Shotgun defense

[Afy]

I am in a stuation where we can not get pump actions with smotth bores. So the best option I guess is an O/U or a SxS.
Was thinking of having one barrel with 00 and the other with #6. Effective engagement ranges are likely to be under 3 meters am not worried about over over penentration due to concrete walls. I do not live in the US, and am worried just about effectiveness in a confined space.

not afraid of recoil, and have 3 inch chambers on the Fabarms O/U I have and ditto for the Mossberg with a rifled barrel.

 

[B33fC8k]

I'm not sure what the question is.

At three meters, I imagine that both rounds will effectively fill a self defense roll.

I never understood why people would want to mix up shells for self defense other than to have something to talk about.

 

[Afy]

Well I thought that the brid shot would provide better area coverage than 00. I dont shoot shotguns a lot. I do shoot rifles quite a bit.

One does try and learn. Better than going spray and pray with Vz 58 or a Cz 75

 

[oneounceload]

Coverage, as you called it, is determined by the choke, not the pellet size. At 3 meters, through the same choke, birdshot and buckshot will have similar patterns

3" shells are not necessary, especially at that range

 

[Afy]

Well I dont really have choke on my O/U because it was bought used and neglected, and I had to chop the first three inches of the muzzle off. The mossberg is a slug gun with riflinf so essentially useless with pellets. I shoot brennekkes out of it at 100 meters at paper targets for fun.

 

[au01st]

If overpenetration is not an issue, just load them up with 00BK, skip the birdshot.

 

[Afy]

Will do thank you

 

[huntsman]

How about slug and buck? I'd like that more than birdshot

 

[SeekHer]

If your barrels are still about 24"/60.9cm or more long you may want to think about having interchangeable choke tubes installed...depends on the amount of barrel thickness you have there.

Shooting buck or bird out of a rifled barrel is doable--it just presents a doughnut shaped pattern but at five to ten metres, still equals a good spread.

If you can acquire a shell with more pellets then #00 buck, say #2 or #4 buck that would be a better way to go...You would have the coverage (greater number of pellets in the area) you want and still have sufficient mass for penetration...The FBI suggests #4 buck for home defense.

The FBI stats say that most encounters happen at 7 yds or less…They also require a pellet to achieve 12” of penetration at that distance since it may have to go through the extended forearms of the miscreant holding a gun before encountering heavy clothing

I prefer #F or #T since I reload and #4 buck for store purchases...I also load duplex loads--two different sizes in the husk...#2 buck and #2 bird makes for a devastating pattern at 10 yards as does #F and #2 bird

Shot... Dia.........Pellets Approx
Size......(in)........in 1 Oz
#0000.….0.38……...4
#000…... 0.36.…....6.25
#00….... 0.33….....8.13
#0…...... 0.32..…...9
#1…...... 0.30….. 10.6
#2 …..... 0.27….. 12.5
#3 …..... 0.25….. 18
#4…...... 0.24….. 20.3
Birdshot
#F…......0.22…..28.1
#TT….....0.21…..29.5
#T…......0.20…..31.3
#BBB…....0.19…..43.8
#BB…......0.18…..46.5
#B….......0.17…..50
#1….......0.16…..70.8
#2….......0.15…..93.8
KNOW THY ENEMY™©

AVERAGE OR TYPICAL PATTERN DIMENSIONS
(Expressed in Inches of Diameter)
YARDAGE……10…..20……25
Spreader…..…..23…….27…….44
Cylinder…..…...20…….32…….38
Imp Cyl…..…….15…….26…….32
Modified…..……12…….20…….26
Full………..……..09…….16…….21
KNOW THY ENEMY™©

Mass + energy = penetration…Penetration is what kills and the bigger the pellet the deeper it will penetrate...Skeet or Field loads (<1,000 fps) are not recommended and magnum (1,200+ fps) preferred.

The problem is where the median is.
Too many pellets = Less weight per pellet for penetration
Too few pellets = Less chance of a hit—especially at distance

In Inches
circle…circum.....area
05…......15.70…..….19.64
10…......31.42…..….78.54
15…......47.12…....176.72
20…......62.83…..…314.16
30…......94.25…..…706.86
40….....125.66…..1256.64
KNOW THY ENEMY™©

Coverage by Pellet per inch²
Area.....4 Pellet........6.........9..........12........15........18.......20....24 Pellet
19.64.........4.91......3.27......2.18.......1.63.....1.31....1.09.....0.98....0.82
78.54.......19.64....13.09.......8.73.......6.55.....5.24....4.36.....3.93....3.27
176.72......44.18....29.45.....19.64.....14.73....11.78....9.82.....8.84....7.36
314.16.....78.54.....52.36.....34.91.....26.18....20.94...17.45...15.71...13.09
706.86....176.72...117.81.....78.54.....58.91....47.12...39.27...35.34...29.45
1256.64...314.16...209.44...139.63....104.72....83.78...69.81...62.83...52.36
KNOW THY ENEMY™©

314.16 is a square of about 17.72"/45cm a side = a lot of area for a pellet to miss the target altogether...52.36 is 7.24"/18.39cm a side, still lots of room to miss in.

The great thing about the double shotgun is that you can have two different loads available for instantaneous decision making...non of this pump two out to get to what I want like with a magazine feed...It also, though, limits the amount of shots...Practice speed loads with two extra cartridges in your off hand--open, eject, insert, close, shoulder and fire can be done is amazingly fast times--check out CAS - Cowboy Action Shooting events.

Load one barel with a magnum goose/duck load of #2 bird (left) and the other barrel with #4 buck (right)...If the intruder is a soft skinned four legged omnivore or a snake you're covered with the #2 and the #4 if not...Reloads will be buck.

Get a shotgun butt cuff for holding some extra shells---mine holds six and I stack them with heavy loads crimp down and light loads with crimp up and they're staggered--up, down, up.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

Why arent you considering the Vz-58?

 

[CWL]

At HD/SD ranges, you really don't need birdshot. If you pattern your 00 buck, you should have a spread of probably a palms-width. The effectiveness of shotguns is that they can dump a lot of energy into a small area using multiple pellets, not that they spray out a magical "cone of death".

An O/U or SxS holds 2 shells, that should be enough as long as you can consistently hit the COM of what you are aiming at.

 

[Afy]

Not considering the Vz 58 simply because it has a very light trigger. Additionally in France it is a lot more difficult to justify its use due to the weapon laws. It is supposed to be locked up in a safe. A shotgun isnt.

 

[redstategunnut]

It's called birdshot for a reason. It's for shooting birds.

If you are shooting large mammals, pick appropriate ammunition.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

Thanks for letting me know about the relevant laws.

In that case, I'll echo what the other posters have said and suggest 00 Buckshot.

 

[Kendal Black]

Afy,

Even at very short range I would not go smaller than BB. However, for a while Federal Cartridge Co. (one of the best American makers) offered a "Personal Defense" shotshell loaded with #2 birdshot. I think that is too small but I'm sure the company tested it on gelatin and so forth.

Your gun's lack of chokes is in fact an advantage, in my opinion anyway. I think a defensive shotgun should have no choke at all, since justifiable self defense is nearly always a very short range matter.

 

[CWL]

Even at very short range I would not go smaller than BB. However, for a while Federal Cartridge Co. (one of the best American makers) offered a "Personal Defense" shotshell loaded with #2 birdshot. I think that is too small but I'm sure the company tested it on gelatin and so forth.

Ammunition companies sell whatever the public will buy, it's all about profit. There have been dozens, if not hundreds of "new & improved" defensive ammunition that perform worse than standard ammo. Don't depend on anything that you haven't tested and patterned yourself.

 

[ridgerunner1965]

at 3 meters even a low brass birdshot load out of a unchoked barrel would be a solid mass of lead.the impact alone even on a guy wearing a kevlar vest id assume would knock him down and allow for a second more well aimed head shot.did i understand you could have pump shotguns with rifled barrels? if thats the case, id go for them.the rifleing will open up your patterns but at close range i dont think it would be a prob with buckshot.the multiple shots would and could be your saviour in a multiple intruder situation.

 

[Kendal Black]

Ammunition companies sell whatever the public will buy, it's all about profit. There have been dozens, if not hundreds of "new & improved" defensive ammunition that perform worse than standard ammo. Don't depend on anything that you haven't tested and patterned yourself.

In this case the public didn't buy it. It was a commercial flop and was soon discontinued. Fed thought they had a fine idea, a spreader load of largish birdshot, and they put a shot-up gelatin block in the ads, to show the load actually wrecked things rather well, but it was no dice.

Actually this load made more sense, to me at least, than what the public likes: Tight patterns and big buckshot.

Here is an old review of the shell: http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs13.htm#Federal PD Shotshell

 

[JFrame]

I'm always interested and amazed by the twists and turns of gun laws around the world.

The idea of not being able to purchase a smoothbore pump shotgun is quite, uh, esoteric.

It's kind of like saying you can only buy a rifle if it doesn't have any rifling or otherwise provide twist...

Of course, we have our share of idiotic gun laws...


.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

IMO I would put a Slug in the top barrel and 00 Buck in the bottom one.

 

[Kendal Black]

I'm going to suggest against loading the two barrels differently.

Now, I really like my old double barrel with two triggers, and the instant ability to shoot larger or smaller shot--but only in situations afield. It seems to me that in a home defense situation you want few decisions to make after the all important one: to shoot or not. Why not eliminate the choice of, shall I shoot him with load A or load B? I call this kind of thinking 'pruning the decision tree.'

 

[VA27]

Mossberg pump with a rifled barrel? Shoot any size buckshot you have in it. At self defense ranges there won't be a problem.

Step off the greatest distance you would fire in your house and go to the range with your guns and buckshot and try 'em at that distance.

 

[Afy]

Jframe: the laws in France are quite lenient compared to some other ountries and very restrictive compared to some others. We can get suppressed shotguns, and not need to register them, while a .22 lr pistol needs a permit.

I personally dont think there is a household outside of paris that does not have at least one completely off the books weapon. Whether a bolt action Mauser or MG 42.

My VZ 58 is registered and certified as Semi Only. However it malfunctions at will. Went Gendamaries (Often confused with the police, but technically are a part of the army and incharge partially for wepons licensing), and the answer I got was, 'Don't worry and dont do it too often.' Weird.

 

[rodregier]

00BK reduced recoil loading in O/U in your situation would be my choice. No more power needed. Lighter loadings speed shot-to-shot recovery time.

I'm presuming an O/U would be more affordable than a S/S.

 

[KodiakBeer]

Actually, since you've already shortened the muzzles, you might want to consider shortening them even more. In the US, there's kind of a standard of 18 inches (45 centimeters) for home defense shotguns. Of course, that length is dictated by one of our more stupid laws, so in your case any length of 40 - 45 centimeters would make a nice handy defense weapon.

At these ranges, shortening the muzzles even further won't make any real difference in spread, but it would be a handier weapon in the confined space of a home.