Steel Horse Rider
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Blarby: How old are you and what do you expect to die from?
Shooting and Blood Lead Levels
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Panzerschwein
member
It's not just that. Lead deposits in the body can and will lead to severe neurological problems, long before death. It's nasty stuff.
blarby
Member
While an awfully personal and direct question, I believe it deserves a frank and honest answer.
Im 37, and I completely expect to die from a combination of degenerative neurological disease and red tape.
Steel Horse Rider
Member
Yeah, Red Tape will get us all! :banghead:
I was not trying to get personal, it usually helps to understand a person's perspective if you know from which direction they are observing.
I was not trying to get personal, it usually helps to understand a person's perspective if you know from which direction they are observing.
I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I'm going to post what I feel is prudent for me:
1. Avoid touching stuff you don't have to until you have cleaned up. This is especially true of food, drink, cigarettes, gum, etc. but also goes for items in vehicle, phone, wallet, etc.
2. Outdoor ranges are better than indoor ranges, though I am forced to use indoor ranges usually. If you can, pay attention to how fast smoke is evacuated. If one range evacuates the smoke much faster than the other, then they probably have better airflow.
3. Wash face/hands and rinse out mouth with water after shooting. Blowing nose probably wouldn't hurt (airborne particles can get stuck in snot). When washing hands give adequate time for soap and water to dissolve lead. Use paper towel to dry and also scrape away any remaining lead.
4. Change clothes and shower after shooting. I use old pairs of shoes, coats, etc. that I don't normally wear as well since these items are harder to launder.
5. Don't sweep up range brass. This will push residue back into the air, where it can be breathed in. A good range should have an employee that gets lead checks do this with proper PPE on after hours.
6. I'm not a doctor, but I believe if you have low levels of certain minerals your body will use lead as a replacement for these minerals i.e. it will incorporate lead into your bones if you lack calcium. As such, I try to take multivitamins a few days in advance of going shooting. If someone more knowledgeable about this knows more, I'd be interested.
Finally, lead affects kids more than it does adults. Make sure kids follow the rules and I'd personally avoid indoor ranges until they are a bit older.
1. Avoid touching stuff you don't have to until you have cleaned up. This is especially true of food, drink, cigarettes, gum, etc. but also goes for items in vehicle, phone, wallet, etc.
2. Outdoor ranges are better than indoor ranges, though I am forced to use indoor ranges usually. If you can, pay attention to how fast smoke is evacuated. If one range evacuates the smoke much faster than the other, then they probably have better airflow.
3. Wash face/hands and rinse out mouth with water after shooting. Blowing nose probably wouldn't hurt (airborne particles can get stuck in snot). When washing hands give adequate time for soap and water to dissolve lead. Use paper towel to dry and also scrape away any remaining lead.
4. Change clothes and shower after shooting. I use old pairs of shoes, coats, etc. that I don't normally wear as well since these items are harder to launder.
5. Don't sweep up range brass. This will push residue back into the air, where it can be breathed in. A good range should have an employee that gets lead checks do this with proper PPE on after hours.
6. I'm not a doctor, but I believe if you have low levels of certain minerals your body will use lead as a replacement for these minerals i.e. it will incorporate lead into your bones if you lack calcium. As such, I try to take multivitamins a few days in advance of going shooting. If someone more knowledgeable about this knows more, I'd be interested.
Finally, lead affects kids more than it does adults. Make sure kids follow the rules and I'd personally avoid indoor ranges until they are a bit older.
blarby
Member
Some of us are more prone to red-tape in the form of Theology restricted medical research solutions to our problems, but ultimately yes.
In my case, I can't really afford any additional stressors of the central nervous system, and for some reason, my body holds on to lead like suppliers are holding on to 22LR - Tightly. For some reason I don't flush lead like everybody else does, and apparently, i'm not alone.
Schwing
Member
No you are not alone in this. Any time this issue comes up in one of these threads and I share my experience, the mantras fly:
1. "You must be getting it somewhere else"
2. "You must be doing something wrong"
3. "Basic hygiene is all you need. If you are too high, see #2"
Like you, I seem to absorb every molecule of lead I come into contact with. I take extreme precautions (Lead/asbestos mask anytime I handle or shoot lead, gloves, long sleeves, a hat and showering immediately after any lead contact) and still run on the high side. NO, I DON'T EAT DRINK OR SMOKE AT THE RANGE. NO, I DON'T PICK MY NOSE... etc.
Still participating in the hobby, despite this, is a personal choice. It may not be very healthy or even smart. The problem I have is that I am a highly stressful person. Shooting and reloading has done more to alleviate that problem than anything else.
I resigned myself last year that I was going to do 100% whatever was in my sphere of influence to reduce my exposure in the form of safety precautions and continue doing it. For me... I might die of lead issues at some point but I KNOW I will die of a heart attack or something along those lines if I stress out about it.
CapnMac
Member
Unsaid in this is that other variable: smoking.
And, that's all it is, a variable. Ok, one that causes changes in tissue and the like (hard to see the blue lines on nicotine-yellowed fingers and all). But, the habits with smoking are not helping either. I've seen people at the range sweep empty brass into a dustbin, then a collection can, and light up a smoke practically all in the same motion.
But, it's just a variable.
The changes since the 70s have been dramatic. Almost no lead in fuel anymore; lead in house paint is hugely regulated; smoking has decreased about 75%; and the regulators continue to reduce "maximum" exposure levels.
Be careful out there, people.
And, that's all it is, a variable. Ok, one that causes changes in tissue and the like (hard to see the blue lines on nicotine-yellowed fingers and all). But, the habits with smoking are not helping either. I've seen people at the range sweep empty brass into a dustbin, then a collection can, and light up a smoke practically all in the same motion.
But, it's just a variable.
The changes since the 70s have been dramatic. Almost no lead in fuel anymore; lead in house paint is hugely regulated; smoking has decreased about 75%; and the regulators continue to reduce "maximum" exposure levels.
Be careful out there, people.
FYI: Baby Wipes are a great substitute for cleaning your hands after shooting. I can't remember where I heard it but I seem to remember someone advising shooters NOT to use hand sanitizer (alcohol based) after shooting. The alcohol promotes absorption of lead through the skin. It may have been the same person that recommended Baby Wipes.
If this is B.S. (about the hand sanitizer) I apologize for passing along bad info.
If this is B.S. (about the hand sanitizer) I apologize for passing along bad info.
Gtscotty
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I don't shoot indoors very often, and when I do it's jacketed bullets out of rifles with the barrel out of the window in a shooting house. I'm not terribly concerned about my lead levels, but I have an 8 month old son, and I'm paranoid about any possible way he might be exposed. I don't cast or anything like that, but I do reload in the garage, and I sometimes wonder if any lead or lead compounds are being tracked into the house in notable quantities. I wear gloves and wash my hands immediately after coming inside, but threads like this make me nervous. I wonder if there is something else I should be doing as well.
blarby
Member
Swab a moist rag on the doorknob of your garage.
Stick a lead test strip into that rag, and grip tight. Wait for the results.
Stick a lead test strip into that rag, and grip tight. Wait for the results.
jcwit
member
In my personal case, Ive been casting since the 1960's, much of done indoors, reloading also.
I have my heavy metal count tested yearly or mo often, depends who often the VA does blood tests.
My lead have never been over 6 to my knowledge.
When I was a kid 12 and younger, I carried my pellets in my mouth.
A few years ago I did much of my shooting at an indoor range.
I'm now 72 and diabetic, suffering from kidney failure because of being diabetic.
My lead counts are the least of my concerns.
I am a cancer survivor.
In my early teens I survived polio.
I have my heavy metal count tested yearly or mo often, depends who often the VA does blood tests.
My lead have never been over 6 to my knowledge.
When I was a kid 12 and younger, I carried my pellets in my mouth.
A few years ago I did much of my shooting at an indoor range.
I'm now 72 and diabetic, suffering from kidney failure because of being diabetic.
My lead counts are the least of my concerns.
I am a cancer survivor.
In my early teens I survived polio.
OilyPablo
Member
I work with molten eutectic Sn/Pb solder almost every day 4 days a week. Not close contact daily necessarily, but near. I have since 1981 or so. Multiple trips to China.
I handle imported metal and plastic parts from countries that use lead in many industries. Almost every day.
I shoot a decent amount. I reload. I am very careful with primers and my depriming setup and clean up go right in the stainless can.
I grew up in OC Southern California during leaded gas in the heyday. We had all sorts of gas powered items and freeways and streets of all sizes.
Through all the last 20-30 years of shooting and such I practice safe touching methods. And only 4 years of this was I an indoor shooter. I use lead wipes and soaps. I don't wear shooting shoes even in my shop. I even wipe down my steering wheel and shifter knob. Usually shoot in the AM and straight in the shower.
Test every other year and I have never broken 10. But I take this blood level with a grain of salt, statistical sampling and all.
I do have a question: Hot water or cold for washing hands?
I handle imported metal and plastic parts from countries that use lead in many industries. Almost every day.
I shoot a decent amount. I reload. I am very careful with primers and my depriming setup and clean up go right in the stainless can.
I grew up in OC Southern California during leaded gas in the heyday. We had all sorts of gas powered items and freeways and streets of all sizes.
Through all the last 20-30 years of shooting and such I practice safe touching methods. And only 4 years of this was I an indoor shooter. I use lead wipes and soaps. I don't wear shooting shoes even in my shop. I even wipe down my steering wheel and shifter knob. Usually shoot in the AM and straight in the shower.
Test every other year and I have never broken 10. But I take this blood level with a grain of salt, statistical sampling and all.
I do have a question: Hot water or cold for washing hands?
Schwing
Member
There is debate even among "Professionals" as to whether lead can be absorbed through the hands. The train of thought is that you wash with cold water to prevent the pores on your hands from opening up to allow more absorption.
Personally, I just wash first with cold soapy water and then follow up with hot water and more soap.
Since I wear gloves, it is just another step in the process
OilyPablo
Member
Oh they are trying.
jmorris
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I used to shoot indoor matches once a week, one of the girls tested high for lead and that caused all of us other "regulars" to get checked out as well. All of us were high I was at 16 myself.
I have only shot a hand full of indoor matches in the last decade but still reload, cast and shoot often and I am under 10 now but have to remind my doctor to check lead every year when they take blood for all the other tests they run.
I have only shot a hand full of indoor matches in the last decade but still reload, cast and shoot often and I am under 10 now but have to remind my doctor to check lead every year when they take blood for all the other tests they run.
cold
jcwit
member
Heck, I was radioactive back in the 1950's.
Not real sure but I'm guessing eating charbroiled stakes off the grill is unsafe also. Causes cancer.
Don't eat hot dogs, causes cholesterol.
Didn't they have a song about all this once? Sign, sign, everywhere a sign.
Not real sure but I'm guessing eating charbroiled stakes off the grill is unsafe also. Causes cancer.
Don't eat hot dogs, causes cholesterol.
Didn't they have a song about all this once? Sign, sign, everywhere a sign.
blarby
Member
As happens in every single thread discussing lead sensitivity, we know that you not only stir 22LR into your cereal, but have lead rimmed water glasses, and filter your orange juice through lead infusing mesh.
The reality is that everyones biology is a little different. You're one of those indestructiible monsters who is not only irradiated, but can sip lead and MEK tea with no ill effect.
Quite the exception, certainly not the norm.
The fact that there are real, tangible risks involved with certain materials that we can detect now doesn't mean they didn't exist back when you guys were huffing asbestos in the 60's, it just means we can actually prevent some of the problems with exposure that plague our hobbies.
I'm really happy that you're bullet proof, but derailing every one of these threads because you personally are immune doesn't help those of us that aren't.
Trying to say that there is no exposure risk is just false. Attempting to paint heavy metals with an "all clear" brush is also, false.
I'm not trying to start a wizzing match, but your assertion that heavy metal exposure poses no risks, continually, does people searching with us a disservice.
jcwit
member
My assertion is that most anything poses a risk to some extent.
We now have the ability to measure any element in such small amounts that we can find something a risk even tho the risk is also so small to likely be close to none exsistant. Remember all those kids chewing the paint from the windowsill? Those were the very folks who put a man on the moon.
Remember also we were the ones that played with mercury "with our bare hands no less" to no seeable ill effects BTW.
In my mind we have created a nation of folks who are scared of most everything, but heaven forbid don't get a flu shot, you got a chance of 1 in 20 million of getting a reaction.
Or don't get your kids vaccinated, causes autism, which as been proven false.
But hey, what do I know, I'm just a guy with a high school education who made a success out of life and lived thru it all. Dumb me!
I might add, I washed the lettering off plastic piping with a rag and bare hands using MEK, of all things. Liver still working, but at one time had some damage from heavy drinking, but it healed it's self back up.
Why isn't alcohol but on a hazardous list. Sure kills many more that inhaling lead dust! Or playing with mercury with bare hands!
We now have the ability to measure any element in such small amounts that we can find something a risk even tho the risk is also so small to likely be close to none exsistant. Remember all those kids chewing the paint from the windowsill? Those were the very folks who put a man on the moon.
Remember also we were the ones that played with mercury "with our bare hands no less" to no seeable ill effects BTW.
In my mind we have created a nation of folks who are scared of most everything, but heaven forbid don't get a flu shot, you got a chance of 1 in 20 million of getting a reaction.
Or don't get your kids vaccinated, causes autism, which as been proven false.
But hey, what do I know, I'm just a guy with a high school education who made a success out of life and lived thru it all. Dumb me!
I might add, I washed the lettering off plastic piping with a rag and bare hands using MEK, of all things. Liver still working, but at one time had some damage from heavy drinking, but it healed it's self back up.
Why isn't alcohol but on a hazardous list. Sure kills many more that inhaling lead dust! Or playing with mercury with bare hands!
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jmorris
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Made me remember way back when I was a kid I used to catch different critters and my Grandmother gave me a pretty good size bird cage to keep them in.
After more than a few deaths, my Father suggested I try a different cage and that was the solution, She had painted the cage with lead based paint.
At 83 my personal opinion is that good hygiene is enough. Wash your hands! It is my observation that casting and reloading are more apt to cause a problem with lead than shooting, even indoors. Just wash and when casting do so with a fresh air flow away from the pot. Common sense goes along way!
Coyote3855
Member
For the record, I am 71 and have been shooting for over 65 years. I recently had my first blood test for lead levels and scored 13.2. My doc is concerned but admits he is not a specialist and offered a referral. I am an NRA Certified Instructor so am regularly on indoor ranges, one of which allows lead bullets. 10 years ago, I competed regularly in IPSC matches, some of which had an indoor stage. I also was a SASS shooter for 10 years. I reloaded lead bullets for both sports, so I have no idea whether or not the accumulation is recent and associated with shooting/sweeping indoor ranges or is long term from reloading or using a tumbler to clean brass.
Yeah, I will probably die of something else but I use my seat belt, lock my doors, don't smoke, carry a handgun, eat well, keep my weight down, exercise regularly.
I'm curious about supplements and those who report that lead levels declined or at least fluctuated over time. At my doc's recommendation, I will have another test in 6 months. If lead level is stable, or hopefully declining, I will continue good hygiene and hope for the best. Perhaps let others sweep up after classes. Most of my shooting is outdoors, but instruction puts me at some risk even though I use the special lead soap and wipes after class, wash my shooting/teaching clothes separately, don't eat after shooting, etc. Then hope for the best.
Yeah, I will probably die of something else but I use my seat belt, lock my doors, don't smoke, carry a handgun, eat well, keep my weight down, exercise regularly.
I'm curious about supplements and those who report that lead levels declined or at least fluctuated over time. At my doc's recommendation, I will have another test in 6 months. If lead level is stable, or hopefully declining, I will continue good hygiene and hope for the best. Perhaps let others sweep up after classes. Most of my shooting is outdoors, but instruction puts me at some risk even though I use the special lead soap and wipes after class, wash my shooting/teaching clothes separately, don't eat after shooting, etc. Then hope for the best.
blarby
Member
Vitamin C, in combination with zinc and phosphorus has been shown to effectively assist with reducing lead levels.
https://www.lead.org.au/fs/Fact_sheet-Nutrients_that_reduce_lead_poisoning_June_2010.pdf
https://www.lead.org.au/fs/Fact_sheet-Nutrients_that_reduce_lead_poisoning_June_2010.pdf
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