Semi wad / Full wadcutters as a ccw round?

[9mmepiphany]

For those of us old enough to remember when 158gr ball ammo was the standard LE issued round, the SWC was a superior choice as the flat nose transferred more energy and the sharp shoulder of the first driving band would cut a cleaner hole to allow increased blood lost. This is what make the SWC a very good hunting round when cast hard and driven fast...a lot of penetration.

The reversed Hollow Base Wad Cutter (HBWC) was an early attempt at increasing stopping power of the .38spl out of the 1 7/8" barrels of the J-frame snubbies. They have a much better track record than either the Ball or SWC loadings as they do transfer more energy. The problem was the they large opening and rearward weight bias cause the bullet to become unstable at longer ranges. Plus they were a bit slow to reload using speedloaders...you had to be very accurate in alignment

The ultimate solution for this was the Hydra-Shok offerings, which added a post to the center of the hollow point. The post helped shift the COB forward for better accuracy and it's outward tapering base directed pressure outward to assist in the cavity peeling back for a larger final diameter...they don't usually exit the body. When the company went out of business, the design was purchased by Federal.

The PMC Ultramag was also a very interesting design with a light bullet, high velocity and light recoil. It was based of the concept to the Ring (Tubular) Airfoil to extend range and accuracy...Dyson currently uses the concept on their room fans

 

[NMGonzo]

there are plenty choices for carry ... why that one in particular?

 

[Old Fuff]

I dance to a different drummer, and often carry 148 grain mid-range wadcutters in my Taurus 85 LW or S&W J-frame snubbies. During times past I also pocket carried a .38 Colt Police Positive modified along the lines of a “Fitz Special.” The short .38 S&W cartridges loaded with the same wadcutter bullet worked fine.

I doubt that this will go over with some, but I don’t to the tactical generation.

 

[Lovesbeer99]

Its my understanding that most hollow points were designed for 38's with 4 inch barrels or longer. Unless you get specific rounds designed for short barrels the standard hollow points shot from a 2" barrel will not produce enough velocity to expand. My understanding is that unless you get Buffalo bores or something similar you should stick with semi wadcutters out of a 2" barrel.


I'd love to see actual tests with semi wadcutters but I can't find any.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Its my understanding that most hollow points were designed for 38's with 4 inch barrels or longer. Unless you get specific rounds designed for short barrels the standard hollow points shot from a 2" barrel will not produce enough velocity to expand.

My understanding is that unless you get Buffalo bores or something similar you should stick with semi wadcutters out of a 2" barrel.

Your first understanding {DarkRed} is very close, your second {Blue}is a bit further from accurate.

I know one loading that was commonly used in the snubbies, ofter referred to as the FBI Load consisting of a 158gr soft lead SWCHP loaded to +p pressures...

...and 2 loadings that are designed specifically for the 1 7/8" barrel of the S&W J-frame.

1. S&W offered a 125gr HP standard pressure load in their Nyclad line called the Chief's Special. The bullet was soft lead (to insure expansion) clad in nylon (to withstand deformation in the barrel and reduce lead in the air). This round produced expansion similar to the FBI load.

2. CCI/Speer produced a 135gr JHP +P loading specifically for a large LE department's issued J-frames. Reliable expansion and better control in the small guns than the 158gr loading

Both of these loads are a better choice than and SWC. The full WC is actually very good for close in work

 

[twoblink]

I definitely think the 2" barrel is a big consideration. If I was carrying my 5" GP100, then I'd just do a jacketed hollowpoint and be done with it. I'm not convinced that 2" is going to give reliable expansion on the HP's.

And as far as a full wad; cuttin' a hole through the heart doesn't sound too bad; assuming I get the bullet through the heart...

 

[DBR]

Here: http://www.brassfetcher.com/38wadcutter.html

Works for me in my 12oz S&W 342 Airweight "always gun".

 

[woad_yurt]

Wadcutters for .38 SPL....

There's a certain minimum velocity required for reliable hollowpoint expansion and .38 SPL is just too borderline. Unexpanded hollowpoints act like round-nosed bullets; they slip between and separate muscle tissue, which then has a tendency to close back up. The wadcutters make a hole the same way a paper punch does; they punch out the core, making for a lot more blood loss. I'd rather have the guaranteed cannula of the wadcutter than the mere possibility of a properly expanded hollowpoint.

I load 148 gr HBWCs with 4 grains of W321 or HP 38 for both practice and defense. It has plenty of oomph (it's just this side of a +P round) and is also very user friendly. Out of a 4" K-frame, it'll get 820 fps, which gives it a good 220 ft-lbs, way better than any store-bought target wadcutter loads.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

the SWC was a superior choice as the flat nose transferred more energy and the sharp shoulder of the first driving band would cut a cleaner hole to allow increased blood lost.

That's what Elmer Kieth thought, but Vernal Smith proved him wrong. Smith mixed ballistic gelatin and sand, then dipped the bullets in paint and fired them into the sand and gelatin mix.

The recovered semi-wadcutters had crusted paint and sand on their meplats (the flat nose) but no sand on the paint in the driving band -- proving that the meplat creats a shock wave that forms a temporary cavity and the driving band is inside the temporary cavity and never touches the medium.

 

[Sistema1927]

It kind of depends upon the caliber.

In my BBQ gun (Stainless 4 5/8" Blackhawk .45 Colt) I like the 255 Keith style SWC with a large meplat.

In my pocket gun #1 (Kahr PM9) I carry the Hornady Critical Defense 115.

In my pocket gun #2 (S&W 642) I carry the 135 +P Gold Dot.

 

[JDC215]

if theres nothing else to be had even wad cutters wont feel good on the receiving end, but i always carry federal hallow points. 125 gr in the summer and 185 in the winter. i live where it gets cold.

 

[eqlzr]

Regular quality 148 gr factory wadcutters (Winchester or Remington) are what I use in my snubbies. Nice soft deformable lead bullet, cuts a clean hole on entry, generates plenty of nice secondary projectiles in the way of bone splinters, quick follow-up shots possible because of manageable recoil. Comes in brass cases that can be reloaded many times.

 

[DBR]

There is another redeeming feature of full wadcutters that appeals to me. They usually follow a straight path so if your aim is true they will hit where you intended.

Hollow points if they expand can slew off in random directions possibly missing what you aimed for.

 

[pete950]

I carry the Buffalo Bore 150 grain full wad cutter.
for practice DEWC over 5.0 of unique = the BB load.
makes a clean hole cuts all the blood veseles and arteries so if you miss the vitals they will bleed out.
Oh and I hit what I'm shootin at with that load.
The shot placement is very important.

 

[LawofThirds]

Target wadcutters have one huge advantage over most other rounds.

They give an accurate .357 sized hole in a round that almost every weak, older, or otherwise disabled person can shoot comfortably and quickly.

They may not be fast, they may not be exciting and wide expanding. But they sure as hell beat the alternatives for a certain segment of the population.

 

[bluetopper]

A 148gr hard cast double ended full wadcutter loaded to the base of the bullet with 2400 powder in a 357 case hits with a helluva wallop I'm here to tell you.

 

[sw282]

l was moving a deer stand some years back. Armed only with my 2'' Chiefs Special. Out in the path stepped a doe of medium size some 40-50 ft in front. She suddenly stopped, started staring at me. As if to say, "You are in my way". l slowly set the ladder stand down l had been dragging. Drew my little snubby. lt was doe day and thought. l am legal. ln SC handgunning for is legal w/ any 'centerfire cartridge'. So l fired once and she fell kicking. l walked up and fired again into the lungs. She died quickly. The first round had hit high behind the shoulders and broken her back. the second passed thru both lungs. Both exited the body. Good results for 148gr mid range wc rds. These were Winchester factory.
A guy wanting a pistol during VIET NAM could get it. Officially or unofficially.lt just gave you an extra sense of security. Actually most any bullet worked well on thinly clad small Asian males/females. Snubs were highly prized because they easily concealed. Most every weapon had functioning problems because of water/mud/rust. l dont remember revolvers having any more function problems than others. Most reliable weapon was an AK and a good knife

For defense l carry factory wadcutters in that same M36

 

[USBP1969]

I had the privilege of working along side Jim Cirillo at FLETC for a number of years. (I forget how many exactly. The second thing that goes after age 65 is one's memory - I forget the first.)

Jim and I spent many hours discussing handgun ammunition for self defense. Jim preferred a wadcutter with just a light bit of cup point, just enough to make a sharper cutting edge. I preferred a full metal jacketed wadcutter for duty use since it would work better against bad guys inside vehicles.

Each year I'd get a call from out Central Officer in DC. They'd ask what the best gun /ammo combination would be for the US Border Patrol. I'd always answer a S&W fixed sighted revolver (like a Model-58) chambered for .45 Colt using a full wadcutter, full metal jacketed bullet at 800+ feet per second. It would have been a great combination IMO, but when they heard the word "wadcutter" they knew just enough about guns to know that it was a target load.

There was a book published years ago by a fluid engineer. He compared all bullet nose shapes for performance in ballistic gelatin as well as doing computer models. Using Hatcher's "Nose Configuration Factor" concept for providing a relative comparison between the different shapes he came up with the following:

-Round Nose Lead (& FMC) = 1.0
-Semi-Wadcutter = 1.5
-Pointed Cone Shaped = 1.6 (The old "metal Piercer Rounds)
-The best Hollow Point Tested = 3.25
-Full Wadcutter = 3.30

BVAC lists their 148 grain .38 Special wadcutter with a muzzle velocity of 875 f/s. The normal velocity listing from the Big Three is about 700 f/s. I have emailed them and await their answer about the published velocity. http://www.bvac-ammo.com/page26.html

Jimmy used to say that when engaged in a gun fight he wanted a handgun round capable of blowing the "Perp" into four equal pieces.


KW

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I used a hollowbased wadcutter loaded backwards (at .357 velocities) twice and it worked. If I could get one that wouldn't lead at those velocities, that's what I'd carry in my .357 today.

 

[bluetopper]

I've always wanted to find some 44 caliber double ended wadcutters, just a cylinder shaped hunk of lead, like 38cal. 148gr wadcutters. I know they would be awesome in a 44 Mag.

 

[S&Wfan]

The best deer hunting round I've ever used is a Keith style hard-cast lead "semi-wadcutter," the Federal 300 gn. "Cast Core" Premium Hunting round. Most accurate too!

Here it is with my trusty Model 29-5. Twice in the past ten years or so I've encountered three deer at once with this rig, and both times I dropped all three. I don't lose deer with this round, EVER.

Here's the round sitting atop the hide of a rare piebald Whitetail Buck I harvested with this rig. Lots of deer have fallen to this deer thumper through the years!!!

BTW, in a .38 special a wadcutter is a great round, as is the classic 158 gn LSWC-HP +P. Believe me, a sub-36 caliber bullet is plenty wide to do some major damage without needing to expand further!!!

 

[Drail]

Parisite, you have to look around but those bullets are out there. I obtained a small quantity a few years back - 180 GR full wadcutter cast tuna cans - and loaded them into .44 Spl cases for use in a Charter Bulldog. Oh my goodness. Without a doubt the most destructive bullet I have tried in that gun. They're probably only running about 800 FPS (or more) from that Bulldog but they make a mess out of 1 gallon water jug. I have never run HOT loads in the Bulldog because I want it to last as long as possible, but I think I'm onto something here. Some of the specialty casters will do a batch for you if you ask real nice.

 

[DBR]

If you want to really understand the effects of bullet shape vs velocity you need to read Duncan MacPherson's book "Bullet Penetration".

Bullet shape really matters and most expanded hollow points are not that effective. Creating a temporary cavity and expanding a bullet use a lot of energy that doesn't necessarily contribute to actual wounding. They look good in gello and may reduce over penetration. But, what about the 70% or so of rounds that miss in a typical LE incident? Aren't those rounds more dangerous than shoot thoroughs with rounds that make an effective wound channel?

The problem these days is the most effective bullet shapes don't feed in semi autos. From my perspective this means a revolver is the better self defense CCW weapon in most situations.

 

[pete950]

Parasite,

Penn bullets makes a 185 grain full DEWC for the 44

www.pennbullets.com

 

[USSR]

Interesting conversation. There is talk about semiwadcutters, wadcutters, and jacketed hollowpoints, but what is being completely overlooked and may be the very best answer (atleast for those of us who cast) is the lead hollowpoint, cast fairly soft.

Don