ServiceSoon
Member
A real patriot would buy it for $500 and keep it.
Sgt. York relic threatened by NFA; will ATF show some wisdom?
- Thread starter hammer4nc
- Start date
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the naked prophet
Member
I was thinking, "you know, I'll bet he seriously thought about keeping it, all oiled up and protected, somewhere safe, and not telling anyone about it."
And then I thought "you know, I'll bet that happens quite a bit. And nobody knows about it."
Warm fuzzies.
And then I thought "you know, I'll bet that happens quite a bit. And nobody knows about it."
Warm fuzzies.
offthepaper
Member
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2005
- Messages
- 1,446
----------------------------------------------------
Sold!
Seriously, could'nt this piece of history be donated to the US Army Small Arms Museum (formerly of Aberdeen, Md. - presently in Leesburg, Va) instead of ending up at the wrong end of a cutting torch. Does anyone know what the criteria for making such a donation is?
As far as Kennedy and Kerry (yeah, the stand up war hero himself
), does that really surprise anyone. They likely just want it for themselves, and might share it from time to time.......Ted could use it for clearing bridges, and John might like to take it with him next time he's crawling around the woods on his belly hunting deer. 
LawBot5000
Member
Problem isnt the ATF's wisdom, but Congress' wisdom. Or lack thereof.
woerm
Member
call your congress critters hr 1141
the latest interation of the Veterans heritage firearms act
call your congress critter ask them to co sponsor the veterans firearms heritage act
now hr 1141
linky
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c110:1:./temp/~c1101znwmn::
And also ask them to ammend it to delete 922(o) not just an amnesty.
also support the related action hr1791 "fairness in firearms testing"
thanks,
r
the latest interation of the Veterans heritage firearms act
call your congress critter ask them to co sponsor the veterans firearms heritage act
now hr 1141
linky
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c110:1:./temp/~c1101znwmn::
And also ask them to ammend it to delete 922(o) not just an amnesty.
also support the related action hr1791 "fairness in firearms testing"
thanks,
r
woerm
Member
deadin
Member
Section 3 of HR1141 might fly, but I don't see Section 2 getting anywhere. Would just saying that I found the MG42 in Grandpa's stuff qualify it or would I need paperwork showing that he brought it home as a souvenir? I think that most NFA stuff that "came home from the war" did it in a duffel bag without benifit of paperwork. Section 2 appears too much like another attempt to circumvent the NFA and the National Register.
El Tejon
Member
Oh, man, all the ones I'm finding have been DEWAT'd and Form 5'd.
Crunker1337
Member
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2007
- Messages
- 1,168
Actually, it is possible for a civlian/other non NFA entity to have a post-86 MG - Form 5. Basically it's taz-exempt but the BATFE will only pass it if they like you.
Exposure
Member
Form 5's are used to transfer an NFA weapon, tax free, to a gunsmith for repair, thus keeping him from being in a posession of a firearm that is papered to someone else.
Regardless of how much ATF likes someone they will absolutely NOT transfer a post 86 MG to a civillian. It's Federal law and the BATF is simply enforcing the ridiculous 86 ban. And in the instances that a postie does slip through the cracks, they will find it, and take it away. It can, and has, happened to people who payed big bucks for a transferable only to find out that years ago a paperwork screw up showed a post 86 as a transferable. Guess what happens? ATF confiscates the gun.
kcmarine
Member
Make an offer to the National WWI Museum in Kansas City. They'd love to have something like that, and the ATF would have to be crazy to take away a gun from an organization like that.
6_gunner
Member
Seriously, what would be the danger in allowing the library to display the gun intact?!?! The thing probably doesn't even work.
It's not like local gang-bangers are gonna to raid the library so they can have a massive, ancient machine gun which probably doesn't even work. What would they do, mount the thing on the hood of a car??? :banghead:
It's not like local gang-bangers are gonna to raid the library so they can have a massive, ancient machine gun which probably doesn't even work. What would they do, mount the thing on the hood of a car??? :banghead:
Turkey Creek
Member
You forget we are dealing with buerocrats- These yoyos only go by the book and are incapable of thinking outside the box- Why else are they working for the government other than they cannot make it in the private sector- Individual thought is outside the realm of government workers be they the lowest peon up to the head clown-
feedthehogs
Member
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2003
- Messages
- 1,801
Ah the good old days...............
xd9fan
Member
God I hope americans everywhere think like you do.
Feanaro
Member
You don't seem to understand. If there is a rule against it, a government beuraucratic would sooner prance naked in front of the entire country while singing "It's Raining Men" than contradict it, logic and fairness be damned, full speed ahead.
TheOld Man
Member
RE: Demilling it..What caliber IS that little beauty? I bet ammo hasn't been made for it since Germany was disarmed in 1919.
LawBot5000
Member
The brits had them in 577 and 450 martini-henry like their old pre-enfield rifles. The Vickers was basically a Maxim in 303 British.
The germans chambered their 1908 model in 7.92 mauser, just like all the other MGs up till when they joined NATO. The figures I'm finding suggest the germans made several hundred thousand of them during WWI. That seems insane.
The russians chambered it in 7.62x54R, another shocker there.
The germans chambered their 1908 model in 7.92 mauser, just like all the other MGs up till when they joined NATO. The figures I'm finding suggest the germans made several hundred thousand of them during WWI. That seems insane.
The russians chambered it in 7.62x54R, another shocker there.
There is a provision for unregistered MG's to be turned over to certain museums. I'm not 100% sure of the details, but I believe the museum has to be a *Federal* museum. That way the gun is essentially being turned over to the federal government. Once the federal government has possession of the "contraband" it can chose to either destroy it or display it.
I know that the Marine Corps Museum in Quantico has received several unregistered, contraband WWII MG's this way in the past. The trick is that the museum has to agree to accept the gun and there will be NO payment. It is contraband being turned over to the government.
There is absolutely no way the town is going to get any money out of this MG. The best they can hope for is for it to be displayed in a museum somwhere, probably not even close to the this town, and not destroyed.
I know that the Marine Corps Museum in Quantico has received several unregistered, contraband WWII MG's this way in the past. The trick is that the museum has to agree to accept the gun and there will be NO payment. It is contraband being turned over to the government.
There is absolutely no way the town is going to get any money out of this MG. The best they can hope for is for it to be displayed in a museum somwhere, probably not even close to the this town, and not destroyed.
LawBot5000
Member
Repealing or overturning 922(o) is years away if we ever manage to accomplish it. No way this library will make money off this MG, which is really a shame IMO.
Update, with a few more details...
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/04/army_yorkgun_070429w/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Library hopes to sell WWI gun to raise funds
By David Liscio - Special to the Times
Posted : Monday Apr 30, 2007 5:19:11 EDT
A small Massachusetts town wants to auction a rare German machine gun believed to have been captured by legendary Army Sgt. Alvin C. York during World War I, hoping to use the money to fund its public library improvements, but the federal government says the unregistered automatic weapon can’t be sold.
Library trustees in Nahant, Mass., estimate the German-made Maxim machine gun could fetch as much as $200,000, considering its reputed relationship to the Great War’s most decorated American soldier. But agents of the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms say the law specifically prohibits such transactions.
Meanwhile, the vintage weapon is under lock and key at the Nahant police station while U.S. Rep. John F. Tierney, a Massachusetts Democrat, and other members of Congress attempt to find a solution.
According to Nahant town officials and local accounts, resident Mayland Lewis was an Army lieutenant on the battlefield in the Argonne Forest of France on Oct. 8, 1918, when York led seven soldiers in a daring attack on a German machine gun nest, killing 25 and capturing 132 others. Lewis, assigned to the adjutant’s staff, was ordered to take notes on York’s bravery and the German surrender.
Many of the stunned Germans were ordered to stack their weapons near the adjutant’s headquarters. According to the family, Lewis plucked the deadly Maxim machine gun and a Mauser rifle from the pile and shipped them home as war souvenirs.
On Armistice Day, which celebrated the end of World War I, the Nahant Boy Scouts paraded the machine gun along the streets of the peninsula in a small red wagon, according to Lewis’ son, Mayland P. “Nippy” Lewis Jr. His Dec. 17, 2002, letter to Nahant historian Calantha Sears explains that his father was not an ardent motion picture fan, but eagerly attended a showing of the movie Warner Brothers made in 1941 entitled “Sergeant York,” starring Gary Cooper.
“We went to see it and the story came out,” the younger Lewis wrote.
More recently, Mayland Lewis’ granddaughter, Deborah Durnam Craig, upon learning of the bureaucratic stalemate, e-mailed the Lynn, Mass., newspaper to say the machine gun occupies “a very interesting part of my family history” and that she remembers her grandfather saying he knew Sgt. York.
York, who was born in Pall Mall, Tenn., received the Medal of Honor and other prestigious commendations, including the Legion of Honor and the Croix de Guerre. Witnesses said the 30-year-old infantry sergeant charged the machine gun nest head-on after his platoon suffered heavy casualties. The water-cooled Maxim was a state-of-the-art killing machine, credited with cutting down more American soldiers than any other infantry weapon.
Daniel deStefano, the Nahant library director, said the Lewis family gave the machine gun to the town. A July 5, 1919, article in the Lynn (Mass.) Daily Evening Item newspaper noted that Lewis shipped the machine gun home after retrieving it on the battlefield.
Lewis presented the machine gun and rifle to Nahant Library Trustee Fred C. Wilson during a homecoming reception for returning servicemen. The weapon ended up in the library attic until about three years ago, when deStefano literally tripped over it.
“I reached down to move this heavy thing that I thought was a piece of pipe, never expecting to find a machine gun at the other end,” deStefano said. “That’s when we got interested in finding out more about what it might be worth because we are trying to raise money for a library expansion. We thought it might be better to sell the machine gun than ask the taxpayers for more money.”
John Welsh, a library trustee, said a bureaucratic tangle emerged. “It’s a machine gun and it’s not registered, so apparently we can’t sell it until we find a legal way to own it,” he said. “We’ve had estimates that it could be worth up to $200,000, presuming we can show its relationship to Sergeant York.”
ATF Special Agent Jim McNally in Boston stressed that the law is clear on such matters: The weapon cannot be sold but it can be donated to a public or private museum.
Library officials are still hopeful their case might prove an exception.
“If we can’t get it registered and sold ... the gun should not be destroyed,” deStefano said. “It should go to a historical museum that can keep it securely.”
“But we sure could use the money. This building ran out of space 60-70 years ago.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Comment: As one previous poster mentioned, consider all the innocent actions associated with this relic, that are now serious felonies. Shipping back war souveniers, unpapered transfer, possession by minors (in a large public gathering, no less). Capping off, a potential treasure becomes worthless. Kind of an apt metaphor for the insidious growth of government in the last 90 years, eh?
Ironically, since the argument is now between two government entities, rather than a private owner vs. the feds, I find myself less sympathetic over the monetary loss. Though, to reiterate, if this was a private owner, you can bet criminal charges would be threatened; and force used by the feds to take physical possession, rather than merely the financial squabble we now see.
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/04/army_yorkgun_070429w/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Library hopes to sell WWI gun to raise funds
By David Liscio - Special to the Times
Posted : Monday Apr 30, 2007 5:19:11 EDT
A small Massachusetts town wants to auction a rare German machine gun believed to have been captured by legendary Army Sgt. Alvin C. York during World War I, hoping to use the money to fund its public library improvements, but the federal government says the unregistered automatic weapon can’t be sold.
Library trustees in Nahant, Mass., estimate the German-made Maxim machine gun could fetch as much as $200,000, considering its reputed relationship to the Great War’s most decorated American soldier. But agents of the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms say the law specifically prohibits such transactions.
Meanwhile, the vintage weapon is under lock and key at the Nahant police station while U.S. Rep. John F. Tierney, a Massachusetts Democrat, and other members of Congress attempt to find a solution.
According to Nahant town officials and local accounts, resident Mayland Lewis was an Army lieutenant on the battlefield in the Argonne Forest of France on Oct. 8, 1918, when York led seven soldiers in a daring attack on a German machine gun nest, killing 25 and capturing 132 others. Lewis, assigned to the adjutant’s staff, was ordered to take notes on York’s bravery and the German surrender.
Many of the stunned Germans were ordered to stack their weapons near the adjutant’s headquarters. According to the family, Lewis plucked the deadly Maxim machine gun and a Mauser rifle from the pile and shipped them home as war souvenirs.
On Armistice Day, which celebrated the end of World War I, the Nahant Boy Scouts paraded the machine gun along the streets of the peninsula in a small red wagon, according to Lewis’ son, Mayland P. “Nippy” Lewis Jr. His Dec. 17, 2002, letter to Nahant historian Calantha Sears explains that his father was not an ardent motion picture fan, but eagerly attended a showing of the movie Warner Brothers made in 1941 entitled “Sergeant York,” starring Gary Cooper.
“We went to see it and the story came out,” the younger Lewis wrote.
More recently, Mayland Lewis’ granddaughter, Deborah Durnam Craig, upon learning of the bureaucratic stalemate, e-mailed the Lynn, Mass., newspaper to say the machine gun occupies “a very interesting part of my family history” and that she remembers her grandfather saying he knew Sgt. York.
York, who was born in Pall Mall, Tenn., received the Medal of Honor and other prestigious commendations, including the Legion of Honor and the Croix de Guerre. Witnesses said the 30-year-old infantry sergeant charged the machine gun nest head-on after his platoon suffered heavy casualties. The water-cooled Maxim was a state-of-the-art killing machine, credited with cutting down more American soldiers than any other infantry weapon.
Daniel deStefano, the Nahant library director, said the Lewis family gave the machine gun to the town. A July 5, 1919, article in the Lynn (Mass.) Daily Evening Item newspaper noted that Lewis shipped the machine gun home after retrieving it on the battlefield.
Lewis presented the machine gun and rifle to Nahant Library Trustee Fred C. Wilson during a homecoming reception for returning servicemen. The weapon ended up in the library attic until about three years ago, when deStefano literally tripped over it.
“I reached down to move this heavy thing that I thought was a piece of pipe, never expecting to find a machine gun at the other end,” deStefano said. “That’s when we got interested in finding out more about what it might be worth because we are trying to raise money for a library expansion. We thought it might be better to sell the machine gun than ask the taxpayers for more money.”
John Welsh, a library trustee, said a bureaucratic tangle emerged. “It’s a machine gun and it’s not registered, so apparently we can’t sell it until we find a legal way to own it,” he said. “We’ve had estimates that it could be worth up to $200,000, presuming we can show its relationship to Sergeant York.”
ATF Special Agent Jim McNally in Boston stressed that the law is clear on such matters: The weapon cannot be sold but it can be donated to a public or private museum.
Library officials are still hopeful their case might prove an exception.
“If we can’t get it registered and sold ... the gun should not be destroyed,” deStefano said. “It should go to a historical museum that can keep it securely.”
“But we sure could use the money. This building ran out of space 60-70 years ago.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Comment: As one previous poster mentioned, consider all the innocent actions associated with this relic, that are now serious felonies. Shipping back war souveniers, unpapered transfer, possession by minors (in a large public gathering, no less). Capping off, a potential treasure becomes worthless. Kind of an apt metaphor for the insidious growth of government in the last 90 years, eh?
Ironically, since the argument is now between two government entities, rather than a private owner vs. the feds, I find myself less sympathetic over the monetary loss. Though, to reiterate, if this was a private owner, you can bet criminal charges would be threatened; and force used by the feds to take physical possession, rather than merely the financial squabble we now see.
Autolycus
Member
Gotta love stupid government laws. What is the harm if the town auctioned off the gun to make some money to build their library?
And the ATF really wants to destroy a historical artifact? This is a special gun that should be displayed for all to see.
As for Bush and his Hi-Power, well why doesnt the ATF arrest him? I mean he did break a federal law.
And the ATF really wants to destroy a historical artifact? This is a special gun that should be displayed for all to see.
As for Bush and his Hi-Power, well why doesnt the ATF arrest him? I mean he did break a federal law.
AntiqueCollector
Member
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2007
- Messages
- 842
There's already a "solution" written into the law--an "amnesty" period could be declared, but it won't happen. It'd be nice if this situation could be used to overturn the '86 ban but I doubt it.
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