DammitBoy
Member
How do we fight this anti-argument? I want stats, graphs, charts. Real data, not stories about how well your department qualified... :banghead:
Shooting proficiency of the average police officer
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How do we fight this anti-argument? I want stats, graphs, charts. Real data, not stories about how well your department qualified... :banghead:
Certaindeaf
member
So we should allow no one to drive because they crash in NASCAR or taxi drivers crash?
I know not nearly the same but hey.
I know not nearly the same but hey.
rocsteady
Member
Thought I could add something here as requested for actual training and courses of fire.
I am a federal uniformed police officer and as such am required to qualify four times a year with our sidearm (Glock 22, .40). We also carry the MP5 (10mm, as a lot of our work is in a city environment, many times indoors) and shotgun (870), although we only have to qualify once a year with either of them.
We do "fam-fire" (familiarization) with the M4 but not on a regular basis as only some of our officers work in areas where it is carried every day.
In a nutshell, we have four pistol courses that we fire, one involves 18 rounds from 25 yd line (6 prone, 3 strongside kneeling, 6 standing and 3 offside kneeling. Given a generous 1 min and 15 seconds)
Next string is running to the 15 yard line and firing two rounds in 6 seconds, followed by strings of 2 rounds in 3 seconds from the "low ready" position.
Then we run to 7 yard line and fire 12 rounds in 15 seconds. This stage includes a magazine change.
Final stage is moving to the 5 yard line, drawing and firing 5 rounds strong hand only, performing a reload, then 5 rounds with the offhand in 15 seconds.
Total of 50 rounds with a minimum score of 40/50 required to pass.
Very few people from other LE or military pass this course the first time through. Air marshals are an exception to that rule as their PQCs must be similar.
That course puts an emphasis on marksmanship compared to our newer course which starts at the 3 yard line and works its way back to the 25 with an emphasis on drawing from concealment or duty rig and getting shorter strings of fire off in much less time. However, one can obtain a passing score before getting any further away than the 15 yard line.
In response to that we will follow this course of fire with a 25 yard "marksmanship" course consisting of 10 rounds each from: prone, strongside kneeling, standing, off HAND kneeling and then 10 from the shooter's choice.
Finally, we will shoot a "bullseye" course which consists of 30 rounds with a max score of 300. Visitors or others taking our instructor courses can pass with a score of 230 but we have to score 260 to pass. The scoring rings are 10, 9, 8, and 7.
This course starts with 10 rounds in four minutes (PLENTY of time) from the 25 yard line.
Followed by 2 strings of 5 rounds in 15 seconds from the 15 and then 2 strings of 5 rounds in 10 seconds from the 15 yard line.
The bottom line for us is that you do have to be proficient to pass each course, you must practice on your own time to score perfectly or near perfectly on all quals and we do not get paid for our range time or ammo for any other days we choose to shoot.
I passed our two week firearms instructor course this year and in order for me to keep my shooting to the level I feel is necessary I shoot roughly 100-150 rounds a week from my sidearm and usually combine that with some "play" time with a personally owned AR15 that may see 400-500 rounds a month (cash flow permitting).
We try to get into as much outside training as the agency will pay for so that we get experience with more tactical situations that involve less static targets and more dynamic environments but most of our training is done "inhouse" with just our unit using sim rounds and/or airsoft.
I hope this is helpful toward the general idea of this thread.
-roc
I am a federal uniformed police officer and as such am required to qualify four times a year with our sidearm (Glock 22, .40). We also carry the MP5 (10mm, as a lot of our work is in a city environment, many times indoors) and shotgun (870), although we only have to qualify once a year with either of them.
We do "fam-fire" (familiarization) with the M4 but not on a regular basis as only some of our officers work in areas where it is carried every day.
In a nutshell, we have four pistol courses that we fire, one involves 18 rounds from 25 yd line (6 prone, 3 strongside kneeling, 6 standing and 3 offside kneeling. Given a generous 1 min and 15 seconds)
Next string is running to the 15 yard line and firing two rounds in 6 seconds, followed by strings of 2 rounds in 3 seconds from the "low ready" position.
Then we run to 7 yard line and fire 12 rounds in 15 seconds. This stage includes a magazine change.
Final stage is moving to the 5 yard line, drawing and firing 5 rounds strong hand only, performing a reload, then 5 rounds with the offhand in 15 seconds.
Total of 50 rounds with a minimum score of 40/50 required to pass.
Very few people from other LE or military pass this course the first time through. Air marshals are an exception to that rule as their PQCs must be similar.
That course puts an emphasis on marksmanship compared to our newer course which starts at the 3 yard line and works its way back to the 25 with an emphasis on drawing from concealment or duty rig and getting shorter strings of fire off in much less time. However, one can obtain a passing score before getting any further away than the 15 yard line.
In response to that we will follow this course of fire with a 25 yard "marksmanship" course consisting of 10 rounds each from: prone, strongside kneeling, standing, off HAND kneeling and then 10 from the shooter's choice.
Finally, we will shoot a "bullseye" course which consists of 30 rounds with a max score of 300. Visitors or others taking our instructor courses can pass with a score of 230 but we have to score 260 to pass. The scoring rings are 10, 9, 8, and 7.
This course starts with 10 rounds in four minutes (PLENTY of time) from the 25 yard line.
Followed by 2 strings of 5 rounds in 15 seconds from the 15 and then 2 strings of 5 rounds in 10 seconds from the 15 yard line.
The bottom line for us is that you do have to be proficient to pass each course, you must practice on your own time to score perfectly or near perfectly on all quals and we do not get paid for our range time or ammo for any other days we choose to shoot.
I passed our two week firearms instructor course this year and in order for me to keep my shooting to the level I feel is necessary I shoot roughly 100-150 rounds a week from my sidearm and usually combine that with some "play" time with a personally owned AR15 that may see 400-500 rounds a month (cash flow permitting).
We try to get into as much outside training as the agency will pay for so that we get experience with more tactical situations that involve less static targets and more dynamic environments but most of our training is done "inhouse" with just our unit using sim rounds and/or airsoft.
I hope this is helpful toward the general idea of this thread.
-roc
nickn10
Member
Also, I know nikn10 mentioned wanting to test hisself against a LEO qualification type shoot. Its kind of hard to test without having the pressure of losing your job if you fail. I do better shooting the same course with friends then I do putting my job on the line when I qualify. "
Thanks for the replies. My intention was to see how well "I" can shoot, not disparage the abilitiy of LEOs. I used to be much better but age and eyesight has diminished my proficiency. I've had a CC permit for 20 yrs. and if I can't perform with at least "better than average" I should relinquish that permit. I admit some of the qualifying tests stated here are beyond my ability physically (again, age and arthritis I'm 70), as I don't foresee me stepping into a running gun fight as some LEOs may encounter I'll exclude them from MY TEST. After what happened in Arvada I know as a former MP and armed escort correctional officer the training I received would help my mind set to attempt to take action. If I would be able to, under those circumstances still is undetermined. I can only hope I would be useful, thank you, Nick
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Well, good luck with that.
We all would like to see black and white, objective, definitive reports of defensive and police shootings, with unbiased statistical analysis to tell us what is working in training, gun selection, ammo selection, and which can somehow compare the value (and personal and social repercussions) of a gun in the hands of the untrained citizen defending him or herself with the uses of firearms in police duty.
But those numbers don't exist. There are bits and pieces of suspect data, all highly conflicting, scattered through various reports and studies by DOJ and other government agencies, as well as by individual researchers. But they don't seem to tell us what we want to know. (Or even what we want to HEAR!
)So it becomes tempting for any interested parties to an argument to cherry-pick some random statistic and claim it means something. This doesn't do much to convince US when the antis do it, and I doubt it will ever convince THEM when we do it, either.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
FWIW, here is the Federal Air Marshall qual course:
http://www.thegunzone.com/fam-lawman/fam-qual.html
http://dryfiretrainer.blogspot.com/2010/03/federal-air-marshal-tactical-pistol.html
http://www.thegunzone.com/fam-lawman/fam-qual.html
http://dryfiretrainer.blogspot.com/2010/03/federal-air-marshal-tactical-pistol.html
RandyC
Member
We're missing the fatal flaw in the man's original argument.
The expertise of the police has little to do with it. Even if the police are highly trained, it's of little value if they're not there.
What exactly does this man propose you should do for the five to ten minutes it'll take for his friendly police to arrive ( this presupposing the adversary will allow you to pull out your cell phone and make your 911 call)?
Does he expect you to tap dance and entertain a potential killer until the police arrive?
Armed people save themselves in potentially deadly circumstances almost daily. I would argue that a precious few of them have any training at all. And of those who have a carry permit, I would argue the same thing. Few have had more than the minimal training.
Advanced training is good and of course we advocate it. But the fact is, few have it and armed citizens have an admirable record in saving themselves without hurting innocents.
The expertise of the police has little to do with it. Even if the police are highly trained, it's of little value if they're not there.
What exactly does this man propose you should do for the five to ten minutes it'll take for his friendly police to arrive ( this presupposing the adversary will allow you to pull out your cell phone and make your 911 call)?
Does he expect you to tap dance and entertain a potential killer until the police arrive?
Armed people save themselves in potentially deadly circumstances almost daily. I would argue that a precious few of them have any training at all. And of those who have a carry permit, I would argue the same thing. Few have had more than the minimal training.
Advanced training is good and of course we advocate it. But the fact is, few have it and armed citizens have an admirable record in saving themselves without hurting innocents.
waterhouse
Member
When I go to the department range to practice, I see lots of cops who are excellent shots. It is usually the same general group of cops that are practicing. Same faces, every time. Just like with the rest of the population, the ones that practice often are better shots than the ones who just show up to qualify.
We count our actual scores, but only for bragging rights. The only thing that gets recorded on paper is a pass or fail. I was told that this started several years ago after an officer involved shooting. He had nearly perfect scores, and in the lawsuit that later followed it was suggested that someone that shot 100% should have been able to shoot the weapon the bad guy was holding. After that came up, they just stopped recording scores. At least that is the story they tell.
We count our actual scores, but only for bragging rights. The only thing that gets recorded on paper is a pass or fail. I was told that this started several years ago after an officer involved shooting. He had nearly perfect scores, and in the lawsuit that later followed it was suggested that someone that shot 100% should have been able to shoot the weapon the bad guy was holding. After that came up, they just stopped recording scores. At least that is the story they tell.
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DammitBoy
Member
What record? Where?
ny32182
Member
I wonder why all these police qual courses are based only on accuracy within a huge par time.
I feel the IDPA classifier (and specifically time+ scoring model) conveys a lot more information than the police quals described, which are basically a "bullseye" type contest given the par times.
I feel the IDPA classifier (and specifically time+ scoring model) conveys a lot more information than the police quals described, which are basically a "bullseye" type contest given the par times.
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Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Well, that's a good point. The Air Marshall course is very different and much closer to a very simple, relatively easy, version of something like the IDPA Classifier.
While any IDPA Sharpshooter or USPSA "C" shooter could ace it, it at least gets away from the "stand and fire", bullseye, PPC model.
While any IDPA Sharpshooter or USPSA "C" shooter could ace it, it at least gets away from the "stand and fire", bullseye, PPC model.
oh look.... another incident
http://www.woai.com/mostpopular/sto...ng-outside-school/6zTYMpy8pUOeyrbElEBOTQ.cspx
in addition to the one i mentioned earlier this week on page 1
http://www.wokv.com/news/news/local/customer-shoots-robber-dead/nRLjK/
http://www.woai.com/mostpopular/sto...ng-outside-school/6zTYMpy8pUOeyrbElEBOTQ.cspx
in addition to the one i mentioned earlier this week on page 1
http://www.wokv.com/news/news/local/customer-shoots-robber-dead/nRLjK/
waterhouse
Member
Our focuses mostly on draw time, at least on the closer stages. I think the first few rounds are 3 rounds in two seconds when the target turns, starting with hands in the interview position (around the breast bone) and drawing from a level 3 holster.
When we back up to the 25 yard line I think they give us an eternity, something like 8 second to draw and fire 3 rounds.
nickn10
Member
Also, I know nikn10 mentioned wanting to test hisself against a LEO qualification type shoot. Its kind of hard to test without having the pressure of losing your job if you fail. I do better shooting the same course with friends then I do putting my job on the line when I qualify. "
Thanks for the replies. My intention was to see how well "I" can shoot, not disparage the abilitiy of LEOs. I used to be much better but age and eyesight has diminished my proficiency. I've had a CC permit for 20 yrs. and if I can't perform with at least "better than average" I should relinquish that permit. I admit some of the qualifying tests stated here are beyond my ability physically (again, age and arthritis I'm 70), as I don't foresee me stepping into a running gun fight as some LEOs may encounter I'll exclude them from MY TEST. After what happened in Arvada I know as a former MP and armed escort correctional officer the training I received would help my mind set to attempt to take action. If I would be able to, under those circumstances still is undetermined. I can only hope I would be useful, thank you, Nick
[/IMG]
2 yds. 3 shots x 2 draw, hip shots,
5 yds. 2 body 1 head 2X,
7 yds. 3 X2 point shoot CM,
7 yds. 5 aimed CM 5 sec.,
10 yds. 5 aimed head, 10 sec.
15 yds 6 shots X 2 CM 10 sec. 1 @ 4 o'clock
20 yds.5 shots kneeling (ouch) 15 sec.The very bottom hole is from relaxing my grip anticipating the shot. duh!
25yds 5 shots behind barrier, the upper 3 in the 7 ring I held head high the next 2, 9 ring I dropped to a upper CM hold
Thanks for the replies. My intention was to see how well "I" can shoot, not disparage the abilitiy of LEOs. I used to be much better but age and eyesight has diminished my proficiency. I've had a CC permit for 20 yrs. and if I can't perform with at least "better than average" I should relinquish that permit. I admit some of the qualifying tests stated here are beyond my ability physically (again, age and arthritis I'm 70), as I don't foresee me stepping into a running gun fight as some LEOs may encounter I'll exclude them from MY TEST. After what happened in Arvada I know as a former MP and armed escort correctional officer the training I received would help my mind set to attempt to take action. If I would be able to, under those circumstances still is undetermined. I can only hope I would be useful, thank you, Nick
2 yds. 3 shots x 2 draw, hip shots,
5 yds. 2 body 1 head 2X,
7 yds. 3 X2 point shoot CM,
7 yds. 5 aimed CM 5 sec.,
10 yds. 5 aimed head, 10 sec.
15 yds 6 shots X 2 CM 10 sec. 1 @ 4 o'clock
20 yds.5 shots kneeling (ouch) 15 sec.The very bottom hole is from relaxing my grip anticipating the shot. duh!
25yds 5 shots behind barrier, the upper 3 in the 7 ring I held head high the next 2, 9 ring I dropped to a upper CM hold
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He started the argument off that he was not an anti. Then he went on to say that for home defense a shotgun with #4 buckshot was better.
Of course I shot a hole in that argument by saying buckshot won't be stopped by dry wall either and asked how he expected one to carry around a shotgun outside of the home. He never answered that, he merely restated that shooting a handgun in a potentially crowded area was not a good idea for civilians.
David E
Member
- Joined
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"Potentially crowded?" It's either crowded or it's not. And if it's crowded, it's not a good idea for anyone, including cops, to be shooting into it.
Buffalo Bore does:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/53...w-p-155-grain-jacketed-hollow-point-box-of-20
Product Information
NOTE: Buffalo Bore loads their ammunition with the highest quality components available to maximize the performance of the ammunition. This ammunition is safe to use in all 40 S&W chambered firearms with a fully supported chamber. Most Glock 40 S&W do not have a fully supported chamber do not use this ammunition in Glock 40 S&W or other unsupported chamber pistols. This ammunition is new production, non-corrosive, in boxer primed, reloadable brass cases.
Owner of Buffalo Bore Tim Sundles on Buffalo Bore Heavy 40 S&W +P Ammunition: All Buffalo Bore Heavy 40 S&W +P loads use flash suppressed powders that give high velocities at low pressures. Since over 90% of all human shootings in the USA happen in low light, we believe that flash suppressed powders are a potentially life saving advantage - you don't want to be blind after you fire one shot in a life threatening, high stress situation.
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The burdon of proof is on them. Not on you. They claim people's rights should be taken away because of what they might do, which is not legitimate to begin with, but ignoring that...
Ask them to show you the real data where licensed carriers have been a problem.
You can show them the real data that there are literally millions of licensed carriers in this country and there have been for decades. Then you can show them that licensed carriers hitting innocent people almost never happens. Suggest that if they disagree, they need to come up with this multitude of examples that surely exist.
The kind of argument you are looking to counter here is very very easy to handle. It's nothing more than people sitting around pontificating about what they think would happen when we have real world data and results that prove them completely wrong.
Certaindeaf
member
"The pressure of losing one's livelihood, retirement and a partridge in a pear treee is a pressure you can't replicate" was bandied.
It seems many here have said they've seen many of these folk shoot when not qualifying, ie "training/practicing" and it would seem that that (qualifying) would be some sort of incentive for people that carry a gun for a living to be able to at least meet the lowest common denominator to do their job.
I've seen the same thing.. some few guys and gals actually bother to have become or become good shots.. many others couldn't give a rip.. until the threat of the door is shown them. Then, they'll do the bare minimum to scrape by (remedial training) and then crow about it 'til next time.
Whatever, we all here know it's desirable to be able to hit when the time comes and that's why we've perhaps paid our dues and or practice.
It seems many here have said they've seen many of these folk shoot when not qualifying, ie "training/practicing" and it would seem that that (qualifying) would be some sort of incentive for people that carry a gun for a living to be able to at least meet the lowest common denominator to do their job.
I've seen the same thing.. some few guys and gals actually bother to have become or become good shots.. many others couldn't give a rip.. until the threat of the door is shown them. Then, they'll do the bare minimum to scrape by (remedial training) and then crow about it 'til next time.
Whatever, we all here know it's desirable to be able to hit when the time comes and that's why we've perhaps paid our dues and or practice.
Continuing with Warp's line of thinking, we've had at least two stories recently posted on THR of civilians shooting BGs to save cops. One was a 165-foot (or was it yard?) shot with a revolver on a man preparing to snipe the cops showing up to investigate the murder he'd just commited, and another is a man who shot an already-wounded man who was attacking a police officer.
It's ironic nowadays that the civilians are saving the cops, I grew up thinking it was supposed to work the other way around!
It's ironic nowadays that the civilians are saving the cops, I grew up thinking it was supposed to work the other way around!
Smokin Gator
Member
"I wonder why all these police qual courses are based only on accuracy within a huge par time."
Even if some depts. do time and score targets, it depends on what the definition of "timed and scored" is at each dept. If the only time factor is a generous par time and a hit anywhere in the black counts the same, that's a lot different than using scoring areas on the target and recording the time an officer took, then factoring both together to come up with a score.
At our small dept. it only matters how many hits you get on target, you get no credit for doing it faster. Not that they really keep track of the scores, it's simple pass or fail. Mark
Even if some depts. do time and score targets, it depends on what the definition of "timed and scored" is at each dept. If the only time factor is a generous par time and a hit anywhere in the black counts the same, that's a lot different than using scoring areas on the target and recording the time an officer took, then factoring both together to come up with a score.
At our small dept. it only matters how many hits you get on target, you get no credit for doing it faster. Not that they really keep track of the scores, it's simple pass or fail. Mark
St8LineGunsmith
Member.
that is one of the most idiotic things I ever heard
3 feet away is nothing short of a gut shot
the only way I can see someone missing the intended target fron that distance is if they are holding the pistol "gangsta" style
why would anyone think a highly trained non LEO would not be proficient enough to hit the intended target?
I cant seem to get my head around this dudes way of thinking
give me any hand gun, your choice and at three feet away I can hit the target without taking aim.
That isn't how it works at the PD in my area.
One of their stages is 1.5 seconds start to finish, starting from an 'interview' stance (hands in front of you, gun holstered).
Some of the other stages are more difficult to complete within the allotted time due to distance, movement, number of rounds, and reloads. The 10 yard line sequences being the most difficult.
rugerman
Member
From what I've seen there are cops who are good shots and some who aren't, just like in the civilian population. There are also those that are better with a handgun or a rifle or a shotgun than the other weapons, in BOTH populations. But in a situation where every second counts I want to be able to rely on my gun in my hand not the gun anyone else has that might or might not be there when needed.
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