Shipping a pistol questions

[Magoo]

There may have been a better place to post this, but I'm not looking for legal advice with these questions.

I am considering putting a pistol up for sale and was wondering what buyers preferred to see regarding shipping. Is it best to just say "we'll work out shipping once you agree to buy", go all the way over to "my FFL to your FFL", or somewhere in between? Going the FFL route adds $25 on my end that I'd of course just pass on to the buyer. But not having shipped guns I really don't know what the total cost difference is between my shipping overnight vs. an FFL's ability to ship USPS ground. If anyone has some $ figures I'd love to hear them.

I'm not looking to make money off of the shipping, but I don't want shipping to eat into the "profit" from selling the pistol either. I want to make this clear to potential buyers and would ideally like them to decide how much they'd like to pay for their preferred method.

Further, would you be willing to pay a bit more for shipping if the pistol was in a Pelican case? It currently lives in one and shipping a ~$2K pistol in much less frankly worries me a bit. I got a deal on several Pelicans so I'm not really even considering it in my pricing of the pistol.

Thanks for any thoughts.

 

[dogtown tom]

Magoo .......I am considering putting a pistol up for sale and was wondering what buyers preferred to see regarding shipping. Is it best to just say "we'll work out shipping once you agree to buy", go all the way over to "my FFL to your FFL", or somewhere in between?

If the shipping fee is not clearly stated would you bid or offer to buy? I wouldn't. IMHO the shipping price should be stated from the getgo.
Read this for more info on shipping firearms:http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=651375

Going the FFL route adds $25 on my end that I'd of course just pass on to the buyer. But not having shipped guns I really don't know what the total cost difference is between my shipping overnight vs. an FFL's ability to ship USPS ground. If anyone has some $ figures I'd love to hear them.

Find a cheaper dealer to do business with.
While you can legally ship a firearm to any FFL, some refuse to receive from nonlicensees........so its a good idea to state "buyers dealer must be willing to accept from a nonlicensee".

Both UPS and FedEx require expensive levels of service (Next Day/Overnight). Licensed dealers and manufacturers can use the USPS to mail handguns for MUCH less than UPS/FedEx.

Further, would you be willing to pay a bit more for shipping if the pistol was in a Pelican case? It currently lives in one and shipping a ~$2K pistol in much less frankly worries me a bit.

Bravo! I love this attitude! Waaaaay to often I do a transfer for a $2000 gun packaged like you would wrap a fish. A Pelican case may be overkill, but there are inexpensive plastic hard cases for under $10 that are perfect for shipping a handgun.

 

[Magoo]

Thanks Tom. I swear I did a search, but I didn't find your perfect thread. I knew the answers were on here somewhere, but wouldn't have guessed they'd all be packaged so well and concisely.

It's the "buyer's FFL must accept shipment from a non-FFL" issue that concerned me. Do most FFLs accept shipments from non-FFL holders? I'd assumed, likely incorrectly, that most/many would not and that would turn off buyers. Regardless, since this is a handgun it'd be spendy for me to ship overnight with a non USPS carrier.

I've got a cheap-o plastic hard case I could use and found one of the USPS medium flat rate boxes that it'll fit into for an FFL to ship for me. If the buyer wants the Pelican, I can just ship it separately and empty.

So it seems the best route would be to just add ~$50 to the sale price and say "shipping to your FFL included". If I can find a local FFL to help me for less than $25 I'll make a few extra bucks or lose a few if I can't, but it seems like a fair no-profit price adjustment.

 

[newfalguy101]

Personally I never even consider a purchase without knowing the TOTAL price.

I often see " actual shipping", which doesnt really mean much of anything to me.

When I make an offer, my offer ALWAYS includes shipping.

Nothing wrong with shipping in a hardcase, however, I wouldnt pay extra for it, and I dont ship in cases, I am a huge fan of bubblewrap.

 

[BemidjiDweller]

As to the FFL01 shipping with USPS, I recently shipped a P-64 to WI via my LGS. They charged me $6.xx. I'm going to talk to their postal guy next time both of us are there at the same time. See if he will accept firearm packages from me and my FFL03.

 

[dogtown tom]

BemidjiDweller ....I'm going to talk to their postal guy next time both of us are there at the same time. See if he will accept firearm packages from me and my FFL03.

No matter what "their postal guy" says.....you would be committing a federal crime if you mail a handgun. USPS regulations are absolutely perfectly clear......only licensed dealers and manufacturers may mail firearms other than rifles and shotguns. USPS regs do not use the term "FFL".

 

[mnrivrat]

Some FFL dealers will serve as a shipping only service. They do not act as a transfer agent.

Since they can ship USPS the one I use charges a flat $30 to package and ship (not transfer) a handgun. The transfer is still between you and the receiving FFL .

Most FFL's will receive from a private party. It is perfectly legal and all you have to do is send a copy of your driver license for their aqisition records.

 

[dogtown tom]

mnrivrat Some FFL dealers will serve as a shipping only service. They do not act as a transfer agent.

Since they can ship USPS the one I use charges a flat $30 to package and ship (not transfer) a handgun. The transfer is still between you and the receiving FFL .

You're kidding, right?
What you describe above is a serious violation of ATF regulations.

ANYTIME, ANYTIME, ANYTIME a dealer accepts a firearm from a nonlicensee in order to ship it.......it is most definitely a firearm transfer. Federal law REQUIRES the dealer to record both the aquisition as well as the disposition of that firearm.

Nothing in ATF regulations mention "shipping only service", but DO have quite a bit to say about the recordkeeping requirements.

Your dealer is one package away from losing his FFL.

 

[Al Thompson]

Tom, what if the FFL ships it back to the factory or to a gunsmith? Mine is certainly cheaper to deal with than UPS or Fedx.

 

[dogtown tom]

Al Thompson Tom, what if the FFL ships it back to the factory or to a gunsmith? Mine is certainly cheaper to deal with than UPS or Fedx.

Sure he can....he justs logs it in as an aquisition from Al Thompson and then logs it out as a disposition to the manufacturer or another licensee.

 

[mnrivrat]

You're kidding, right?

No not kidding. Perhaps you are correct and perhaps not.

A dealer does not have to take position and log a firearm iinto his books just to do something with it. There is a window to work with that sets a time before it needs to be loged in. Just becasue they package it and run it to the post office for someone does not mean they are taking position . If you hand your gun to the salesman to look at, and evalluate, does that mean he has to have you fill out a 4473 to give it back to you ?

Like I said - Perhaps your correct but I know this service is being done so I will hold judgement for someone to point out the rule of law that applies here.

 

[dogtown tom]

mnrivrat

Quote:
You're kidding, right?

No not kidding. Perhaps you are correct and perhaps not.

A dealer does not have to take position and log a firearm iinto his books just to do something with it. There is a window to work with that sets a time before it needs to be loged in.

Possession, not position.
The ONLY time a licensee is NOT required to record an aquisiton? Gunsmithing while the customer waits or if returned same day, is not required to be logged into the bound book.

But THAT isn't the matter at hand.......

ATF regulations CLEARLY state that the dealer has to log firearm aquisitions......and it is by close of business the next day. Where in the ATF regulations does it say the dealer gets to ignore his recordkeeping when shipping a firearm? I'll save you the trouble.....it doesn't.

Just becasue they package it and run it to the post office for someone does not mean they are taking position .

You are 100% wrong sir.

If you hand your gun to the salesman to look at, and evalluate, does that mean he has to have you fill out a 4473 to give it back to you ?

Not if you get it back the same day. If you go back the next day you'll have to complete a 4473 and NICS.

Like I said - Perhaps your correct but I know this service is being done so I will hold judgement for someone to point out the rule of law that applies here.

Here is the rule of law: (see 478.125 (e) )
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&rgn=div5&view=text&node=27:3.0.1.2.3&idno=27






.

 

[mnrivrat]

ATF regulations CLEARLY state that the dealer has to log firearm aquisitions......and it is by close of business the next day. Where in the ATF regulations does it say the dealer gets to ignore his recordkeeping when shipping a firearm? I'll save you the trouble.....it doesn't.

Find in the regulations where if a dealer simply mails a firearm that it has to be his . I won't save you the trouble by expressing opinion - look for it !

The question at hand is if mailing the package means the dealer has aquired the gun. If he holds it for to long a period (as I previously mentioned) then the answer is yes. If he is simply handling it then no , he has not aquired it. So where does the line fall. You have your opinion - I am not sure you are correct.

 

[dogtown tom]

mnrivrat Find in the regulations where if a dealer simply mails a firearm that it has to be his . I won't save you the trouble by expressing opinion - look for it !

Sorry, you either failed to read 478.125 (e) or just can't grasp what it means.
Any firearm that is in the dealers possession must be recorded in his bound book per 478.125 (e). It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure put that he has possession when he's driving to the post office with your gun in a box next to him. When he arrives at the post office he will hand the clerk a Form 1508 "Statement by Shipper of Firearms"http://about.usps.com/forms/ps1508.pdfwhich is required of dealers and manufacturers anytime we are shipping a firearm other than a rifle or shotgun. Dealers are certifying under penalty of law that the firearm shipment is being shipped by the dealer (not their fishing buddy) to another dealer or manufacturer.

Furthur, if the firearm is ever traced and it the recepient tells ATF that he received the firearm from mnrivrat's dealer.......who doesn't have the gun in his records...

Doubt me? Fine, it's not my butt in violation of Federal law. While you may disagree, just ask any other dealer on this forum if the dealer is in possession when he's been given a firearm for shipment. Better yet, call your local ATF office.....they'll be real interested in a dealer not recording that information.

The question at hand is if mailing the package means the dealer has aquired the gun. If he holds it for to long a period (as I previously mentioned) then the answer is yes. If he is simply handling it then no , he has not aquired it. So where does the line fall. You have your opinion - I am not sure you are correct.

I posted a link to the ATF regs....it would difficult to interpret the regs any different than I have. Remember this......if you drop off a firearm at your local dealer, and ATF comes a knocking five minutes later......what will they think when they find a gun on premises that isn't recorded in his bound book? The "Uh I'm just mailing that for my friend, I'm not really in possession even though its sitting in my shop" excuse will be epic.

 

[Captcurt]

I gave up using the Post Office. Everytime I go in it is a PITA. It may cost a little more but at least Fedex comes to me, and without any hassel. USPS can go broke for all I care.

As for logging shipments in the A&D Book, If it comes in or goes out of my shop it gets logged. Then I don't have to worry about it.

 

[mnrivrat]

Remember this......if you drop off a firearm at your local dealer, and ATF comes a knocking five minutes later......what will they think when they find a gun on premises that isn't recorded in his bound book?

And you imply that is a problem after saying this :

ATF regulations CLEARLY state that the dealer has to log firearm aquisitions......and it is by close of business the next day.

Which is it ? By end of next business day , or 5 minutes ?

Sorry I am having troble following your interprutation of things. As I stated you may be correct but everything you said so far is an assumtion that the dealer has possession. But like I pointed out above and before with.

The question at hand is if mailing the package means the dealer has aquired the gun. If he holds it for to long a period (as I previously mentioned) then the answer is yes. If he is simply handling it then no , he has not aquired it. So where does the line fall.

The form for postal shipping is not a BATF rule. It is a postal regulation.

Dealers are certifying under penalty of law that the firearm shipment is being shipped by the dealer

The dealer is shipping it - what part indicates it has to be his gun ?

 

[BemidjiDweller]

dogtown tom, show me where I said I was going to try and ship a handgun via USPS. Next time try and keep from putting words in my mouth, it is rude.

 

[kanook]

Today 12:32 AM
BemidjiDweller dogtown tom, show me where I said I was going to try and ship a handgun via USPS. Next time try and keep from putting words in my mouth, it is rude.

October 9, 2012 09:42 PM
BemidjiDweller As to the FFL01 shipping with USPS, I recently shipped a P-64 to WI via my LGS. They charged me $6.xx. I'm going to talk to their postal guy next time both of us are there at the same time. See if he will accept firearm packages from me and my FFL03.

It looks like the last 12 words in your quote from October 9th are where you imply that you are going to ship using USPS

 

[SSN Vet]

I pay my "kitchen table" FFL $10 to fill out the cheesy form at the PO and then pay the normal postage rate.

Be prepared for the PO clerk to have no clue and to give you some "special" requirements (i.e. ones they made up, like... "you can't ship a magazine wih the pistol").

I print the requirements from the USPS and take them with me to the PO, just in case I need to "educate" someone on how to do their job.

 

[dogtown tom]

mnrivrat
Which is it ? By end of next business day , or 5 minutes ?

As stated ad naseum, the dealer has until the end of the next business day to log the aquisition into his bound book. Failure to log the aquisition at all (your dealer) is a violation of ATF regulations.
Clear?

Sorry I am having troble following your interprutation of things. As I stated you may be correct but everything you said so far is an assumtion that the dealer has possession. But like I pointed out above and before with.

Still have not read those regs have you?

The dealer is shipping it - what part indicates it has to be his gun ?

The firearm is NEVER "his gun".....the dealer does not own the firearm. If he is in possession he needs to log it.

BemidjiDweller dogtown tom, show me where I said I was going to try and ship a handgun via USPS. Next time try and keep from putting words in my mouth, it is rude.

I didn't "put words in your mouth"......you WROTE them fella!

BemidjiDweller As to the FFL01 shipping with USPS, I recently shipped a P-64 to WI via my LGS. They charged me $6.xx. I'm going to talk to their postal guy next time both of us are there at the same time. See if he will accept firearm packages from me and my FFL03.

Being that USPS will accept shipments of rifles and shotguns FROM ANYONE....not just licensees.
Being that this thread is about shipping handguns.
Being that you posted about previously shipping a hangun through a LGS.
Being that you state the NEXT TIME you are going to talk to the "postal guy"

It's not putting words in your mouth to draw a conclusion that you want to use your 03FFL to ship a handgun via USPS yourself.
Unbelievable.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Not if you get it back the same day. If you go back the next day you'll have to complete a 4473 and NICS.

Respectfully, Tom, you are wrong on this one. It does not matter how long the FFL has the firearm. If the FFL is returning the firearm to the original owner who gave them the firearm for repairs only, they can return that firearm to the original owner without a form 4473 or NICS check.

For example, customer sends the firearm to a manufacturer for repair. Manufacturer takes six to eight weeks to accomplish the repair. The manufacturer can return the same firearm, and even a replacement firearm, directly to the customer's door with no form 4473 or NICS check required.

I have done that very thing with Thompson Center, got my handgun back delivered directly to my door several weeks after I sent it to them.

My wife did almost the same thing. Took her Taurus back to Sportsman's Warehouse for them to mail to Taurus for repair. Taurus returned her gun to Sprortsman's Warehouse several weeks later. She picks up the gun with no form 4473 and no NICS check, AND on top of all that, she was not even a resident of the same state the Sportsman's Wareshouse was in!

There is no time limit mentioned in 27 CFR 478.124:

§ 478.124 Firearms transaction record.
(a) A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer,
or licensed dealer shall not sell or
otherwise dispose, temporarily or permanently,
of any firearm to any person, other
than another licensee, unless the licensee
records the transaction on a firearms
transaction record, Form 4473: Provided,
That a firearms transaction record, Form
4473, shall not be required to record the
disposition made of a firearm delivered to
a licensee for the sole purpose of repair or
customizing when such firearm or a replacement
firearm is returned to the person
from whom received.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Obviously, returning a firearm to the original owner IS a completely SEPARATE and non-related issue than sending the gun to another FFL during an actual transfer of ownership.

 

[mgkdrgn]

I gave up using the Post Office. Everytime I go in it is a PITA. It may cost a little more but at least Fedex comes to me, and without any hassel. USPS can go broke for all I care.

As for logging shipments in the A&D Book, If it comes in or goes out of my shop it gets logged. Then I don't have to worry about it.

Why go in? My regular carrier picks up my handgun shipments, no problmeo.

And yes, I log everything that comes in/out as well, even if it is only a shipping service.

 

[mgkdrgn]

Tom, what if the FFL ships it back to the factory or to a gunsmith? Mine is certainly cheaper to deal with than UPS or Fedx.

Why, thank you Al (assuming you mean ME!)

 

[dogtown tom]

NavyLCDR

Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
Not if you get it back the same day. If you go back the next day you'll have to complete a 4473 and NICS.

Respectfully, Tom, you are wrong on this one. It does not matter how long the FFL has the firearm. If the FFL is returning the firearm to the original owner who gave them the firearm for repairs only, they can return that firearm to the original owner without a form 4473 or NICS check.

Not exactly.

minrivits question was about handing the "gun to the salesman to look at, and evalluate, does that mean he has to have you fill out a 4473 to give it back to you ?"

If mnrivit hands his firearm to the dealer for "gunsmithing"....no 4473 is required.
If he turns the gun over to the dealer for any other reason (such as appraisel, consignment sale, etc)....a 4473 & NICS is required.
Obviously, there is a difference (at least to me and other dealers) that the mere act of the dealer touching, fondling, and holding your firearm while you are across the counter IS NOT possession which would require logging the firearm. If you leave the premises with the gun in the dealers hands its another story.