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shotgun guys help me - shotguns for scout camp

Discussion in 'Shotguns' started by wtr100, May 11, 2015.

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  1. wtr100

    wtr100 Member

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    Scout camp –
    youths –
    20 ga


    We burn though on the order of 15,000 shells in a summer.

    Been buying Rem 870 and Rem 1187 youth models and they’re not holding up well, 870’s better than 1187’s. Would it make sense to spend a little more on under / over like

    http://www.stoegerindustries.com/condor-youth-shotgun
     
  2. rule303

    rule303 Member

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    The Condor would be MUCH more problematic than what you are currently using. Ideally, O/U's from Browning or Beretta would be great, but budgets probably don't allow it.
    I would stick with pumps from Mossberg or Remington for price and ease of maintenance. Gas autos are a lot more pleasant for kids to shoot, but do require more upkeep to stay running.
     
  3. Black Knight

    Black Knight Member

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    Check out the Mossberg 500. Less money but high quality. Granted they may be a little rough at times but they are very good guns. The police force I am an officer for has been using the Mossberg 500 in a police configuration for nearly 13 years.
     
  4. loose noose

    loose noose Member

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    I second the Mossberg pump, as far as cost, and functionality goes. I've bought my sons Mossberg 20 gauge pumps as soon as they were old enough to shoot/hunt, and they still have them and are still using them to train there kids.
     
  5. Virginian

    Virginian Member

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    When you say they are not holding up, what's happening to them?
     
  6. Armored farmer

    Armored farmer Member

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    I would think that the 20ga gas guns like the 1100s or 1187s, or beretta 303 wd be the best choice imho.
    I think a spring cleaning and maintenance of O-rings, gas ports, springs, magazine tubes would get them ready for trouble-free 15k rounds.
    My experience is with 1100s. they are reliable and soft-shooting, but not necessarily maintenance free. They need regular cleaning. Choke-cleaner and non-aerosol lube is your friend.
     
  7. ColtPythonElite

    ColtPythonElite Member

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    X3 on Mossberg 500.
     
  8. Liberty1776

    Liberty1776 Member

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    ev'ybody nailed it... switch to the Mossberg 500
     
  9. bangswitch

    bangswitch Member

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    What type of shooting are they doing? How often do they need an immediate second shot? If you're teaching basic shotgunning, how about the good ol' single shot break open, like a Stevens 94? Cheap, easy to maintain, reliable, solid gun.

    But, for a multiple shot, I'd also go with the Mossberg. Mine's close to 30 years old, works perfectly.
     
  10. AI&P Tactical

    AI&P Tactical Member

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    If you ware out an 870 please let us know. Being they out last the owner I would very curious to what your issue is. Of course maintaining the weapon properly is important but short of shear neglect I can't see you wearing them out. As for the 11-87's they need more maintenance and parts changes as do most semi--autos. Take any 11-87 that you think is at the end of it's life and spend a few dollars on parts and the gun is like new again. I am thinking you may simply want to have the guns checked out and tuned up and use all the money you save on ammo for the kids.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2015
  11. eastbank

    eastbank Member

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    i know where there is a second or third year 870 rem 12ga that has been used for close to 60 years by three generations of hunters and it has needed a firing pin and extractor. both parts were bought thru a parts dealer for under 10.00 and self installed. maintence was a squirt of some kind of oil two or three times a year with a pull thru brush thru the barrel. i vote rem 870 express from walmart. eastbank.
     
  12. Virginian

    Virginian Member

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    OP still hasn't said what's going on. I have never had to replace anything on 7 different 870s going back 41 years, and have only had to replace one extractor on 14 different personal 1100s/11-87s in 53 years. The broken extractor was on an 1100 that now has over 115,000 rounds thru it - the extractor was changed on the 11-87 to address that issue. But I will admit other people break things; I don't know why. I have seen about every part broken or bent on one, and have seen more of them put together wrong and poorly maintained than I can count. I bought the last 11-87 for a song just to stop the owner from bitching and bad mouthing Remington. When I got it, I gave it a once over, nothing was wrong and it wasn't very dirty. Gun ran flawlessly for me, even cycled Winchester Universals just fine, and I loved to shoot it anytime I was around him.
     
  13. wtr100

    wtr100 Member

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    My knowledge of shotguns is a bit limited - more a rifle guy but

    Ejector, ejector spring and shell latch also something in the trigger group that escapes me.

    The issue is once something goes wrong we're supposed to have it repaired by either OEM or a trained gunsmith / armorer. And it's not quite as simple as just running it to the shop. Need a PO and authorization from the head office. :banghead:

    They've been kind enough to go down one or two at a time.

    We shoot one shot at a time typically - in fact we'd need to be doing something more advanced like doubles trap before we'd load two shells. I think the mags on most of them are plugged at this point.
     
  14. Corpral_Agarn

    Corpral_Agarn Member

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    I have spent 20 summers (3-4 months) of my life at Scout Camp. About 10 of those as an employee. I worked mostly Horsemanship, Blacksmithing, and Archery but made to the shotgun range on occasion.

    We used the 870's and some years they would break down regularly. Other years they had no problems at all.

    Oddly enough, when we had a some joker running the shotgun range the guns broke regularly. When we had a competent Shotgun Director, they ran great.

    I have come to believe is that if the person in charge of the guns actually takes care of them they work just fine.

    My own 870 20 gauge has thousands of round through it, no sweat. And in my younger days, I would say that I did not take as good care of it as I should have.

    If you feel a switch to the Mossy 500 is in order, then by all means give it a try. It's a great shotgun (I prefer the 870, but I have no qualms with the 500).
    But whatever shotgun you choose, make sure the person in charge knows what he is doing. Check their cleaning regimen, make sure they are transporting them properly, etc.
     
  15. PapaG

    PapaG Member

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    42 years of trap with an 870 TB. One trigger part, one firing pin and spring and at 38 years, a cracked receiver which, I'm told, I could have check drilled and kept on shooting but I chose to replace with a period receiver.
    I estimate several hundred thousand rounds through it. Trap full barrel mikes a thousandth larger than when new.
    Don't know about the expresses.
     
  16. natman

    natman Member

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    An emphatic NO. It cost more to make an O/U than a pump. An O/U that's priced like a pump has to be made more cheaply, which the Stoeger / Mossberg SR / Baikal O/Us prove. You would go from minor problems after thousands of rounds to problems right out of the box.
     
  17. AI&P Tactical

    AI&P Tactical Member

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    I will repair any 870 or 11-87 any BSA organization needs repaired for free. You pay shipping back to you and parts only and the parts would be at my dealer cost. I consider this a way to give back and contribute to a great organization that does great work with the youth of this country. My time in BSA help prepare me for life and the things that were coming so giving back is not only a privilege by a debt due.

    I am a Remington Factory Certified Armorer and Certified on the 870 and 11-87 so there should be no issues with your admin approving this. My current certifications are on my web site. Simply contact me at the contact number on my web site if I can help.

    Another option is that I can go live from my work bench and show you how to perform most repairs. Of course if it is something that should not be a DIY repair I will let you know that also.
     
  18. Corpral_Agarn

    Corpral_Agarn Member

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    This is really cool.

    Not many out there are willing to put that out there.

    As an Eagle Scout myself, I appreciate you time and willingness to help out the Scouts.

    Thanks again!
     
  19. Virginian

    Virginian Member

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    Would love to see what happens when someone who knows what they are doing starts taking care of them. Not taking anything away from AI&P's generous offer, but he knows it isn't going to be a big time investment.
    Not saying a Mossberg 500 isn't a good gun, but to even suggest they are far superior to an 870 is absurd.
     
  20. expat_alaska

    expat_alaska Member

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    ^^^^+1

    I can't speak for any 870's other than Wingmasters. With the amount of rounds fired through the OP's guns I would think those guns would be nice and slick. Maybe a shell latch, ejector spring, or extractor replacement might be needed, but I highly doubt it. I have shot/owned 870's since 1969 and have had zero failures. If one has a failure due to improperly loading the magazine and a round slips above the lifter while the bolt is closed on a live round, that is a training issue, not a mechanical malfunction.

    I have converted all 3 870's I have owned to what is now considered Flexi-Tab over 15+ years ago. Bought them from an outfit named L.L. Baston. It used the factory bolt with a modified bolt carrier and a slotted shell lifter (so as to use a thin screwdriver or similar to move the offending shell back into the magazine beyond the shell catches).

    Regardless of how that makes clearing the offending round easier than with the original factory non-slotted lifter, it still does not address a perceived mechanical non-problem related to loading the magazine. Back in the day with the non-Flexitab parts, the standard fix was to briskly whack the butt down onto the ground (or whatever surface) with the shotgun held vertically while pulling back on the forearm and the slide release to clear the jam.

    It worked, but it was rarely needed if one was trained to fully insert the thumb following the shell into the magazine.

    Sorry AI&P, but all of the gizmos still won't prevent improper loading and short-stroking of the 870.

    Jim
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2015
  21. xxjumbojimboxx

    xxjumbojimboxx Member

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    I had a Mossberg 88 that I ran at least 10k through. With many different shooters. I would bet an 88 would last as long as you can shoot it. They're lightweight, and fun to shoot. I upgraded it to a 500, Hated it. Then I tired and 11-48, which i liked, but not as much as the 88. Then an 11-87 which i didn't like. And finally 2 different 1100's that I also didn't care much for. You know whats in the safe now?

    That's right. A Mossberg 88. Also, if it breaks (mine never did) its 170 bucks. YES! :)
     
  22. expat_alaska

    expat_alaska Member

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    .

    Dang. You liked a Rem 11-48, with the long recoil system ala the Browning A-5?

    I shot one quite a while ago and it took a lot of getting used to.

    You must be a glutton for punishment. :D
     
  23. xxjumbojimboxx

    xxjumbojimboxx Member

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    I loved how mechanical it was. You could feel every step of the action working... It was more of a fun thing than an effectiveness thing..
     
  24. USAF_Vet

    USAF_Vet Member

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    I'm also a fan of the recoil action system. I've got a Sportsman 48, the 11-48's daddy.

    +1 on the Moss 500 or Mav 88 if you feel you need to replace those 870's and 11'87's for any reason. But, there should be no reason you need to replace those shotguns as long as they are properly taken care of.

    Select some of the worst, send them to AI&P because that's one hell of an offer, and reevaluate them. I bet a good preventative maintenance plan on those shotguns should keep them going for another generation or so of scouts. Probably more.
     
  25. Virginian

    Virginian Member

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    The Sportsman 48 was not the predecessor of the 11-48, but a later less expensive variation on the original. Exact same action.
     
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