Selling a shotgun to someone in my state

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jpatterson

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Hey all, I am just unsure about the SOP's of selling firearms face to face. Should I print up a bill of sale or something? As long as he shows me some ID that says he's above 18, this is okay right?
I live in KS.
 
Hey all, I am just unsure about the SOP's of selling firearms face to face. Should I print up a bill of sale or something? As long as he shows me some ID that says he's above 18, this is okay right?
I live in KS.
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Sounds cool to me.
Just make absolutely sure he's a Kansas resident and 18 or +.
 
I believe as long as he is a resident of your state, and you don't know he is disallowed from owning firearms, you can keep as much or as little (or no) paperwork as you want.
 
Check the laws of your state to see what needs to be done if anything.

When I sell a firearm to somebody, I ask for picture ID. Something like a driver's license that will have a birth date on it. I wont accept things like a company ID badge used to open security doors.

I will write down the sellers name, address, and DOB from that document along with the firearm s/n and brief description. I don't do anytrhing like a formal written "bill of sale" but I do keep the basic info locked up in my safe. If the seller asks for a bill of sale. then I happily will create one for him.

If the seller balks at providing his ID information (or I think the guy is shady), the sale is off. None of my firearms are in any need of being sold, so if I do decide to sell any of them, I can always wait until someone else comes along.
 
Okay, well I will probably write up a bill of sale just for my records anyway, but I don't think its 21 to get a PGO. My 870 isn't PGO anyway, but anyone can buy a regular 870 and throw on a PG on it.

I will also make sure to check his ID. Thanks for all the responses!
 
Yep pistol grip only = 21

The mall in Utah that was blasted up, dealer sold the guy a pistol grip shotgun, the guy was under 21..

Can't remember the outcome...

Maybe someone from FBMG remembers...
 
Do you then have to be 21 to buy a pistol grip for a shotgun? I have never heard any such regulation at least not in WA or ID.
 
Yes.Mr. Willington is correct.

http://www.bradycenter.org/xshare/pdf/lap/cases/Tuft_summary.pdf
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Brady Center Takes Utah Dealer to Court for Selling Pistol Grip
Shotgun to 18 Year Old Mass Shooter
Attorneys with the Brady Center Legal Action Project are representing Carolyn Tuft, who was
shot, and whose 15 year old daughter was killed, in a mass shooting at a popular shopping mall
in Salt Lake City, Utah.
On February 12, 2007, at around 6:40 p.m., an 18-year-old Bosnian, Sulejman Talovic, stepped
out of his car in the parking terrace of Trolley Square, a popular shopping mall and tourist
destination in Salt Lake City, Utah. He was armed with a Mossberg 12-gauge pump action
shotgun with a pistol grip, a Smith & Wesson .30 Special handgun, a backpack full of
ammunition, and a bandolier of shotgun shells around his waist. He immediately used his
arsenal to turn the mall into a war zone. In the parking terrace, he shot and killed Jeffrey Walker,
52, wounded Walker’s 16 year old son, A.J. Then Talovic walked into the mall where he turned
his shotgun on Shawn Munns, 34, then killed Vanessa Quinn, 29. While terrified shoppers and
employees ducked for cover, Talovic fired his shotgun into stores and onto balconies. He
entered a card shop, where he shot Carolyn Tuft, 44; Tuft’s 15 year old daughter, Kirsten
Hinckley; Stacy Hanson, 50; Brad Frantz, 24; and Teresa Ellis, 29. Talovic left the store to
reload in the mall’s main hallway, then returned to again shoot Tuft, Hinckley, and Ellis.
Hinckley, Ellis, and Frantz were killed. After leaving the store he shot at an off-duty police
officer, Ken Hammond, who was on the second floor balcony, then fired at other people on the
second floor. Police officers traded fire with Talovic inside Pottery Barn Kids, until he was
finally killed. In less than 10 minutes, five people were killed, and four were wounded by
Talovic. All but one victim was killed with the pistol-grip shotgun.
The lawsuit brought by Tuft contends that the dealer is liable for the shooting of herself and her
daughter because the shotgun should never have been sold to Talovic. Federal law prohibits the
sale of pistol-grip shotguns to persons under 21, yet a licensed federal firearms dealer,
Sportsman’s Fast Cash Pawn in West Valley City, Utah, sold the gun to Talovic when he was 18.
There is good reason for the law. Pistol grip shotguns have an egregious reputation among law
enforcement. As Seattle Police Chief Gil Kerlikowske has said, it is “a weapon not designed for
hunting purposes but for hunting people.”
Brady Center attorneys Jonathan Lowy and Daniel Vice are co-counsel in the case with Salt
Lake City attorney, Mark Williams, of the law firm of Jones Waldo.
Click to expand...
 
I'm sorry, but I am dubious of using the Brady Bunch as a citation. Does anyone have a citation of the alleged Federal law that prohibits selling a pistol grip shotgun to someone under 21?
 
I'm sorry, but I am dubious of using the Brady Bunch as a citation. Does anyone have a citation of the alleged Federal law that prohibits selling a pistol grip shotgun to someone under 21?
Click to expand...

Even a blind squirrel finds a acorn once in a while including the deluded Brady's.
Don't be sorry,be happy!:cool:

Also, it is odd that the only other reference I can find is the same as Queltor's FFL Newsletter, 1998.
Nothing in ATF FAQ or entire site,nothing at the NRA-ILA,nothing from Feds anywhere.Still searching.
Very weird.
 
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http://www.atf.gov/firearms/newsletter/ffl0898.pdf

"AGE RESTRICTION REMINDER
Licensees are reminded that certain commercially produced “shotguns” do not fall within the definition of shotgun under the GCA. Firearms such as the Mossberg Model 500 Camper, Persuader 500 and all other makes and models, which come equipped with a pistol grip in place of the butt stock, are not shotguns under the GCA. Therefore, they cannot be sold or delivered by a licensee to any person less than 21 years of age."

I would be fascinated to learn just what they are classified as if they are not "shotguns".
 
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That's exactly right. They are handguns or pistols, which takes them into a whole different category under federal law.

18 U.S.C. 921 (a) (5) defines a shotgun (in part) as a weapon "intended to be fired from the shoulder." There's more to the definition, but that's enough for us.

18 U.S.C. (a) (29) defines a handgun as "a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand."
 
I believe as long as he is a resident of your state, and you don't know he is disallowed from owning firearms, you can keep as much or as little (or no) paperwork as you want.
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That's true from a Federal law perspective, but each state may impose additional requirements on the transfer of firearms. I live in TX and they do not, but other states (Massachusetts, for example) require ID cards and dealers-as-middlemen and other such silliness. It is always prudent to always ask and answer these sorts of questions from the perspective of the specific jurisdiction in play.

As best I can tell, Kansas does not have any form of licensing or restriction on private transfers of firearms. In that case, simply taking reasonable precautions to ensure that the buyer is legally allowed to do so (i.e. is not a prohibited person by age or other disqualification) is all that is demanded of a seller.

Some folks advocate keeping bills-of-sale for future records, and some believe the exact opposite is best. How you deal with that is up to you. I feel no compulsion to keep records for firearms I've sold, certainly no more so than I do for the other durable goods that I sell.
 
That's exactly right. They are handguns or pistols, which takes them into a whole different category under federal law.

18 U.S.C. 921 (a) (5) defines a shotgun (in part) as a weapon "intended to be fired from the shoulder." There's more to the definition, but that's enough for us.

18 U.S.C. (a) (29) defines a handgun as "a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand."
Click to expand...

A pistol grip shotgun certainly isn't intended to be fired from the shoulder, so I guess it's not a "shotgun".

OTOH, I invite anyone who actually believes that a pistol gripped 12 gauge "is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand" to try doing so.

Bottom line: Don't sell a pistol gripped shotgun to anyone under 21.
 
It's not illegal for a FTF sale to 18-20 year olds.

Ok, now wait just a dag gone minute here. Why all this talk about selling a pistol grip shotgun to someone under 21 years of age in a PRIVATE sale? Show me where, in a FTF sale between Kansas residents that would be illegal?

KS Statutes:
21-4203
Chapter 21.--CRIMES AND PUNISHMENTS
PART II.--PROHIBITED CONDUCT
Article 42.--CRIMES AGAINST THE PUBLIC SAFETY
21-4203. Criminal disposal of firearms. (a) Criminal disposal of firearms is knowingly:

(1) Selling, giving or otherwise transferring any firearm with a barrel less than 12 inches long to any person under 18 years of age;

Notice what Natman posted:
"AGE RESTRICTION REMINDER
Licensees are reminded that certain commercially produced “shotguns” do not fall within the definition of shotgun under the GCA. Firearms such as the Mossberg Model 500 Camper, Persuader 500 and all other makes and models, which come equipped with a pistol grip in place of the butt stock, are not shotguns under the GCA. Therefore, they cannot be sold or delivered by a licensee to any person less than 21 years of age."
Click to expand...

Bottom line: Don't sell a pistol gripped shotgun to anyone under 21.
Click to expand...

Why not?

Okay, well I will probably write up a bill of sale just for my records anyway, but I don't think its 21 to get a PGO.
Click to expand...

jpatterson, you are correct on this one, that restriction only applies to FFLs, not to private sales in Kansas.
 
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