Short Barrel Magic

[lizziedog1]

What are the magical properties of short barrel weapons, handguns if you will?

You read about the .30-30 Winchester rifle cartridge and the conclusion you reach is that you have a barely able, short range deer round. But only if you place the shot perfectly. The same exact caliber in a handgun is capable of taking moose across county lines.

The .300 Savage is usually described as a borderline moose round. Yet, a handgun in .44 magnum would be the ideal weapon to have in a Jurasic Park setting.

If you want to defeat Superman then use the 7.62x25mm. It is described as having penetration properties that can defeat all sorts of body armor. This is with an 86 grain bullet at near 1400 feet per second. If you had a bullet of 110 grains going at near 2000 feet per second you are shooting an M1 Carbine. A cartridge often described as one that bounces off naked flesh at twenty yards.

I am confused. There must seem other property that handguns possess that my simple mind can't grasp. Maybe someone here with more technical and scientific knowledge can teach me.

What is the magical proerty that handguns have that make them seemingly able to defy ballistic data?

 

[BADUNAME37]

In order to kill the animal with little suffering to the quarry, the shot must be accurate which, many times means a fairly close-range shot. I could kill a deer with a .22 Target Pistol, if the deer happened to pass right under my tree stand and a shot to the head from about eight feet would most likely drop him.

 

[lizziedog1]

if the deer happened to pass right under my tree stand and a shot to the head from about eight feet would most likely drop him.

But according to the experts, you'd be lucky to kill the deer armed with a 30-30 rifle. On the other hand, a 44 magnum revolver would do the trick if the animal was a T-Rex!

 

[bhk]

We have all noticed this discrepancy in handgun/rifle standards over the years. It is kind of strange, isn't it. I think some folks have confused the information they read comparing rifle-to-rifle cartridges and those comparing pistol-to-pistol cartridges. Yep, the 30-30 is relatively mild when compared to other big game rounds and the .44 magnum is toward the top of the heap of handgun cartridges, but give me a 30-30 every time when that deer is standing 150 yards out in the bean field. We really have to be honest when comparing the two formats. With rare exceptions, there is no comparisons between the two.

 

[jerkface11]

You read about the .30-30 Winchester rifle cartridge and the conclusion you reach is that you have a barely able, short range deer round. But only if you place the shot perfectly. The same exact caliber in a handgun is capable of taking moose across county lines.

I've noticed that myself.

 

[CraigC]

The issue, from my point of view, is the perception of rifle shooters/hunters and the continued worship of energy as the end-all, be-all indication of a cartridge's effectiveness.

 

[lizziedog1]

I wonder if some of this is due to a handgun being louder. Some folks might think that louder means more power.

 

[Caliper_Mi]

Some of it has to do with what they are compared to.

A .30-30 RIFLE gets compared with .308, .30-06, .338, .375 H&H, .50BMG, etc. In that company, it does come up looking like the wimp despite being plenty to take game with.

A .30-30 PISTOL looks really good because people compare it to pistols (and probably look at rifle ballistics when doing so ) There is probably also a lot of felt recoil with a .30-30 pistol, and as we all know felt recoil translates directly into target destruction.

.44 mag gets compared to other pistols also. If your standard is 9mm, .45, .357, etc that makes .44 mag look great. Dirty Harry also popularized .44 as the worlds most powerful handgun. After all, if Dirty Harry had a .44, it must be enough for anything! This could be why the larger revolver calibers get lumped into the "that's huge, you'll break your wrist!" category.

 

[CraigC]

Or perhaps the problem is the way most shooters compare them??? We should consider that if a 250gr cast bullet launched at 900fps from a .44 or .45 revolver will shoot completely through any deer that walks and kill it graveyard dead, then maybe the fact that it only produces 450ft-lb's of energy could very well be irrelevant?

 

[MAKster]

I think people are just treating handguns and rifles as two totally different categories and using a separate scale within each. The same thing is in effect with car crash ratings. A compact car that gets a high rating is still less save than a full sized SUV that gets a low rating.

 

[lizziedog1]

Why treat them differently. Handguns and rifles do the very same thing, launch a projectile at a target. The size and shape of the weapons are different, but what they do is not.

Here is another example of this silliness.

I looked at general comments about the 10mm Automatic in Cartridges Of The World. It states it is adequate for small, medium and larger game. Of couse, it also mentions in the hands of skilled shooter. This round shoots a 200 grain bullet at around 1200 feet per second. I won't argue that this can kill a large animal.

Same book, different cartridge, the 35 Remington. With this round you can launch a 220 grain bullet at 2000 feet per second. A slightly heavier bullet and a significant velocity increase ove the 10mm. It also says its ok for short range deer and black bear.

If a 10mm pistol is fine for large game, then the 35 Remington should be even better. But not according to this book. It is illogical. Yet, this one book is not the only place where this kind of nonsense is found or heard.

As I said before, a shorter barrel must impart some sort of magical quality on the bullet.

 

[Haxby]

Find some different experts to listen to. There are probably some that you'll agree with more often.
In my experience, though, all the experts say and write so many things, that a certain amount of what they say is nonsense.

 

[Owen Sparks]

Shorter lighter handguns often give the illusion of more power because of an increase in noise, muzzel blast and felt recoil. I remember the first time I shot a .45 ACP out of a 16" semi-auto Thompson, how tame it seemed compaired to a .30-30 or SKS.

 

[DFW1911]

You read about the .30-30 Winchester rifle cartridge and the conclusion you reach is that you have a barely able, short range deer round. But only if you place the shot perfectly. The same exact caliber in a handgun is capable of taking moose across county lines.

LMAO - that seems to be quite true indeed!

There are also questions if the .30-30 is an "adequate" cartridge for HD The standard replies are "get a handgun in ___ caliber" and / or "a 12 gauge."

While I understand the hesitancy of some for using a rifle for HD (over-penetration, noise, etc), IMHO a .30-30 would get the job done if needed.

I'd feel just fine with any of my .30-30 rifles for HD

Sorry for the thread veer.

 

[Zach S]

I never understood it either. I went through this quite a bit when my 9mm AR was my primary HD gun. One of my favorite posts of the time was where someone said something to the fact that a 9mm carbine was a terrible choice due to it being weak, and recommended that I use my Glock 19 instead.

:banghead:

 

[Caliper_Mi]

Why treat them differently. Handguns and rifles do the very same thing, launch a projectile at a target. The size and shape of the weapons are different, but what they do is not.

...

If a 10mm pistol is fine for large game, then the 35 Remington should be even better. But not according to this book. It is illogical. Yet, this one book is not the only place where this kind of nonsense is found or heard.

As I said before, a shorter barrel must impart some sort of magical quality on the bullet.

Yes, they do the same thing, but tend to be used in a different way. Could it be that they are assuming the handgunner will be shooting from within 50 yards and the rifleman at 200 yards? That .35 Rem will lose alot of energy at typical rifle ranges. Yes, the 10mm will lose more, but the platform limits you in terms of accuracy before you get there. So your longer shots with a handgun will still be a close range shot by rifle standards. Thus, less energy is needed at the muzzle to make an adequate cartridge.

 

[critter]

May have to do with 'keyboard statistics'.

 

[lizziedog1]

Thus, less energy is needed at the muzzle to make an adequate cartridge.

Good points. But, if the 10mm is fine for any species at at a limited range, then the 35 Remington can handle the same animal farther away. But, the descriptions don't say that. It says that the 10mm can handle large game and the .35 Remington is limited to deer and black bear.

I'll continue the silliness.

Again, same book, Cartridges Of The World.

First Cartridge: 357 Magnum in the handgun section.

Direct Quote: It has been used successfully on deer, black bear, elk and even grizzly bear. However it is not fully adequate for these large animals unless used by an excellent marksman.

The load section shows a 180 grain bullet at just over 1000 feet per second.

I went to the obsolete cartridge section for the next round.
The Cartridge is the 351 Winchester Self-Loading
It can launch a 180 Grain bullet at over 1800 feet per second.
I'll now quote form the description:

It does not qualify as a suitable deer cartridge.

Again, does the shorter barrel of the revolver impart a magic spell on the bullet. There can be no other explanation for this.

 

[CraigC]

It does not qualify as a suitable deer cartridge.

Interesting how that works, huh?

 

[gordy]

Stop reading books and go hunting.

Well then why is it that the US Army will arm our troops with a rifle in a caliber that is know to drop men out to 300 meters very well.
But is known to be almost useless as a deer hunting caliber?(legal in MN now)
Man and deer are both thin skinned. Can be about the same size.
I think the 30-30 is a great round out to 75 yards, To reach out to 350 yards I would go up to a 270.
At 350 to 700 yards I would use a 30-06 or a 308.
To reach farther I would go with a 7mm mag.
And if I had to reach farther I would use a 50 bmg.
Handguns are for 2 feet up to 35 yards, yes they will shoot farther.
Shotgun with buckshot up to 50 yards, slugs up to 100 yards.
They make bigger ladders so you can do the job at hand with ease.
I can kill a deer at 60 yards with a arrow and a 100 grain broad head.
Man has killed a elephant with a bow and arrow, And you can find a better tool to do it also.

 

[FROGO207]

Gives all those writers with large egos steady jobs at the various gun mags.