Service ammunition: is any of it effective?

[DougDubya]

He's still the exception, not the rule. The vast majority of human targets who take four .45s through the torso, regardless of what type of bullet, are done, instantly. That story is still anecdotal and doesn't change anything.

I'd really debate that.

Clint Smith teaches to not stop shooting until the party is over.

You carry a handgun for the rare instance where you may be attacked.
You carry a .45 for the rare instance that a modern 9mm load won't work.
Murphy loves hat tricks, and .45's DO fail.

When anecdotes build up, they form something called an "observable trend."

And the observable trend that I see is that 2.25mm and double the mass does not make much of a difference over modern defense ammunition.

 

[Prosser]

Where was the shooting where the bad guy shot the clerk, took 3 rounds of 45 COLT,
and didn't know he was dead for awhile?

 

[Blakenzy]

One round struck the officer in the head, killing him instantly

The seventh round severed his spinal cord, and the offender fell to the ground, dropping his weapon

It's funny how effective hits usually come from good shot placement.

“The wounds felt like bee stings.”

his wounds “only started to hurt when I woke up in the hospital.”

It's not about energy, "knockdown" power, or pain. It's about making a hole in the right organ. A handgun is really no more than a long range poking device. Deal with its shortcomings appropriately.

 

[Prosser]

Funny how this whole thing comes around. 100 years ago, drugged up bad guys made people want the 45 Colt for a carry gun, 260 grains at 1000 fps. History repeats itself...

 

[earlthegoat2]

Goes to show that when in doubt reach for the shotgun or rifle and still dont stop shooting until the party is over.

 

[mljdeckard]

I said all of these things already. Don't expect your pistol to do a rifle's job. Shoot until you run out of ammo, the threat is stopped, or it disappears from view.

Can you show a running trend of people who take four .45 hits to the torso and live to write a report? Where are all of these.....survivors, compared to the cadavers?

 

[General Geoff]

Statistically, a person is more likely to survive a pistol caliber gunshot wound than die from it. Even a .500 S&W Magnum shot to the torso isn't likely to kill someone, unless it hits a particularly vital organ, such as the heart or upper spinal cord.

This isn't necessarily a problem with handguns; it's more of a testament to modern medicine. 100 years ago, your chances of surviving ANY gun shot wound was far lower than it is today, and it's not because they used bigger, heavier, or faster bullets.

 

[DougDubya]

Funny how this whole thing comes around. 100 years ago, drugged up bad guys made people want the 45 Colt for a carry gun, 260 grains at 1000 fps. History repeats itself...

Which is doubly funny since .30 caliber rifles didn't even put down those drugged Moros.

The .30-40 about 200 fps less 7.62 x 51mm NATO ballistics for a 150 grain round versus a 146 grain , so how is a .45 Colt going to do what 93% of a .308 Winchester couldn't?

Once someone answers that for me, then explain why - at sharing a rowboat distance, a military officer STILL needed to thumbcock and fire an ENTIRE cylinder into a Moro, and only lived because he broke the rule of saving that 6th cylinder for your buryin' money?

Take your time, kids. Take your time.

 

[DougDubya]

I said all of these things already. Don't expect your pistol to do a rifle's job. Shoot until you run out of ammo, the threat is stopped, or it disappears from view.

Can you show a running trend of people who take four .45 hits to the torso and live to write a report? Where are all of these.....survivors, compared to the cadavers?

Gee, Evan Marshall documented a multiple-shot failure in a 1988 issue of Petersen's handguns.

There was mention and a corroborating news article of a woman shot five times who walked into the ER under her own power.

Baby Face Nelson killed two men who'd put 17 rounds of .45 ACP into him, then drove to his hideout and fell asleep and eventually bled to death - which was a DEFINITE failure since he'd have died right there.

Police have noted multiple instances where it's taken more than two or three hits with a .45 Auto to put down a pit bull protecting a drug storehouse (a creature 1/3rd the body mass of an average 180 lb male).

The Texas Department of Public Safety was not impressed with the .45 ACP SIG P220's performance and changed to the SIG Sauer P226 in .357 SIG.

My conclusion from the above facts: Four rounds of .45 auto is not a death ray.

(And I love the .45 ACP more than enough to turn my nose up at the .40 S&W and cherish the M&P45 and the black stainless Springfield Loaded .45 Auto.)

 

[Prosser]

WOW! Found Martin Fackler, pretty much writing on the caliber, and comparing it to what is essentially a heavy 45 COLT:-0
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Fackler_Articles/effects_of_small_arms.pdf

 

[mljdeckard]

....with no comparison at all to how many DIED.

The problem is not that four torso shots is unlikely to stop and kill someone. The problem is GETTING four torso hits in a real gunfight.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Which is doubly funny since .30 caliber rifles didn't even put down those drugged Moros.

The .30-40 about 200 fps less 7.62 x 51mm NATO ballistics for a 150 grain round versus a 146 grain , so how is a .45 Colt going to do what 93% of a .308 Winchester couldn't?

Oddly enough, people who were there, who fought bolo-weilding Moro Juramentados at bad breath distance, were the ones who demanded the .45 Colts be reissued -- and by and large seemed satisfied with them.

Of course, they didn't know about the .308 and didn't have computers to discuss the issue on.

Once someone answers that for me, then explain why - at sharing a rowboat distance, a military officer STILL needed to thumbcock and fire an ENTIRE cylinder into a Moro, and only lived because he broke the rule of saving that 6th cylinder for your buryin' money?

Take your time, kids. Take your time.

The rule is, if you have to shoot to stop an attacker, don't stop shooting until the attack stops.

 

[Prosser]

The .30-40 about 200 fps less 7.62 x 51mm NATO ballistics for a 150 grain round versus a 146 grain , so how is a .45 Colt going to do what 93% of a .308 Winchester couldn't?

Once someone answers that for me, then explain why - at sharing a rowboat distance, a military officer STILL needed to thumbcock and fire an ENTIRE cylinder into a Moro, and only lived because he broke the rule of saving that 6th cylinder for your buryin' money?

GREAT ARTICLE BY FACKLER.

When you look at comparing wounding, forget energy. Two kinds of damage:
permanent cavity, and temporary cavity, and, consider how quickly that occurs in the target.

The Swiss and Italians used a 300 grain bullet at 1300 fps, soft lead, in the late 1800's. The bullet would expand pretty much on impact, and cut a very large permanent cavity through the target. Our 45 Colt would do the same, pretty much. The 30-40 was in that area where it was a .308 hole through the target. The bullet didn't tumble, didn't create the huge temporary cavity that same bullet would at 30-06 velocity, or 7.62 x 54R, around 2700 fps.

It's really counter-intuitive, since 2400-2500 fps, with a 9.3 X 74R, or 9.3 x 62, and a 286 grain EXPANDING BULLET is one of the most deadly, and proven rounds in history.

Now, back to the handgun rounds:
How do they wound? Don't think energy or anything like that. What does the bullet do when it hits the target?

The wisdom of the 300 grain lead is it doesn't slow down much on it's way through the target, so, you get the same permanent would cavity all the way through the target. With our current service rounds, you get about 10-14" of wound cavity, and, the last part of that is not moving real fast.
Looks like this:

When you start looking at handgun wound patterns, you start getting the distinct idea that there is a BIG difference in temporary cavity between 900 and 1400 fps, and bullet design is huge, as well:

vs.

It seems pretty clear that with JHP ammo, the temporary cavity occurs quickly, and, can REALLY soak up the velocity of the bullet.

Also, the wounding that occurs with military ammunition is based on one factor, really: when and where the bullet tumbles in the wounding pattern. If it doesn't tumble, with a non-expanding bullet, you need extreme high velocity to create anything more then a .308" permanent wound channel.

This is a great page to punch up the wound channel diagrams, and get a feel for what actually happens.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm
When you combine that with
www.brassfetcher.com
it gives you a real good idea of what sort of results you get from your ammunition.

Another point this diagram makes:

Is that when you increase the MASS of an expanding bullet considerably, you increase the length of the temporary wound cavity
considerably. So, we have three critical factors:
bullet design: expanding is huge
striking velocity
the more velocity, the quicker the expanding bullet opens up, and, the larger the temporary cavity is going to be
and bullet weight
the heavier the bullet, the longer the temporary cavity is going to be.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

It's only lately, with the development of the Russian 5.45 round that we get "tumbling." Earlier bullets yaw -- usually not doing more than turning sideways when passing through a single body. A classic example is the bullet that hit Kennedy high in the back -- it left a classic "keyhole" in John Connoly's coat after it passed through Kennedy.

The old 5.56 ammo would sometimes fragment at the cannelure when yawing, and spread fragments at an angle to the wound channel -- and that made the wounds much more effective. Modern 5.56, with thicker jackets (required by the faster twist) and lower velocity don't tend to do this much.

 

[Prosser]

 

[Vern Humphrey]

A couple of points to bear in mind when interpreting the above illustrations:

1. The permanent cavity is more indicative of effectiveness than the temporary cavity.

2. The average man's torso is only about 25 cm thick.

The 9mm shown does yaw a bit, the .45 does not -- but that can be fixed with a little tweaking of bullet design. In any case, the .45 permanent cavity has more surface (bleed out) area than the 9mm.

If we go by permanent cavity in the target's body, the 5.45 round would be most deadly, with a large permanent cavity in the 7 to 17cm range.

The 7.62 NATO would be next, with a large permanent cavity beginning at about 20cm. The 7.62X39 begins its yaw at about 25cm -- most of its yaw occurring after exiting the body.

 

[Prosser]

OK:
So, let's do a little applied learning here. I've been bouncing around looking at brassfetcher.com
trying to figure out parameters for carry stuff.
Looking for bullets that expand, and penetrate as well. Reasoning the end result will determine the size of the permanent wound channel, bigger is better, and
the impact speed, and penetration are going to reflect the size of the temporary cavity.

First idea was 180 grain bullets, for ccw. Inadequate penetration, ever with little expansion: .40 S&W looked at. Mainly.

How about if we get them moving faster?
Try looking at the .41 mag. No expansion, but blows through the gelatin at 1300 fps. That with a 210 grain SWC.
10MM: 180 grain JHP: .65" average expansion, velocity 1065-1124:This appears to be the bottom threshold for adequate penetration, expansion,
giving a decent permanent channel, with a basic temporary.

.400 corbon seems to get near the same results, using a 155 grain DPX.
about 14" penetration, about .6" bullet expansion, done at 1200 fps, or so.

So, can we get more?

How about 44 magnum 180 grain bullet .429" caliber. .75" expansion, penetration marginal, at 12.6" bullet impacted at 1571 fps.


So, all that stuff about the .44 or .41 being too much for SD doesn't hold up when you look at that bullet weight, and velocity. The obvious question is how much velocity do you need before you get the FBI penetration of 18"?

Also, with that kind of velocity, the temporary cavity is going to be quite large.

So, the only other test is a Speer Gold Dot, 240 grains, at 1354 fps with. 73"
expansion. It goes through 16" of gelatin, and keeps going.

Lesson here. Bullet design really could open up more. 45 ACP Gold Dots open up to .85"

Here are Double Taps gello results:
DoubleTap 9mm+P
115gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1415fps - 12.00" / .70"
124gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1310fps - 13.25" / .70"
147gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.00" / .66"

DoubleTap .40 S&W Penetration / expansion
135gr. Nosler JHP @ 1375fps - 12.10" / .72"
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1275fps - 13.00" / .76"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1200fps - 14.0" / .70"
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1100fps - 14.75" / .68"
200gr XTP @ 1050fps - 17.75" / .59"


DoubleTap .357 Sig
115gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1550fps - 12.25" / .71"
125gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1450fps - 14.5" / .66"
147gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1250fps - 14.75" / .73"

DoubleTap .357 Magnum
125gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1600fps - 12.75" / .69"
158gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 19.0" .56"

DoubleTap 10mm
135gr JHP @ 1600fps - 11.0" / .70" frag nasty
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"
165gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1425fps - 14.75" / .82"
180gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1330fps - 16.0" / .85"
180gr XTP @ 1350fps – 17.25” / .77”
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"
200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"
230gr Equalizer @ 1040fps - 11.0" and 17.0" / .62" and .40"

DoubleTap .45ACP
185gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1225fps - 12.75" / .82"
200gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.25" / .88"
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"

DoubleTap 9X25
115gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1800fps - 10.0" / .64" frag nasty
125gr Gold DOt JHP @ 1725fps - 15.0" / .74"
147gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1550fps - 17.5" / .68"

I suspect, using the 45ACP Gold Dot, 230 grain bullet, in 45 Colt
I could move it at around 1300-1400 fps, and still get reasonable, but not too much penetration, and, get a .95" Permanent would channel, with a
big temporary cavity.

Also filling the bill are 10MM 180 grain Gold Dots:
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"
and
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"

I have 45 Super velocity, 1100 fps, with the same 45 ACP Gold Dot, 230 grains that McNett uses.
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"
I do wonder what it would do with more velocity, like 1300-1400 fps?
Or, do you need to go to the slightly lighter 200 grain Gold Dot, at that level?

Now the problem becomes finding a gun that will shoot any of the above...in a small package, with a barrel long enough so you don't loose
all your velocity.

Vern:
I suspect a bullet that is likely to yaw or tumble would do so promptly after hitting bone, and or the stuff that's usually covering your chest in combat(Fackler does bring this up).
So, the .308 does deserve it's reputation. Also, most shots aren't going to be through the chest. I would guess most shots are taken at prone, concealed opponents in war.

 

[Prosser]

OK:
So, now we have some idea of what kind of bullet weight, velocity, diameter we need to actually have a decent chance of getting a large permanent wound cavity, and decent size temporary cavity.

If you notice, NONE of these are service calibers, and, the .357 magnum is pretty close to being marginal, as well. Bullet expansion is around .7", along with 9mm and 40.

From the Gello results, you can see the 45ACP has an advantage with bullet diameter, and a pretty hefty one at that, but, due to limited velocity, the temporary cavity is going to suffer. 45 Super or 460 Rowland would both work, but, the 45 Super is the only one shootable in a small gun.

That leaves us with the Glock 29, in 10MM. My Detonics Combat Master setup for 45 Super.
I know guys have setup, and shot 45 Super out of Glock 30's as well.

Other considerations are Kahr's new PM45, which isn't legal in my state, and, I'm wondering about an 18 oz 45 Super gun, with 230 grain bullets...

Some of the light weight, alloy framed 1911's, Kimber in officer's model, Commander, etc.

Now revolvers.

The only ones I can think of right now are the Smith and Wesson Night Guard guns, and, the barrel length is questionable to get barrel velocity adequate for such light bullets.

The only other way to get to the party I can think of is calibers with short barrels, that shoot 350 grain, or heavier bullets, and Hollow points.

From my experience, the bullet weight, over 350 grains, will hold the bullet long enough for pressure to be high enough for exceptional velocity, out of a short barrel.
Something like this:

Or this:

or this:


I'm open to suggestions. I'd love to find a heavy 45 Colt revolver that I would be able to load 230 grain Speer Gold Dots at 1200-1400 fps...

 

[DougDubya]

Boy, I bring in rifle failures against the Moros, and everything flutters over heads. Not only that, but Prosser goes on about how the very caliber our boys in Iraq want over 5.56mm is somehow inferior to a simple .45 caliber revolver bullet firing Keith loads.

And sorry, Deckard, I don't collect death tolls and autopsy reports. Perhaps I should let you net ninjas continue deluding yourselves that anything in life, let alone handgun "stopping power" is 100% certain.

 

[mljdeckard]

Did you even read my posts?

 

[giggitygiggity]

They were probably high on something. That coupled with adrenaline can reduce effects of gunshot wounds.

 

[DougDubya]

Did you even read my posts?

More Vern Humphreys mentioning that a .30-40 Krag (and the 7.62mm x 51mm NATO) are less effective than a .45 Peacemaker against Moros.

And you asking for the death tolls which make me inform my supposition that even five .45 ACP rounds to the torso will always do the job. I do thank you for the cogent point that hitting four times in the torso in combat is an unlikely event.

 

[Prosser]

Doug
Thread is NOT about you. You asked how a rifle caliber might be less effective then a pistol caliber. I've posted extensive information about a situation, and, Martin Fackler to boot, on why a .308 rifle ballistic cavity may not be as devastating as a .45 caliber slow bullet.

YOU REALLY need to read the posts above...

 

[spyderdude]

No conventional firearm including rifles and shotguns are guaranteed one shot stoppers. If the threat is still standing and possibly advancing towards your position, keep shooting until the threat stops or you run your weapon empty. If that doesn't work either you better have spare ammunition ready to go in a magazine or speed loader.

 

[dom1104]

ok question.

Why is it always "pistol or rifle, pistol or rifle", "Dont grab a pistol to do a rifles job"?

It seems, if the truth of the matter is, you gotta hit the right area to stop, a shotgun is the weapon of choice.

16 pellet #1 Buckshot with two shots and you have just hit the guy with 32 projectiles in a pattern. 32!

How is this not superiour to a rifle, which you can still hit a non-lethal area with?

Why is a rifle thought of as some kind of ultimate weapon, when to me the shotgun obviously is superiour for self defense?

Pistol rounds are bad, we get it. moving on.