Shot w/pellet gun on bike - now open carrying!

[Gun Geezer]

My wife and I were walking, I heard a "pop", heard her yell, looked around to see teenagers in a car, one of them pointing a handgun at us. I drew and began a fast squeeze when she yelled "NO". It was an airgun.

That's the scenario right there that makes me quake. An airgun IS a deadly weapon. People have been killed with $50 pump up air guns. The mid-back area is very easy to penetrate and the lung is easily reached. Victims don't die quick, they just bleed out and suffacate on their own blood.

If the wife has been shot and someone has an pistol pointed at me, I would hard pressed not to return fire. There would be little choice here. It'll be a bad day for everyone, but little dude shouldn't be shooting people with his Red Rider.

 

[Gun Geezer]

I can imagine all kinds of things happening. The scenario I imagine could be very different than yours. I can imagine shooting back at someone shooting a pellet gun at me. It doesn't seem very likely to happen, but it's possible.

It seems so unlikely, and crazy but it could happen.

The .22LR has killed more people than any other cartridge. There are pellet guns approaching the same energy.

Keep it HIGHROAD folks!

Minor point here, but perhaps by "accident" the 22 LR is the leader. But I cannot immagine the lowly 22LR has killed more than the 308, 30-06, 223, 30 carbine, or all those metric labeled round our enemies have used.

Either way, you are certainly correct about air gun power. It has killed may a feral cat.

 

[gym]

Legal liability
In some states liability is present where the licensee brandishes the weapon, threatens use, or exacerbates a volatile situation, or when the licensee is carrying while intoxicated. While state laws vary, generally use of deadly force must be a matter of last resort, when life or limb is endangered, when escape or retreat are foreclosed, and warnings are given but ignored.[22]

However, increased passage of "Castle Doctrine" laws allow persons who own firearms and/or carry them concealed to also use them to protect property, and/or to use them without first attempting to retreat.

Even given these relaxed restrictions on use of force, using a handgun must still be a last resort in some jurisdictions; the user must reasonably believe that nothing short of deadly force will protect the life or property at stake in a situation. And even with Castle Doctrine laws in place, civil liabilities for errors that cause harm to another still exist, although civil immunity is provided in the Castle Doctrine laws of some states, e.g., Texas.

 

[Zoidberg523]

Hey guys, I'm new here, but thought I'd throw in my .02. I don't know about your state, but in my state (Michigan), if it fires a pellet, it is considered a firearm, and if someone fires a firearm at me, I am not going to stop to check for wounds (to see what possible calibers it might be).

Secondly, I can't say what your local Wal Mart stocks, but around here, even a $20 to $30 pellet rifle will penetrate skin; I've been shot by a Crossman 760 and had to have the pellet removed.

I'm not trying to argue with anyone; I'm just saying that, to me at least, a pellet gun is a firearm (if I can hunt with it, it's a firearm; even crossbows and bows are considered firearms, unless I'm very much mistaken), and if I am faced with a situation in which I am being shot at with one (possibly even more than once; who is to say that the attackers don't slow down and fire a semi-automatic pellet pistol ?) I am going to return fire. Just my humble opinion... Thanks guys.

 

[7X57chilmau]

US Federal law prohibits defining an air gun as a "Firearm" (including such definitions by state or local gov's). They are not "Firearms".

They do pose many similar potential risks and dangers.

In Canada (where I be), anything purported to be a firearm during the comission of a crime (even the banana you claimed was a pistol during your bank robbery) does become a "firearm" for the purposes of procecuting you. I'd be unsurprised if similar isn't the case south of the border.

J

 

[Zoidberg523]

.177 CALIBER AIR RIFLES CAN BE PURCHASED DIRECTLY ON THE WEB SITE AND WILL BE SHIPPED DIRECTLY TO YOU. No air pistols of any caliber can be sold to you unless the proper permits are issued by the State and local authorities.
According to Michigan law Sec. 222. As used in this chapter: (b) "Firearm" means a weapon from which a dangerous projectile may be propelled by an explosive, or by gas or air. Firearm does not include a smooth bore rifle or handgun designed and manufactured exclusively for propelling by a spring, or by gas or air, Bb's not exceeding .177 caliber.


An excerpt from BB Gun World's web site... In Michigan, a pellet pistol (with a rifled barrel at least) is considered a firearm and must be registered as such.

 

[bri]

This has been taken way out of context... Yes, there is slight possibility that an air powered weapon could do damage and even slighter possibility to cause death. But how could you justify returning fire on a moving vehicle, knowing some kid just shot at you with an air gun? If that car is moving away from you on your bike, the threat is gone. End of story.

I may be mistaken but aren't you only supposed to use a firearm against another human being if all other options are off the table? Like turning your bike around and peddling really, really fast?

 

[ny32182]

The semantics of whether you want to call a bb gun a "firearm" mean nothing when it comes to justifying use of lethal force. The standard is whether you were in reasonable fear of imminent danger to your life.

If you think you can convince a jury that you felt your life was in peril at the time you pulled the trigger, toward the back of a car that was driving away from you, just because they pelted you in the ass with a bb on the way by.... I'm guessing there are pleny of prosecutors out there who would love to see you try.

 

[Zoidberg523]

This has been taken way out of context... Yes, there is slight possibility that an air powered weapon could do damage and even slighter possibility to cause death. But how could you justify returning fire on a moving vehicle, knowing some kid just shot at you with an air gun? If that car is moving away from you on your bike, the threat is gone. End of story.


Since when is it a sight possibility; I daresay, if you are shot with a pellet gun, there will be damage. Also, how am I to know that it is a couple of kids with a pellet pistol? The OP said that that was his experience; that doesn't mean that every nut-job firing out of their window will be a teen, or will be carrying a pellet gun.

If the car slows down, and the person or persons unknown in the vehicle begin firing, then the car (and therefore the danger) isn't moving away from you, is it?

Most people so far in this thread seem to be laboring under the delusion that every single time someone fires something out of their window it will be a pellet gun; many gangs (especially in large urban cities) require members to kill before being accepted, and drive-bys are the preferred method... Like I said, I dont want to argue, but I support the OP in his decision to carry while riding.

If you think you can convince a jury that you felt your life was in peril at the time you pulled the trigger, toward the back of a car that was driving away from you, just because they pelted you in the ass with a bb on the way by.... I'm guessing there are pleny of prosecutors out there who would love to see you try.

I'm sorry, but I believe that the adage "Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six." applies here. When it comes down to it, if I believe my life to be in danger and I believe that someone with a firearm is firing at me, and I have the means to defend myself (a.e. a pistol) then I am going to do so. In a worst case scenario, I'd rather spend 10 years in prison than eternity underground.

 

[bri]

The OP said that that was his experience...

Exactly. I was commenting on exactly what the OP and others have stated, not hypothetical situations that some others keep drumming up.

If someone draws on me while I'm strolling down the street am I going to check to make sure it's not a pellet gun before I make a move? Of course not. That would be an entirely different discussion, totally different thread. I'm confused as to why people are attempting to steer away from what was actually stated.

IMO, this type of over-zealous talk, in relation to the use of a firearm against another human being, is just more fodder for the antis. Having said that, I've exhausted my thoughts on the subject.

 

[Artiz]

Open carry if visible from medium to long distances can discourage retards to shoot you with a BB gun. I would carry a 6" revolver on a bike if I could. Stupidity of others can get you killed, if they are stupid enough it can turn over to themselves pretty quickly.

 

[Loanshark]

Just because they drove away, or were driving by last time. There's no assurance that they will the next time. I think most of us agree that shooting at the back of a fleeing vehicle is a no no!! Could we stop focusing on that aspect maybe??

 

[ZO6Vettever]

About 15 years ago my wife and I were really into bike riding. I bought 2 aluminum Caloi full suspension mountain bikes for $800. each (big bucks then!). Equipped them with 80 PSI slicks, suspension seatpost and handlebar stem. These were road bike / cruisers (we were already middle aged). We spent winters in Key West and summers in Pennsylvania working like dogs to make the bucks to take 5 months off. I rode all I could in an attempt to do 10,000 miles in 3 years. It took 39 months but I made it. We loved riding, my wife was hit by cars twice and not real seriously injured. I fell down drunk too many times to count coming home from darts or live rock at any one of many watering holes. I can't do it any more but sure remember the sheer joy of the feeling it gives you. Bikers, both with and without engines, I've done both, get the same feeling. Some cyclelists are angry militant types and hog the road but most are like us, try to stay out of the way when possible. Share the road, it belongs to us all. Have fun while you can, youth doesn't last forever.

 

[AKElroy]

When it comes down to it, if I believe my life to be in danger and I believe that someone with a firearm is firing at me, and I have the means to defend myself (a.e. a pistol) then I am going to do so. In a worst case scenario, I'd rather spend 10 years in prison than eternity underground.

When you BELIEVE someone is firing at you?? It is an inviolate rule to know your target. A car with unknown occupants that you BELIEVE is firing a pellet gun at you does not fit that definition.

Let's put this one right up their with shooting through a door because you BELIEVE they are about to break in, or firing into a dark hallway because you BELIEVE their is a prowler in your home.

The use of lethal force requires a little more established jeopardy than belief IMHO. If that car turns & attempts to run you down? Or if it stops and a weapon is aimed at you? That is another story.

 

[ChaoSS]

This is ridiculous. Someone brings up a scenario where guns should not be used, and says that he wants to carry. Certain people tell him that's a bad idea. Others support him. A fight ensues. Suddenly, those supporting him are suggesting different scenarios where a gun might be employable.

The fact is that if you are carrying a gun to ward off dogs and to defend yourself from the backside of a moving car from which someone popped you with a little bb, you shouldn't carry a gun. Ever.

 

[BHP FAN]

might be a good time to start carrying a pocket full of ball bearings,however.

 

[ChaoSS]

No. I wouldn't get into a fight with a car. If they want to play hardball, you could easily end up dead.

Carry a camera that stays strapped to your clothes, handlebars, or helmet, something like the police dash cam. It could come in very handy. Carry pepper spray for the dogs.

 

[Zoidberg523]

AKElroy, you took that out of context, as you very well know; in the same message I say that I would only use the firearm if the car pulled up and fired REPEATEDLY on me; that would give me a pretty good reason to believe that the person or persons in the car wish ill upon me.

I think it's pretty obvious to any gun owner intelligent enough to use a computer that you would never fire into the back of a moving vehicle, just because you felt a small ::snap:: on your back; to point this out time and time again is redundant and rhetorical.

Wow, my first day on the site, and already it's being implied that I'm irresponsible and shouldn't own firearms... This site doesn't seem to hold much in pleasant conversation.

EDIT: For the record, I do not agree with carrying a pistol for dealing with dogs; an adult on a bike is faster than most species of dog, and pepper spray will work on the rest.

 

[amd6547]

We do have pepper spray today, but back in the early days of bicycling, it was quite accepted to deal with chasing dogs with a firearm. The old timers created an entire class of handguns called "velo dogs" which were meant for shooting unruly dogs.
I already wrote about one bad encounter with a car full of yahoos.
The other incident I had happened in my home town.
I was riding down a back street in suburbia. I crossed a side street where a minivan was sitting at a stop sign...I had the right of way, as there was no stop sign for me.
The mini van driver chases after me, and the man driving starts yelling that bikers don't obey traffic laws...he thought there was a stop sign for me.
I practice avoidance as he tries to cut me off...I hop curbs, reverse direction...it was kind of funny as he kept trying to stop me and I kept going.
Finally, I stopped to see what he would do. He jumps out of his car holding a foot long piece of thick steel cable with tape wrapped around one end for a grip, and starts toward me. When he got close enough, I picked up my bike and thrust the front chain cog in his face...He cursed me, got back in his minivan, and drove off.
A cop cruised by a little while later and asked if there had been an altercation.
I told him the license number and about the cable-bludgeon, and the cop went after him.
Never knew what happened to the guy, but I still remember the look on his face when I put that front cog an inch from his kisser.

 

[mgregg85]

Pellet guns/bb guns are close enough to lethal for me to shoot back. A shot in the neck stands a good chance of killing you. Some are even powerful enough to kill someone with a lucky torso shot or head shot.

Michigan has 'stand your ground' laws that allow you to use lethal force to defend yourself any time you might be threatened with serious bodily harm in a place that you have a legal right to be.

1. Fear of Death.
2. Fear of Serious Bodily Injury.
3. Fear of Forcible Sexual Penetration

In addition to these three reasons for the use of deadly force, the following three conditions must exist in order for the use of deadly force to be justifiable:

1. Imminent - One of the three above listed reasons for the use of deadly force must be about to happen; it cannot be something that will happen tomorrow or in a few weeks.
2. Intent - The attacker has to have demonstrated some sort of intent. This can be verbal or non-verbal. The display of a weapon, verbal threats, or aggressive advances after being told to stay away are all indications of intent.
3. Ability – The attacker has to have the ability to carry through with their intended attack. If someone says they are going to shoot you, but have no firearm, then they do not have the ability to shoot you at that moment.

http://www.southsidesportsmanclub.com/stand-your-ground.html

I'll risk it in court if I must, I won't be shot at without returning fire. The only line I would draw would be if it was a paintball or airsoft gun, obviously those are not going to be fatal. Someone shooting at you from a car with a bb gun is going to be a special case though, as soon as they take the shot, odds are they are going to run for it and that means you are no longer in danger and thus no reason to shoot.

 

[AKElroy]

you took that out of context, as you very well know; in the same message I say that I would only use the firearm if the car pulled up and fired REPEATEDLY on me; that would give me a pretty good reason to believe that the person or persons in the car wish ill upon me.

I think it's pretty obvious to any gun owner intelligent enough to use a computer that you would never fire into the back of a moving vehicle, just because you felt a small ::snap:: on your back; to point this out time and time again is redundant and rhetorical.

I did not read the entire thread before my post. As for THR being an unfriendly site, stick around for a few hundred posts before you draw that conclusion. You are doing fine. This group has helped me learn a lot.

It helps to assume the best from someones comments, not the worst, and to keep an open mind. Stick around long enough to figure out there is a tremdendous amount of knowledge here from which to benefit.

But, and this is a big but, KEEP SOME THICK SKIN ON when posting anything controversial. SD is ALWAYS controversial. These folks take SD scenarios in particular very seriously, and your wording needs to be precise because these folks will BRING IT. Welcome to THR!

 

[jhco50]

when the kids were young, my wife and I would ride bikes with them. Actually, the older daughter rode in a seat behind me. I was carrying a BB pistol and one day two big dogs come after us. I can't remember what they are called but they were biguns'. I pulled the pellet gun, aimed, fired.......and watched the BB bounce off the back of the first dog. Luckily, the owner came out and called them back. I left a pucker mark on my seat.

I then started carrying a .25 Auto because we had a lot of trouble with cars tailgaiting and cutting us off (residential side streets). This didn't seem to impress anyone so I upped the ante to a .45 Auto carried in the back of my pants.

From that point on we had plenty of room to ride. People ould give us at least a car length or more behind us and if they did pass, the gave us warning and plenty of room. This was in Denver, Colorado.

 

[Cosmoline]

Remember, bullets don't blow people over like in the movies. The impact can feel like nothing much more than a rock. For example, Ronald Reagan didn't even know he had been hit, and seemed AOK as he was rushed away. The service moves really fast, but even so by the time they got him to the hospital he was white as a sheet and very, very close to death. Little itty bitty flattened piece of a .22LR bullet cut right into his lung and nearly killed him.

If someone is pointing what looks like a pistol at you from a car and is apparently shooting at you, I would not suggest waiting around for the doctors to confirm whether or not it was a .22 or a BB. Obviously if you *KNOW* it's just a BB or it splots in paintball fashion, the proper course is to pull the cell phone not the firearm. But if I feel a sharp sting and see what looks like a firearm? I'm emptying the revolver at the location of the shooter. Everyone in that car is part of the attack on me, and I do not have the luxury of waiting to see if the thing that looks like a firearm that just zapped me is really truly a firearm. If my eyesight is extra sharp and I see it to be a mere pellet pistol, that's their lucky day. Probably not likely though.

From that point on we had plenty of room to ride

I wish I could say the same. The drivers around here are so profoundly stupid I could be hauling a Napoleon on a carriage and they would still mouth off. Case in point--I'm riding up the separated bike path into the city and on the opposite side of the six lane road a different cyclist cuts off a car. That cyclist is on a road bike looking like a member of Team Poseur. He zips past me. I, on the other hand, am a hulking mountain of a man on a huge Kona Hoss hauling a trailer full of Costco stuff and, yes, a Winchester Big Bore in my backpack scabbard for the world to see. Yet these three teenaged idiots screech to a halt in front of *ME* and start screaming at me and challenging me to a fight for cutting them off!

We're talking multiple layers of deep, deep stupidity. I smiled and explained politely that the fellow they were mad at was about a mile and a half down the trail by now. They didn't really seem to understand, but after a few more swear words to brighten my day they screeched off. LOL

 

[ChaoSS]

But if I feel a sharp sting and see what looks like a firearm? I'm emptying the revolver at the location of the shooter.

That's quite the broad statement. You sound as if you may very well fire into the back of a receding vehicle. But you know what's really disturbing?

Everyone in that car is part of the attack on me

So I guess when little johnny takes his new bb gun and pops you one before his parents know what's going on, the whole family is fair game, huh? Or when 16 year old Zach is showing off with his friends, the fact that his mom made him bring 5 year of Sarah home means nothing to you?

What ever happened to "know what you are shooting at"? You are the very definition of the kind of guy that shouldn't have a gun.

 

[gym]

This is getting too hypothetical, we have the right to disagree and this is a good example of strong feelings on both sides . It becomes a legal issue if it goes past the theory phase. It seems we have many interpretations of what the law states and what the OP chooses to do in his or her perception of the way he sees the law. I for one hope nothing occurs, should the OP choose to carry his weapon openly. When someone is trying to kill you you usually don't have to wonder about it. Either they are or they aren't, and thinking about it after the fact can lead you down this path. Shoulda, coulda, woulda.