Shooting under cars?

[Mikhail Konovalov]

Call this research. I'm a comic artist, and in one scene taking place inside a parking garage, a horde of two-gunning, ill-trained mafiosos pile out of a van and open fire on our hero, who returns fire with a 9mm buzzgun.

Many take refuge behind said van, and our friendly protagonist begins firing at the asphault under the van. For the sake of detail, the buzzgun in question is a Russian Bizon PP-19 in 9X19.

Would this be a sound tactic for covering a hasty exit? I'm thinking chips of concrete and bullet jacket shredding the baddie's ankles should keep them at bay for at least a few seconds.

Is this the right place to ask? Am I insane for thinking this could ever work? Did I get lucky?

I apologize in advance if this sort of question is not welcome here.

 

[Heavy Metal Hero]

I think it would be more effective to just shoot their ankles.

 

[Mikhail Konovalov]

Well, keep in mind our hero is on his feet and within 25 yards of the van. Unless he dropped down, the angles involved probably wouldn't allow shooting for the ankles, not to mention the fact that after the first burst, this guy's running like his pants are on fire.

The ankle shooting happens a few seconds earlier when our hero ducks a burst from an MP5K and ends up on his side with a Para P13-45 in hand and plenty of targets who aren't wise to his game yet.

 

[sacp81170a]

We actually do demonstrations during our tactical qualifications using junk vehicles. Bullets tend to skip when they hit a hard surface at an angle. That's why you should stay away from the walls of buildings, etc., when moving during a fire fight. We put a target on the opposite side of a car and skip bullets under the car and into the target. They usually hit the targets 4-6" above ground level. We also place targets in the "peeping over the hood" position and shoot at the hood or roof of the car at an angle. The bullets skip right into the target's "face" every time. We do this mainly to demonstrate that cars are not good cover. It's better to get prone behind a wheel and look around the corner of the bumper rather than looking over the hood of the vehicle. Better yet, find more substantial cover elsewhere.

In answer to your question, yes, it would be a good tactic.

 

[Ghost Tracker]

Jim Cirillo (of NYPD Stake-out Squad fame) did a video once of intentionally bouncing shots off concrete & asphalt and making Center-of-Mass hits on a low target. He was showing how STUPID the kneeling position was for a Street Cop. By the hero dropping the SMG (one handed, upside down) to the lowest possible firing-angle...the bounced ankle shot under a van is at least plausable.

 

[Mikhail Konovalov]

Those are excellent examples, thank you.

My quest for realism and believeability with my comic has yeilded some surprising, and sometimes disturbing information, but I believe this to be very important, as television, comics, and especially films have a long history of being unrealistic.

In truth, I'm uncomfortable asking these kinds of questions on a forum like this, but I know that here, I can get real answers.

I'll try to keep this to a minimum. I'm not about to ask anything so morbid as how to properly illustrate gunshot wounds (I think it's best I just guess there, not worth wasting someone who's been there's time, especially considering the emotions involved.), but as far as tactics are concerned, I do want to stay as true to life as possible.

 

[ceetee]

I think if I wanted to keep a "horde" of ill-trained bad guys thoughtful while I made a hasty retreat, numerous .45 slugs through the body panels and door panels of the van would be just as effective as skipping the slugs off the ground under the van.

 

[Mikhail Konovalov]

You know, I never even thought of that. Always figured shooting through cars was more of a rifle thing. (Heat.) Oh, and the "horde" is about ten strong.

I do have plenty of shooting through walls a little later on, but will a .45 ACP Gold Dot really cut through a car? (My characters are well-equipped!) If so, would the same strategy be effective with 9mm +P out of a subgun?

By the way, the whole reason he is lugging around an SMG under his London Fog is because he suspected a setup.

 

[CWL]

Skipping bullets under cars to hit BGs on the other side is a well-known tactic with certain police units.

The most famous incident where this was used was during the LA bank robbery shootout with the 2 armored BGs. Police skipped bullets under the car to hit the 2nd BG sheltering on the other side. It was these lower body wounds that incapacitated him (he eventually bled out and died from these injuries).

 

[Mikhail Konovalov]

Well, then. It appears my theory was well-founded. I would have been a prodigy fifty years ago, haha.

On a more serious note, though, I believe in researching a few of the more questionable aspects of ficticious gunplay. I know that a Commander up a goon's nose will do the job, but the more advanced stuff requires a bit of questioning. I am sincerely worried about offending the ruling parties of this forum with these questions, but it must be understood that while I do not condone machinegun fights and mob hits, I do want to portray them with the highest degree of accuracy possible. Real-world examples and testimonials from individuals who have done more than slow-fire on a paper target range are worth seeking.

 

[GigaBuist]

will a .45 ACP Gold Dot really cut through a car? (My characters are well-equipped!) If so, would the same strategy be effective with 9mm +P out of a subgun?

Well, depends on the car and where the rounds hit I suppose.

From the guys that brought us the Box o' Truth we have the Buick of Truth (Pistol Edition): http://theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot3_2.htm

Seems to be that the conclusion is if you shoot enough rounds at the passenger compartment eventually you'll get a few that pop right on through.

I've seen this happen myself. I'm not LE, but an old friend used an old car as a target holder for a while.

 

[CWL]

I know that a Commander up a goon's nose will do the job,

I wouldn't recommend this. By pressing your pistol into a BG, you may cause it to go out of battery and not fire at all. There are actually "standoff" devices available for mounting on the front of pistols so that they don't go out of battery in cast of contact-distance gunplay.

 

[Mikhail Konovalov]

See what I mean about the helpfulness?

That's good stuff right there. I knew about that one, but either way. Handy info.

 

[Iggy]

A 12 Guage #4 buck round skipped under a car will get their attention.. I use to teach that to HP recruits.. A Slug through the car was a bit more impressive, but sometimes you got to take what you can get...

 

[Deanimator]

I think it would be more effective to just shoot their ankles.

+1. I've actually given some thought to that, both in a literary and personal context.

 

[Mikhail Konovalov]

Oh yes, the shooting for the ankles bit is good, but seeing as how it was featured (Graphically, at that.) in Kill Bill, I wanted to try something else.

Points to whoever decided Bullet Tooth Tony could just shoot the baddies through the walls in Snatch.

Along with believeability, originality is also an important factor here. Already I have the necessary information to make this particular scene work, but there are many more questions to be answered, techniques to be critiqued, and tactics to be evaluated. Just wait till I get to the creative shotgun work in Part Two, haha.

All contributers have my sincere thanks.

 

[ceetee]

My favorite photo from that "Buick o' Truth" piece. You can see how the 9mm bullets exited the passenger door of the car, after being fired through the driver's side door. Imagine the holes that would have been made by the larger .45 slugs, with their greater momentum, and imagine being the guy that had been standing there.

Proof that unless you're real careful about where you stand, cars are concealment, not cover...

 

[Tokugawa]

According to John George, the Japanese used to sight thier Nambu's at knee hieght or lower, you are going to fall into the stream anyway.

 

[foghornl]

Not actually shooting under cars, but sometimes, bouncing say #5 or #6 bird shot off the pavement into the shins/ankles of various miscreants tends to perform well in "Riot/Crowd Control" situations.

 

[X-Rap]

I remember oddly from the mid 70s that my grandfather told me about his couisin who was high ranking FBI from Chicago I think. He said that they had done test with balloons and shotguns and it seemed that when buckshot was fired at an angle under a car the shot tumbled along the ground about 6" and would pop balloons. Odd that I remember but that is the word I got.

 

[AJAX22]

the bizon is produced in more substantial calibres... switch it to a 7.62x25 and it will punch through car doors and concealable body armour with no problem.

whatever you choose to use, all rounds can be skipped off concrete, watter, stone, steel, etc.

 

[The Wiry Irishman]

A few years ago myself and some of my gun buddies had the oppurtunity to shoot a junked car, and since most of us are engineering/technology students, we went nerdy and approached it scientifically. We found that a 22LR will have no problem going through a car door and burying itself in a seat, or opposite door (we never had one go all the way through) but anything larger will go right through. I think the smallest round we had available to us next to the .22 was from a Makarov. Sheet metal doesn't stop much, and its easy to penetrate. We were even getting birdshot through the hood/door. Only the chassis and engine block reliably stopped projectiles.

 

[ssfeldjager]

Use a lightsaber. You just can't go wrong with a good light saber. Runs on 4 'D' cell batteries, available from just about any store.

Instruction on how to build your own:
http://members.aol.com/yodashous2/building.htm

 

[ShackleMeNot]

Just shoot through the car.