?? Guess what, there is a REAL good chance of it hitting the deck unless you have space to move and have the skills to hurt them on the feet and have BTDT before. So while you are trying to throw some fancy karate kick or punch you get gang tackled and taken to the ground and now your having a boot party in your honor.

Gee I bet you wished you knew a bit about groundfighting and had the skills to get back to your feet and get someone off of you quickly and effectively.

Ever been in a fight in a crowded enviroment?? I have, one of the most effective and disheartining things you can do is to throw or slam someone on the ground and disengage from them and engage the next target as it comes/as you see it.

if you have more than one person trying to hurt you, or someone armed and your not, your already in a world of danger no matter what you know. the most important factor is going to be your will to win and survive at all cost.
 
"They are short violent encounters."

while I would usally agree with this thats not always true. One of the most violent encounters ive had in my short life{it was a true fight or be hurt/have someone you care about be badly hurt type of situation} went on for a LONG time.
 
Good Old Gottfried

Good luck followers of Leibniz!

At first glance I thought you were making a mistake about the name of the founder of Krav Maga, Lichtenfeld. Then I realized the reference to good old Gottfried Leibiz - touche!

I just want to go on record that I am the follower of another gentleman, an Irishman named - Mr. Murphy. :rolleyes:
 
"I just want to go on record that I am the follower of another gentleman, an Iishman named - Mr. Murphy."

hehehehehe, one of these days im going to run into that guy and kick him in the nuts for all the pain and suffering he has caused me.
 
Jim-
Mr. Flory I agree. They are short violent encounters. Understanding the body positioning will tell you their intent. Mace, guns, flashlights, all will take fighting into a different system. Carry weapons. ( I like Cane Masters Black Belt system) A flashlight in low light conditions are a godsend. You don't have to take months/years to defend yourself.

Jim

Jim, when you mention weapons, I think the hardest thing isn't learning how to handle yourself just empty handed, it is bridging the gap between weapons and dealing with an assailant that doesn't announce his armament beforehand.

theken206-
and does this make the techniques any less effective?? An uchi-mata is an uchi-mata be it on a mat or concrete. Your still getting thrown HARD. Same with other combat "sports". Effective is effective IMO. Its all about application.

Exactly. I know quite a few guys that could smash someone with an uchi-mata no matter how hard you try to resist them. Same goes for o-soto and a bunch of other Judo techniques...

Richmond-
At first glance I thought you were making a mistake about the name of the founder of Krav Maga, Lichtenfeld. Then I realized the reference to good old Gottfried Leibiz - touche!

I just want to go on record that I am the follower of another gentleman, an Irishman named - Mr. Murphy.

;) Me too brother!

Krav Maga People-
How often do you guys fight in Krav class?
 
I don't disagree fellows. The hardest fight (for real):D I ever had went the distance. I just happened to be in the best shape of my life and skilled enough to eventially choke him out. While he beat me up an ally wall for about 75 ft. So I know what you guys are talking about. When I use the term weapons It is a very broad term. You do not have to bring a weapon with you to have one. Bars? Pool table is the first place I look for. Self defense is a systems aproach in my opinion What has happened with me is I became pretty good at a few techniques in many disiplines. But it is nothing compared to knowing how to hit someone with a pool cue. Those skills are the fastest way to self defense. Then you can pace yourself for the other disiplines you take. I did it just the opposite.:)


Jim
 
some more random thoughts

Why don't we come at this from the other direction - what criteria do we set for what the desired training will accomplish?

Here is what you may have to deal with in the real world:
open hand – striking and grappling
Impact Weapons
Edged Weapons
and
Pistols-up close

A BG can use anyone of those – and often if things go physical you will have to deal with transitions in a fast moving environment. Even if you are armed, you may start with your open hands. You definitely need the skill to get your weapon out and be able to use it after you are engaged.

To complement basic personal safety/defense and to complement CCW, I think your training should:

Emphasize the study of pre-assault indicators and how to avoid being selected as a victim

integrate methods of deployment for your weapons

utilize realistic defenses to realistic attacks, the type that are likely to occur

utilize practice against a resisting partner who is not “playing along”

doesn't assume that people will always play in your best skill set.

My thoughts about most martial arts schools:

Just because an organization has the words "self defense" in their advertising doesn't mean they are providing either reliable information about themselves or training that will make you competent at defending yourself.
· They are selling you something – the idea of a competent physical answer to interpersonal violence. To support this, many schools focus on only the physical piece, building the belief that the best response to violence is a physical response rather than awareness, prediction and avoidance.
· The techniques taught are both untested and unreliable against what you are likely to encounter – most importantly, how criminals and predators really operate.
· The training typically plays to preconceived ideas, unfounded assumptions about how violence actually happens in the real world, and how things happen on TV and in the movies.
· Most fail to consider what happens when the violence is real: adrenal stress and the ingrained moral/ethical inhibitions against violence (see Grossman).
 
Mr. Flory

Krav Maga People-
How often do you guys fight in Krav class?


While I am not a Krav guy and will not presume anything about their classes I have to wonder about the authenticity of MMA "fights". The overwhelming majority of MMA stuff and even boxing is essentially 2 guys trying not to loose, always trying to keep enough distance not to get hit yet hopefully they might be able to sneak one in and "win". Real fights don't go down like that, the person trying to rip your head off because he walked in on you and his girlfriend does not care if you hit him or how bad he gets messed up in the process, not several minutes of the common back and forth with nothing really done. Real fights often consist of more than one person, trying the Hoyce Gracie bit of holding them on the ground for 10 minutes while heel kicking their back will only get one knifed or stomped in short order.

Perhaps the biggest difference between them is that in a MMA duel both guys know that they're going to get it on: real fights generally start with some type of antagonism beforehand but there is plenty of that which people encounter day to day that never materializes into physical conflicts, so the situation at hand of very different from the one often trained for. The opponent usually had full intent and commitment behind their moves, and you're bring attacked when you're in a less than optimal position. It's one thing to hit a bag or pad when you're optimally aligned but how much practice has gone into being able to move in weird and unorthodox positions and still have a lot of power in those blows? The consensual duel and unconsented attack means very different things both physically and psychologically.

I think the hardest thing isn't learning how to handle yourself just empty handed, it is bridging the gap between weapons and dealing with an assailant that doesn't announce his armament beforehand

I agree, but do MMA classes train scenarios where one deals with an opponent trying to draw their knife or other weapon? What about just pattern recognition of how a guys is going to move and stand differently if has a piece on him? How one can best situate oneself in a restaurant, theater, or bar if one has to deal unfriendlies or if there is a fire and one needs to get the hell out ASAP? Real self-protection is the stuff that's not glamorous: how many people take classes on how to verbally de-escalate potentially violent situations, or about learning about how a rapist might con his way into an apartment building, or how a guy might try to get your attention so his buddy can hit you from behind?

Everyone wants to throw on some gloves and spar because it makes them feel tough. People love to play with blades because they feel badass but how many are any good at actually drawing one they carry, if they even carry their knives at all? The same can be said for shooting. Unfortunately the overwhelming majority of the "self-defense" schools out there are pitifully inadequate in terms of actually preparing someone to deal with real world situations but the sad truth is that if a school actually did just that they'd probably go out of business quicker than a gay bar in Salt Lake City.
 
Krav Maga People-
How often do you guys fight in Krav class?

It all depends how many FIGHT classes you take. Generally Krav schools seem to have a mix of Krav technique classes, bag or other conditioning classes and sparring. A great deal of time striking and kicking techiques are practiced full force using pads. At my school people move into sparring when the instructors feel they have the basics down well enough to not just be flailing around. However, sparring is not required. Though I can't think of any advanced students who don't spar regularly. I think people who don't have the drive to test what they know kind of drift away after the basics are mastered.
 
Glockler-

While I am not a Krav guy and will not presume anything about their classes I have to wonder about the authenticity of MMA "fights". The overwhelming majority of MMA stuff and even boxing is essentially 2 guys trying not to loose, always trying to keep enough distance not to get hit yet hopefully they might be able to sneak one in and "win". Real fights don't go down like that, the person trying to rip your head off because he walked in on you and his girlfriend does not care if you hit him or how bad he gets messed up in the process, not several minutes of the common back and forth with nothing really done. Real fights often consist of more than one person, trying the Hoyce Gracie bit of holding them on the ground for 10 minutes while heel kicking their back will only get one knifed or stomped in short order.

Clearly you haven't seen enough MMA bouts. MMA has evolved to the point where you never see the 30 minute groundfighting chess matches of yore. Check out this Fedor Emelianenko highlight vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zq2NPP2YUPA

Perhaps the biggest difference between them is that in a MMA duel both guys know that they're going to get it on: real fights generally start with some type of antagonism beforehand but there is plenty of that which people encounter day to day that never materializes into physical conflicts, so the situation at hand of very different from the one often trained for. The opponent usually had full intent and commitment behind their moves, and you're bring attacked when you're in a less than optimal position. It's one thing to hit a bag or pad when you're optimally aligned but how much practice has gone into being able to move in weird and unorthodox positions and still have a lot of power in those blows? The consensual duel and unconsented attack means very different things both physically and psychologically.

I guess I don't get this "real fights on the street" mentality. I don't really think the difference is so vast mentally. Ask anyone who has done a simunitions course if they had tunnel vision, adrenaline rush, etc. And you practice NOT moving in weird and unorthodox positions. Part of being an athlete is to be able to recover your balance naturally and quickly.

I agree, but do MMA classes train scenarios where one deals with an opponent trying to draw their knife or other weapon? What about just pattern recognition of how a guys is going to move and stand differently if has a piece on him? How one can best situate oneself in a restaurant, theater, or bar if one has to deal unfriendlies or if there is a fire and one needs to get the hell out ASAP? Real self-protection is the stuff that's not glamorous: how many people take classes on how to verbally de-escalate potentially violent situations, or about learning about how a rapist might con his way into an apartment building, or how a guy might try to get your attention so his buddy can hit you from behind?

MMA techniques are applicable. For example, the often quoted "What if you grapple with someone that pulls a knife?" Well, I hope my awareness is such that if I see his arm drop to a pocket or waistband on the ground, I'll immediate break his shoulder in a kimura. And I agree about verbal descalation and awareness, after not being there, it is the most effective technique.

Everyone wants to throw on some gloves and spar because it makes them feel tough. People love to play with blades because they feel badass but how many are any good at actually drawing one they carry, if they even carry their knives at all? The same can be said for shooting. Unfortunately the overwhelming majority of the "self-defense" schools out there are pitifully inadequate in terms of actually preparing someone to deal with real world situations but the sad truth is that if a school actually did just that they'd probably go out of business quicker than a gay bar in Salt Lake City.

Very true. But there are a few good places out there to learn the right way.
 
Let's go back to the OP and consider that this is the situation that MOST people find themselves in. That means limited time, motivation, or physicality. Take a step back and remember that self-defense is about defense of life... so you must have one. For MOST people, they don't want to slave away in a gym or dojo 24/7... just so they can slave away in a gym or dojo! If that's your passion in life, fine, but MOST people aren't going to find that kind of life meaningful.

We have girlfriends, wives, family, friends, hobbies, responsibilities, needs, etc. that make up life. Time is precious. Motivation in the purely self-defense arena is driven by need. The likelihood of getting into an unavoidable H2H is low for MOST people. Finally, physicality is determined by age, sex, size, genes, and lifestyle more than effort. High-end MMAers have a lot of effort (read:time + motivation, the latter born of sport considerations more than defensive ones) but there's no question that most of them are natural athletes with advantages in age, sex, and size (young man's game where you pick a weight class).

Let's look at the OP again...

I'm looking to get the basics for my fiancee and myself . ... I'm not interested in becoming a martial arts super star, just trying to get the basics down and then make a better choice about what, if any, specific art to pursue after the basics.
A very rational approach. Note that we have to consider his fiancée (sex) and their time/motivation (basics).

Let's say your motivation is high for a reasonable reason- you live in a high crime area. Let's say you train 6 hours a week (2 hours during the week, half a day on Sat) because you want to get up to speed quickly (this is because of "clear and present" danger, after all) but that's the best you can do without starting to make serious lifestyle sacrifices (neglecting rest, family, etc). This also does not include normal conditioning time which you should be doing anyways regardless of martial arts. Being extremely generous, that means you train about 300 hours in a year (2 weeks off for vacations or injuries, 50 weeks a year x 6 hours a week).

You're now fairly trained in a highly specialized/pretty specific defensive application... and yet, as we've seen from the last 3 UFC upsets, you could still go down for all your training. A Sunday punch, Mr. Murphy, or Karma could all strike. What else could you have done with that time? Presuming you have all this time and money to train, I'm going to assume a certain income level. So you could've worked overtime or a second job during those 300 hours (at, say, $30/hr)... subtracting gear and gym costs, you're easily pulling an extra $10,000 a year (plus career development that translates into more dough down the road). If we're using the OP, that includes his fiancée, which could mean $20,000 total. If you're in a high-risk environment, that suggests urban, and $20K goes a long ways towards moving you just enough so that your risk profile changes completely. Not to mention, money and hard work are versatile life-defense tools.

[More probably, one's risk profile doesn't start out that high to begin with. And a compromise is made, as it always is, to put some time and money into training for the gravest extremes.]

I fear that "MMA [or any style] as the best self-defense" is a bit of an escapist fantasy to justify a beloved recreational activity. MMA may very well be the best for a street-fight, but is it your best investment of time/energy taking into account a bigger picture of self-defense? I honestly don't think so and fear people who jump to "MMA as a one-size-fits-all answer" are spreading a false gospel. People seeking basics and a H2H self-defense "toolbox" should look for curriculum developed with that in mind instead of trying to piece together the "machine-shop" exhibited by highly specialized paid athletes on programs like Ultimate Fighter.

"But you won't be prepared for this or that!"

We all draw lines in terms of costs vs. returns, time vs. efficacy, risk vs. reward. Touting MMA as THE solution is like saying everyone's CCW should be a G18 w/ 2 33rnd reloads- no ifs, ands, or buts about it... or that everyone should attend Sniper School if they want to deer hunt. We don't wear bodyarmor 24/7, drive tanks, or test our every meal for poison. Living in the tyranny of unwarranted fear is arguably worse than being unprepared in some cases.

Again, I'm not questioning the efficacy of MMA in a street fight. Nor am I saying, "Don't train." If you get kick out of it, by all means! But I'm saying the vast majority of us would do well to know some basics and practice those to perfection rather than investing our lives into mastering H2H combat. I don't question the value of some H2H training as a means to get to situations or tools where you can multiply your advantage. Remember, we're talking about potential differences in weight class, sex, tools, age, or numbers... taking time to master something like gun skills, which will degrade much less with age, seems a more effective investment if any is to be made.
 
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