Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by InkEd, Nov 12, 2009.
Which of the leading service rifles would you pick if given a choice? Feel free to explain why.
Czech VZ58 in 7.62 x 39.
They have been building them, and tuning them since 1958.
I recollect somewhere that more than a million have been made to date.
I'm not going to get into the whole bolt gun vs. semi/full auto
But I will tell you that as a stock weapon
(If you have enough money, you can turn any pig's ear
Into a silk purse)
The 58 leaves all the AK variants and the AR's
Well back in the pack.
Are we talking about your own individual use or equipping a whole army?
I am assuming you are talking about semi-auto versions of those guns, and that it is going to be used by me alone, and I am not equipping an army.
I would go with an AR. You can find spare parts anywhere. Ammo is light weight and plentiful.
The vz58 is seemingly a nice weapon. I know little about them though. Aesthetically, it is similar to the AK. In terms of operation from what I've heard isn't "more or less" a piston driven Kalashnikov system. Kind of equivalent of Ruger SR 556 to the standard AR15/M16? Please enlighten me. Are they as indestructible as the AK.
I voted AK. Give me it anyday. I did not choose one of the full battle rifles because of weight of ammo. I am also familiar with the AK and not the AR so there you have it.
I chose the AK because of reliability and ease of use.
Individually or Unit? Let's say survivalist (ala "Red Dawn" for cheese factor) group.
Auto/Semi? For the purpose of the thread let's say Select Fire the God and the designers intended them.
Here's a nice comp.
Sheesh, I got beat to it?
AK's everywhere, and very durable. And I like the 7.62x39 round.
I was expecting the options to be AR-15, M14, Garand or '03 Springfield.
Thank you for the link. The vz seems like a more rifined rifle than the Ak. I definitely wouldn't mind having one. I will stick with my original ak pick because of the simplicity and part availablity. I think the soviet 7.62x39. Is one of the best rounds ever.
I voted other and choose this XCR in 6.8spc.
5.56 is a varmint round
AKs don't have the long range accuracy
Some options are not ambidextrous - I'm a lefty
the AUG can jam if you hit the bottom of the mag right
...so I go M14.
From the list, have only fired a few rounds from an AR, a WASR "AK" and several from an authentic German HK G-3.
The G-3s characteristics and solid, long-range punch have a very strong appeal. My only hang-up is with the fairly pricey .308 ammo for frequent practice.
Although I've never tried out my friend's Garand, am surprised that it is not on the list. The CMP sells tons of these (for quality and power, not just historical value), and its military 30-06 ammo is sold out for a while.
Just can't get excited about the .223 round, other than price.
Well, if given a choice of those rifles, I have three main calibers to chose from: 5.56x45mm, 7.62x39mm, and 7.62x51mm. Assuming I have to actually use this rifle for an extended period of time to possibly: hunt, defend myself and my family, or (in the spirit of "Red Dawn") take back my corner of Cimarron NM, (where the movie was actually filmed) I'd need a general all-around cartridge that could do most anything. This weapon, and its round of choice, would be called upon to perform many tasks from dropping most kinds of North American game such as whitetail, muley's, turkey's, and other types of small game and four-legged vermin, to effectively stopping two-legged vermin types. This round could also be called upon to penetrate barriers such as car windshields, common housing materials, etc. (once again, assuming I am completely on my own, and someone attempts to run me off the road, break into my safe shelter, or perform some other equally nefarious act. Think it can't happen? Watch the one and a half seasons of the CBS show Jericho. Yes, it's only TV, but every once in awhile they get things right.) Also, since I would be, in essence, by myself, the round would have to be light-weight enough to allow me to carry significant amounts on or about my person (vehicle perhaps) without grossly fatiguing me.
That qualification, unfortunately, rules out 7.62x51mm. I don't want to hear any arguing about it! If you think you can carry combat loads of 7.62x51mm over great distances and still maintain exceptional situational awareness and the ability to outmaneuver a foe...you should ruck up, get that battle rattle on and go try it for a weekend. I'm serious. Granted, you get weird looks walking along the Appalacian Trail with nearly full battle rattle but it surely shows you your limitations. (- 12lbs...I left the rifle at home, weapons on the AT are a touchy subject)
Remember though, this round also has to have enough punch to not only kill most types of game animal found in North America, but also to successfully penetrate barriers, whatever they may be. And while the 5.56x45mm round is very lightweight, and has a decent track record, I do not have enough faith in it to be an all-purpose round. The bullets are too light, even the 77gr ones, for me to want to take a shot at anything larger than a coyote. Yes, I know whitetail can be taken with the 5.56x45mm round, but think of the scenario: you're hungry, tired, scared, probably pushed well out of your comfort zone, and who knows how many other factors are effecting you at that moment in time. When you go to take that shot at what potentially could be dinner, do you want to take the shot and then have to potentially track a wounded animal for who knows how far through the woods? Say you are in a vehicle moving towards better hunting grounds, or trying to link up with family or friends and someone attempts to force you off the road. Do you really trust that little 5.56x45mm round to have the ability to punch through the windshield of a car and incapacitate the driver, or introduce enough foreign mass into the engine of the vehicle to cause a catastrophic failure? Personally, no, I do not. I think the 5.56x45mm round is a great round for plinking, small game, and general light duty, but if cast into a scenario where my rifle is my life, I think it leaves much to be desired.
No I am not trying to say that the 7.62x39mm round is perfect, a wonder round, or that the weapons platform that delivers it is perfect for every situation, but I do think that the system provides the best of both worlds: relatively light weight for increased ammunition carrying capacity while still maintaining significant lethality in a compact, light weight (When compared to most 7.62x51mm systems) reliable, easy to use and easy to maintain platform. No disrespect to the AR system, I am a big fan, its ease of use, inherant accuracy and ergonomics are hard to beat, yet I think its round needs an upgrade. I will readily agree that out of their respective platforms, the 7.62x39mm round has nowhere near the range of the 5.56x45mm round. To this I counter: if I am in all out survival mode and a threat appears outside of my engagement range I will pound sand and vacate the area before he can find, fix, and destroy me. Depending upon the scenario, once I have removed myself from his LOS and LOF, I will then proceed to either avoid his last known location like the plague, or close with the target until I am within the operational parameters of my system. I will also agree that in their familiar guise, the 5.56x45mm round and platform is far more accurate than that of the 7.62x39. However, with enough practice, the AK-47/AKM family of rifles is in fact quite shootable with a fair degree of accuracy. Probably more accuracy than most of us are capable of shooting...I mean, really shooting. From combat-type positions, after a hard run, or when you're scared or angry. So while my choice is not perfect, and has flaws, I think it provides the best of both worlds. My vote goes to the AK-47/AKM family of rifles.
Of the options listed, I would go w/ an M14
Good post Shadow Man, thanks for the spaces!
Guys in general....remember a good bullet design used with the .223/5.56 is MUCH better than your average FMJ loading in some of the other calibers. It's not conjecture or theory. It is plenty for humans at combat ranges if you hit the right locations. That is the hard part in real life.
+1 on the AK
-1 on the longest post ever.
I shoot .30 caliber rounds well so anything in that range would work for me. I like the Garand and imagine that I'd also like the M14 so I picked that.
It was simply so much better that as soon as the Czechs came out with it, the AK ceased to be manufactured.
Come on. They are good rifles, but they aren't night and day better than everything out there.
Also--for the love of GOD, please stop hitting <enter> twice after five or six words. It's painful reading your otherwise generally intelligent and well said comments. Your text will automatically fit the screen.
M4 in CQB; M14 in open areas.
For me this question is answerable only one way.
the AR is the only one with a fantastic and easy to swap in and out 22lr conversion, and for me thats a must.
AR + CMMG Stainless 22lr conversion + 10 22LR mags + 20 AR Mags + QD red dot + little rubber tube to throw the other bolt into.
Fantastic, fun, and ... pretty much perfect for me.
I dont buy that the 5.56 cant take deer, and thats from my personal experiance. <shhh>
Dom, I never said that the 5.56x45mm couldn't take a deer. In fact, I said quite the opposite. What I said was that in less-than-optimal conditions, I wouldn't want to rely upon it as my sole rifle for putting meat on the table.
My apologies for a super long post, it was late, I was bored, and apparantly poured all of my creative juices into that. However, "suffer" through it? No sir, I do not expect anyone to do anything that obviously so greatly pains them, however; even in the light of day it was still a well thought out, rational post. And I might add, most words are spelled correctly, and the grammar seems to be okay. I don't know what there is to "suffer" through...
I have owned 1- AK and 2-AR15s like them all....I guess it boils down to accuracy and preferencial look for me. Therefore my vote is for the M16 variant
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