Sherrif demands I remove my firearm

[ec4321]

An officer is checking out something that appears suspicious. An armed man approaches.

Correct. What irks me, is that invasion over something I don't see as reasonably suspicious. OP wouldn't have left it like that either if he thought a reasonable person would have thought so either. That's what leads to the dangerous circumstances.

Did the officer have any way of knowing that the man walking toward her with a firearm was the resident who owned the car? Did the officer have reason to be concerned for her safety until the forearm had been secured? Did the OP think about any of these things?

This can be written, just as easily as:

Did the OP have any way of knowing that the person who was in their yard uninvited was not presenting a danger (fake, malicious LEO) or was in pursuit of a BG who presented a danger to him? Did the OP have reason to be concerned for his safety? Did the officer think about any of these things?

This isn't meant to be argumentative, but this comes from my opinion that the LEO in this case was responsible for creating the dangerous situation, not the OP.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by ec4321: What irks me, is that invasion over something I don't see as reasonably suspicious.

It's not an "invasion", and one would have to ask the officer for the reason for any suspicion.

And yes, she should have explained.

Posted by ec4321: Did the OP have any way of knowing that the person who was in their yard uninvited was not presenting a danger (fake, malicious LEO) or was in pursuit of a BG who presented a danger to him? Did the OP have reason to be concerned for his safety? Did the officer think about any of these things?

The only rational and safe way to mitigate that risk is to get back in the house, call the police, and to not approach.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...this comes from my opinion that the LEO in this case was responsible for creating the dangerous situation...

It is in fact common for an LEO to create a dangerous situation for him/herself by performing his/her duties. That is the nature of the job of an LEO.

 

[ec4321]

It's not an "invasion",

Clearly a matter of opinion. For me, anyone coming on my property needs a good reason or I would consider it to be an invasion of my privacy, and as it turned out for the OP his dignity and sovereignty (Being ordered around, etc).

The only rational and safe way to mitigate that risk is to get back in the house, call the police, and to not approach.

Agree, but I am not sure you would be able to pull this off and survive, at least unscathed legally. You might, but it would be a gamble.

LEO goes for their firearm ordering you to disarm, retreating into your house with your firearm is likely to have some pretty serious consequences.

 

[ec4321]

It is in fact common for an LEO to create a dangerous situation for him/herself by performing his/her duties. That is the nature of the job of an LEO.

Frank, I think it's clear that it what was implied that it was an unnecessarily dangerous situation.

I think it could have been avoided entirely. Even if the LEO thought it to be suspicious, other procedures and protocols could have allowed her to vet the situation without creating the dangerous, armed confrontation.

 

[PBR Streetgang]

Game, Being rural AZ, I would think open carry was common,correct me if I'm wrong.When coming onto your property I would announce the reason for my visit.I'm officer friendly till there is a reason not to be. Not knowing you personally I'd ask if you minded showing me some ID explaining that you wouldn't be happy if someone was stealing you car and I let them go with out checking.I'd probably ask you what you were carrying and compliment you on your choice. If I felt something was amiss I'd thank you for your time ,return to my cruiser and call for backup while keeping a eye on you. If everything was ok I'd probably thank you for your time,shake your hand and leave you a business card and tell you to call if I could be of assistance at another time. we both go our separate ways with a smile.

 

[ec4321]

Game, Being rural AZ, I would think open carry was common,correct me if I'm wrong.When coming onto your property I would announce the reason for my visit.I'm officer friendly till there is a reason not to be. Not knowing you personally I'd ask if you minded showing me some ID explaining that you wouldn't be happy if someone was stealing you car and I let them go with out checking.I'd probably ask you what you were carrying and compliment you on your choice. If I felt something was amiss I'd thank you for your time ,return to my cruiser and call for backup while keeping a eye on you. If everything was ok I'd probably thank you for your time,shake your hand and leave you a business card and tell you to call if I could be of assistance at another time. we both go our separate ways with a smile.

Perfect Execution.

Can you write that up as protocol and get LEOs to adopt it?

 

[Salmoneye]

An officer is checking out something that appears suspicious. An armed man approaches.

Did the officer have any way of knowing that the man walking toward her with a firearm was the resident who owned the car? Did the officer have reason to be concerned for her safety until the forearm had been secured? Did the OP think about any of these things?

And we are back to the fact that the LEO should have called in the plate, found the car belonged at that address, and driven off...The the LEO would not have had any reason to worry about the owner of the vehicle being armed or not, let alone feared for their safety...

Where I live, there is nothing whatsoever 'suspicious' about a car door being open on a hot day, or having my front door open with 'no one around', etc...

Our town has no PD; the closest State Barracks is 30 minutes fast drive away; we contract with the next town up for the occasional traffic control cruiser; and Sheriffs in this state are process servers and traffic control for construction zones...

LEOs here simply do not behave the way this person did in the OP...

I guess the more I hear about the rest of the country, the more I know I am in the right place...

 

[orionengnr]

PBR, thank you for your service.
When I was growing up, your kind was the rule.
I lament the fact that today your kind is all but extinct.

Gamestalker, please keep us updated. I think Armoredman's advice is good with regard to requesting a police report, and then acting accordingly.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted byec4321:For me, anyone coming on my property needs a good reason or I would consider it to be an invasion or my privacy, and as it turned out for the OP his dignity and sovereignty (Being ordered around, etc).

OK. Did the officer have any way of knowing that the approaching person was the resident? Had the officer been called by a neighbor who had not seen the resident move his car? Had there been a report of suspicious activity in the neithborhood, or a crime nearby?

Agree [(that he only rational and safe way to mitigate that risk is to get back in the house, call the police, and to not approach)], but I am not sure you would be able to pull this off and survive, at least unscathed legally. You might, but it would be a gamble.

LEO goes for their firearm ordering you to disarm, retreating into your house with your firearm is likely to have some pretty serious consequences.

You've missed the point completely. The OP approached before the officer saw him coming with a gun. Had he had any concern at all over the identity of the officer, he should not have approached. The watchword is ADEE.

If someone carrying a gun walks up on an officer who is investigating a potential crime scene, he or she can reasonably expect to be treated with some degree of caution--at best.

 

[Salmoneye]

PBR, thank you for your service.
When I was growing up, your kind was the rule.
I lament the fact that today your kind is all but extinct.

I disagree...

His 'type' are alive and well from what I see here...

ADDING:

It has been brought to my attention that my brief post may be taken incorrectly...

My point was that PBR Streetgang's 'type' of 'Officer Friendly' LEO is alive and well HERE where I live, and for that I am eternally grateful...

 

[oneounceload]

Did the OP have any way of knowing that the person who was in their yard uninvited was not presenting a danger (fake, malicious LEO)

Fake cops? for crying out loud - SERIOUSLY??? because out in the boonies, folks have nothing better to do? gimme a break and loosen the damn tinfoil folks...............

And in accordance with that warped sense of reality, the officer had no idea if the person approaching her armed didn't just commit an "In Cold Blood" style invasion and might be wanting to do her harm

Unbelievable the paranoia on this thread

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Salmoneye: And we are back to the fact that the LEO should have called in the plate, found the car belonged at that address, and driven off...

You are making an assumption about what the officer was investigating, and why.

The the LEO would not have had any reason to worry about the owner of the vehicle being armed or not, let alone feared for their safety...

..and about whether it was at all clear about just who the armed man approaching the officer happened to be.

 

[ec4321]

Fake cops? for crying out loud - SERIOUSLY??? because out in the boonies, folks have nothing better to do? gimme a break and loosen the damn tinfoil folks...............

Maybe in your town. Where I live, there are fake officers, and malicious officers. One officer helped a drug dealer plant a bomb to kill an attorney.

And in accordance with that warped sense of reality, the officer had no idea if the person approaching her armed didn't just commit an "In Cold Blood" style invasion and might be wanting to do her harm

Unbelievable the paranoia on this thread

Funny you should say that. Almost that exact scenario was presented with a straight face as real Reasonable Suspicion justification. I guess the paranoia is on both sides of the fence.

 

[PBR Streetgang]

I disagree...

His 'type' are alive and well from what I see here...

ADDING:

It has been brought to my attention that my brief post may be taken incorrectly...

My point was that PBR Streetgang's 'type' of 'Officer Friendly' LEO is alive and well HERE where I live, and for that I am eternally grateful...

I've since retired,and I was a dinosaur before I did.In my day I had some real cops for training officers,you did the right thing and not always by the book. The problem I see today is a lot of people hired for police work had no real life experience before becoming a officer. They worked as the assistant manager of the popcorn machine at the local theater and then got a gun and badge,watched too many Dirty Harry movies.
It's all about your people skills 90% of the time.

 

[ec4321]

The OP approached before the officer saw him coming with a gun. Had he had any concern at all over the identity of the officer, he should not have approached.

If someone carrying a gun walks up on an officer who is investigating a potential crime scene, he or she can reasonably expect to be treated with some degree of caution--at best.

Solid point.

I can see how the officers actions here could have led to such a confrontation completely unavoidable though too. Armed home owner could have been in the car working on the fuse box, no where to go. This is why I think her protocol stinks to high heaven.

OK. Did the officer have any way of knowing that the approaching person was the resident? Had the officer been called by a neighbor who had not seen the resident move his car? Had there been a report of suspicious activity in the neithborhood, or a crime nearby?

Nope. Nope. Maybe rape and murder were reported, maybe not. Officer, lacking this knowledge, but yet was so suspicious she felt obligated to investigate this open car door - she could have called for backup, used her loud speaker, called in the plate... limitless ways to do it better than she did. Of course my hindsight is perfect.

 

[armoredman]

Walking out to uniformed officer wearing a gun? How STUPID is that idea?

This is Arizona, we've had lawful open carry for over 100 years, and uniformed and non-uniformed officers should be aware of that. One item brought up by an earlier poster - the officer may indeed be a transplant from another state. I worked for a Captain who spent 15 years with New Jersey state police, and even after being here for years, couldn't understand why people could walk around armed. That's the way it is here. I've been armed around many AZ LEO before I got into the Dept, no issues.

Fake cops? for crying out loud - SERIOUSLY??? because out in the boonies, folks have nothing better to do? gimme a break and loosen the damn tinfoil folks...............

Tinfoil? Did you read the link I put up, or just blow right by? We've had several people hurt/assaulted/killed out here by home invasion squads dressed as/identifying themselves as police, so perhaps you should take off the blinders and see we aren't wearing tinfoil here.

And in accordance with that warped sense of reality, the officer had no idea if the person approaching her armed didn't just commit an "In Cold Blood" style invasion and might be wanting to do her harm

So with that logic, anyone lawfully carrying openly should be thrown down and handcuffed just in case, even if the open carrier's actions are 100% legal? Let me reform that into a basic question - does officer safety override all laws? If I didn't want to get thrown on in the pods, I suppose I could have simply hosed every pod down with OC before I entered, because my safety overrides CRIPA, right?
WRONG.
What we don't have is all the details from both sides. It would be interesting to read the officer's report, if one was made. The possibility is the officer, regardless of experience or origin, should be a bit more careful and respectful of citizen rights, and trained in such a way, a way I've seen Arizona LEO act for over 40 years.

 

[oneounceload]

Maybe in your town. Where I live, there are fake officers, and malicious officers. One officer helped a drug dealer plant a bomb to kill an attorney.

nice town, please cite the examples

So with that logic, anyone lawfully carrying openly should be thrown down and handcuffed just in case, even if the open carrier's actions are 100% legal?

No one said that, but it is pretty stupid to approach a uniformed cop investigating something they deem suspicious with a gun

Maybe you should just tell the police not to investigate any activity at your place then, because you obviously "have it handled and under control"

This is Arizona, we've had lawful open carry for over 100 years

Wow, hate to tell you, you aren't the only one, AZ, but you ARE one of the few on the front lines of a current invasion by illegals and drug dealers, and LEO's WILL act on the side of caution as would anyone else - flagrantly flaunting the gun to a cop investigating something is plain idiotic and asking for more crap than is necessary than just walking out, greeting the cop without the gun, and explaining things........

 

[ec4321]

nice town, please cite the examples

http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/dailyrft/2011/08/aaron_reid_guilty_plea_bombing_milton_ohlsen.php

... but it is pretty stupid to approach a uniformed cop investigating something they deem suspicious with a gun

..... flagrantly flaunting the gun to a cop investigating something is plain idiotic and asking for more crap than is necessary than just walking out, greeting the cop without the gun, and explaining things........

OP had no way to know the cop was investigating something the cop thought was suspicious. OP didn't think a car with open doors was "Suspicious" or he wouldn't have left it like that.

Flagrantly Flaunting the gun to the cop? You might be taking a bit of a hollywood screen writers license there.

 

[Upstater]

In this situation as I have read it, it is not clear wether the op had his gun already on or did he put it on to go and greet the deputy? Regardless of this IMO if carrying the gun openly is legal there really should not have been all these demands for unarming, especially if the gun was already holstered. If by all accounts in this thread carrying a gun on one's belt is the norm in Arizona, it probably would have been more suspicious if one was not seen.

 

[orionengnr]

Quote:
Posted by Salmoneye: And we are back to the fact that the LEO should have called in the plate, found the car belonged at that address, and driven off...

You are making an assumption about what the officer was investigating, and why.

No...I am making the (perhaps outdated) assumption that an LEO will exercise reasonable judgement, and will have knowledge of the laws...and will act accordingly.

When this does not happen, I am falling back on the antiquated notions of what we used to call "checks and balances" and "accountablility".

God help us all. Guess I'll just take my copy of the Constitution and crawl into a hole and die now.

 

[blarby]

GS, this is getting kinda ridiculous.

The first one was worse.

This one is really bad.

You need to get in contact with a superior out there and figure out what is going on before something even worse happens.

Bring up both cases.

Get documentation.

Make copies, and forward them if you have one to your legal consul.

Something here is fishy.... and not in a tasty fishstick kinda way. Repetitive coincidences like these on your property are not what you want happening.

 

[armoredman]

No one said that, but it is pretty stupid to approach a uniformed cop investigating something they deem suspicious with a gun

From the OP,

I went back inside and then came back out 15 or 20 minutes later only to find a sherriff standing on my property looking at my car, both were about 25 yds. away.

From this he is supposed to deduce an LEO is "investigating something suspcious? Maybe she wanted to buy the thing. I've known officers to buy things on duty before.

Maybe you should just tell the police not to investigate any activity at your place then, because you obviously "have it handled and under control"

Please cite chapter and verse where I said that, since you like demanding cites.
No, never mind, just go on about your business in Florida, and yes, we are on the front line of an invasion about which I have a sneaking suspicion I might know more about than you...could be wrong, been wrong before, just ask my wife.
But, because this is going south quickly, I will bow out of this "discussion" as a lost cause.

 

[Frank Ettin]

On that note, I'd say this has gone about as far as it can go before falling completely apart.