Shotgun or AR15 for all-purpose

[Cee Zee]

Let's see- short stroking, MASSIVE recoil and muzzle blast, dangerous over penetration....so how do you figure that?

"Massive"??? If you mean lots more than a .223 I'd go along with that. Over penetration? Up until the advent of frangible bullets shotguns were considered the least likely weapon to over penetrate. And short stroking doesn't apply if you're using a semi-auto, a bolt action or a single shot. And what about all those jammed 5.56 rifles I see at the range on a regular basis? I don't see many shotguns doing that.

I might agree that a AR is better for HD but a shotgun is absolutely more versatile. And with reduced power loads, a really good recoil pad and a little knowledge on how to hold a shotgun the problem of recoil all be but vanishes.

And what about the person that doesn't know they need to use a particular type of ammo to avoid much more serious problems with over penetration?

The shotgun has been the go to gun for hundreds of years actually. The breech loading musket was often loaded with what we would put in a shotgun shell. All of a sudden we're supposed to think it isn't practical??? I guess the fact that it pretty much tamed the world, conquered continents and fed generations should just be forgotten in a wave of hyperbole. A shogun saved my great, great grandfather from a bear, one saved my mother from being raped, and one saved my uncle from being kidnapped. They sure sound like a practical thing to have around to me.

 

[Eb1]

I'll take twenty .25 cal bullets form a Mossy 500 20 gauge for a home defense gun over an AR-15, and I own both along with a 12 gauge.

A 20 gauge filled with #3 buckshot (IMO) is about as good as a personal defense gun as you can get for 20 to 40 feet.

Recoil? You wont feel it, and it doesn't jump at all if your stock fits you, and you hold the shotgun correctly. It just pushes back if setup proper. The AR-15 with 25 grains of BLC-2 or whatever equivalent in IMR-4895 will burn you eyeballs out of your head in a room, and everyone in that room will be deafer that deaf. I have fired a 9mm in a home. It wasn't loud, and if you know what buck fever feels like....when it comes that time....buck fever will feel like a walk to the mail box.

 

[Warp]

For defensive use it's AR15 WAAAAY ahead of the shotgun all day long. All night too. And three times on Sunday.

For a hunting firearm, sure, the shotgun can do more than any rifle.

 

[Cee Zee]

For defensive use it's AR15 WAAAAY ahead of the shotgun all day long. All night too. And three times on Sunday.

For a hunting firearm, sure, the shotgun can do more than any rifle.

Just so you know, I wouldn't argue with what you just said at all. But the thing about using an AR for HD depends on using the correct ammo. If you use the wrong stuff your neighbors may get an unwanted visitor coming through their wall. Just saying.

I've used a shotgun for HD all my life. With the advent of the new ammo types that don't over penetrate I'm thinking real hard about getting an AR. I never thought I'd get one to be honest but now it seems like the thing to do. It's not that I never liked them. I just had a battle carbine with lots of ammo and I didn't see a reason to get into another format. Now I do. I may even sell my SKS and all that ammo to finance a decent AR and all the ammo I'll need.

 

[Warp]

Just so you know, I wouldn't argue with what you just said at all. But the thing about using an AR for HD depends on using the correct ammo. If you use the wrong stuff your neighbors may get an unwanted visitor coming through their wall. Just saying.

I've used a shotgun for HD all my life. With the advent of the new ammo types that don't over penetrate I'm thinking real hard about getting an AR. I never thought I'd get one to be honest but now it seems like the thing to do. It's not that I never liked them. I just had a battle carbine with lots of ammo and I didn't see a reason to get into another format. Now I do. I may even sell my SKS and all that ammo to finance a decent AR and all the ammo I'll need.

That makes me wonder...how many 'innocent bystanders' have been injured or killed by an over penetrating round during legitimate home defense?

So many people seem very worried about this, all the time, even with reasonable selections of firearm/ammo...is that concern in line with actual events?

 

[Cee Zee]

So many people seem very worried about this, all the time, even with reasonable selections of firearm/ammo...is that concern in line with actual events?

I really don't think that matters much. It doesn't to me. If there's any additional chance it might happen then I don't want to do it. I want the safest method possible. I certainly haven't done any research on people getting shot by stray bullets but I see news reports concerning people that were hit by strays. That's enough for me to use my head to understand that some guns are worse than others when it comes to bullets, buckshot or whatever getting away from the user and killing an innocent bystander. People who live in apartments certainly have more to fear from stray bullets. It's abundantly clear that a bullet that disintegrates on impact with a wall isn't going to be as dangerous as a bullet that freely penetrates that wall and several more like it. And we certainly know that is the case. I know tests have been done to prove that point.

 

[Warp]

I really don't think that matters much. It doesn't to me. If there's any additional chance it might happen then I don't want to do it. I want the safest method possible. I certainly haven't done any research on people getting shot by stray bullets but I see news reports concerning people that were hit by strays. That's enough for me to use my head to understand that some guns are worse than others when it comes to bullets, buckshot or whatever getting away from the user and killing an innocent bystander. People who live in apartments certainly have more to fear from stray bullets. It's abundantly clear that a bullet that disintegrates on impact with a wall isn't going to be as dangerous as a bullet that freely penetrates that wall and several more like it. And we certainly know that is the case. I know tests have been done to prove that point.

There is more than one variable. If all you are concerned with is over penetration/innocent bystanders, the safest method possible is no firearm. Or maybe rock salt. But those methods are less likely to stop an attacker.

How many cases of a person being injured or killed in an apartment due to over penetration do we know of? I can't think of a single one. Can you link maybe one or two?

I really don't think it is as significant of an issue as reading threads like this would lead you to believe.

 

[627PCFan]

My shotguns are do all. I shoot sporting clays/skeet/trap, I hunt geese and ducks, deer, and use it for self defense. There are only 2 areas lacking, long range accuracy (+100 yards) and shells are bulky and heavy.

I do have deer hunting rifles, a few but the versatility of the shotgun is appreciated if I decide to hunt Maryland.

 

[mnhntr]

If I had to choose one over the other the Shotgun would win only because I hunt ducks and other fowl. Luckily I have both and intend to keep it that way.

 

[kapie]

The shotgun.So many different types of shells you can use.I would stock up on shells now. Buckshot,number six and slugs. Your AR is ok. A 22 is good to have.They sure are a pain to buy bullets for right now. A pistol of some sort. 38 special and up. With these four you would be doing good.
The shotgun would be the one to have if i could only have one.

 

[Warp]

The shotgun.So many different types of shells you can use.I would stock up on shells now. Buckshot,number six and slugs. Your AR is ok. A 22 is good to have.They sure are a pain to buy bullets for right now. A pistol of some sort. 38 special and up. With these four you would be doing good.
The shotgun would be the one to have if i could only have one.

Only one and it's a handgun for me. A gun I cannot carry with daily me is laughable as a one and only or best all-around. YMMV

 

[Cee Zee]

How many cases of a person being injured or killed in an apartment due to over penetration do we know of? I can't think of a single one. Can you link maybe one or two?

There's an endless supply of links to stray bullet deaths. Figuring out which ones occurred from weapons fired in a HD situation is going to be almost impossible because most of them happen for other reasons like shooting in the air for a celebration or shooting at someone outside or doing a drive by where unintended targets get hit. You can spend your time sifting through those situations if you want but 2 things come to mind really quick when I started looking.

First the media is never going to be straight up in their coverage of stray bullet shootings. They lump them all together and make no distinction between stupid shots in the air and shooting to stop a rapist from entering your home.

Second the problem with stray bullets is real. People do die from them and we know that bullets do penetrate walls. It would be completely illogical to assume that none of those bullets that penetrated walls never went on to kill anyone. Not being able to find research on the subject is more a function of our PC culture than it is anything else. No self respecting progressive type is going to want to publish information that might make the pro-gun cause look legit. So they don't do that research. They wouldn't want to find that stray bullets hardly ever come from HD situations. They won't even want to admit there is ever a legit case of using a gun for HD.

So short of doing your own study (good luck getting funding from the peer approved journals or government grant institutions) we are left to sift through countless cases of stray bullet deaths trying to find the ones caused HD shootings. And again, that isn't a story line most journalists are going to pursue or even mention if they knew it was the case.

Still it makes absolutely no sense not to be concerned about the issue. It certainly is possible that stray HD bullets kill people not connected to the crime or even the scene of the crime. Bullets do penetrate walls and stray bullets do kill. That much is incredibly obvious. It really seems strange to even consider it so unlikely that it need not be factored in to the choice of guns for HD. No one thinks that except you apparently.

It does matter to me that buckshot continues through walls while frangible .223 rounds don't. It's as obvious as it gets IMO. And again I'm thinking about switching to a different HD weapon because of this. I keep hoping someone will apply the frangible bullet technology to bullets that fit the gun I already own. Maybe that will happen and maybe it won't though.

A gun I cannot carry with daily me is laughable as a one and only or best all-around.

The OP's question was about the most all-purpose gun. I can do HD with a shotgun. I can't hunt ducks with a handgun. Clearly the shotgun does more things than other guns. Obviously it doesn't do everything better than other guns. It can fulfill the purpose though.

 

[Warp]

There's an endless supply of links to stray bullet deaths. Figuring out which ones occurred from weapons fired in a HD situation is going to be almost impossible because most of them happen for other reasons like shooting in the air for a celebration or shooting at someone outside or doing a drive by where unintended targets get hit.

Obviously idiots firing blindly into the air in celebration, or criminals committing a drive by shooting, are not relevant. Especially since, in many of those, no intermediate barrier is defeated, but rather, the innocent person is simply shot.

You can spend your time sifting through those situations if you want but 2 things come to mind really quick when I started looking.

First the media is never going to be straight up in their coverage of stray bullet shootings. They lump them all together and make no distinction between stupid shots in the air and shooting to stop a rapist from entering your home.

Trust me, if a law abiding citizen...with a rifle, no less...injured or killed an innocent in a defensive shooting...the media is going to let us know.

Second the problem with stray bullets is real. People do die from them and we know that bullets do penetrate walls. It would be completely illogical to assume that none of those bullets that penetrated walls never went on to kill anyone.

And this is a straw man. Please go back and read my posts again, you seem to be rather confused about what I have said.

Not being able to find research on the subject is more a function of our PC culture than it is anything else.

Negative. Our "PC culture" is not afraid to point out gun owners doing something with a negative result on an innocent person.

No self respecting progressive type is going to want to publish information that might make the pro-gun cause look legit.

lolwut? A case of over penetration injuring or killing an innocent person does the exact opposite.

Still it makes absolutely no sense not to be concerned about the issue. It certainly is possible that stray HD bullets kill people not connected to the crime or even the scene of the crime. Bullets do penetrate walls and stray bullets do kill. That much is incredibly obvious. It really seems strange to even consider it so unlikely that it need not be factored in to the choice of guns for HD. No one thinks that except you apparently.

More straw man. Please go back and read what I have posted.

The OP's question was about the most all-purpose gun. I can do HD with a shotgun. I can't hunt ducks with a handgun. Clearly the shotgun does more things than other guns. Obviously it doesn't do everything better than other guns. It can fulfill the purpose though.

And you can't do concealed carry with a shotgun.

If you only get one, you have to select a lot of potential firearm uses that you simply will not be able to do. Some people prioritize defense with their firearms. Others hunting. And still more cheap fun target shooting or competition. There is no wrong answer, only different priorities and preferences.

 

[Zach S]

Nevermind. I have found that comments such as the one I originally put here have about the same effect as pointing the TV remote at the lady and hitting the "mute" button...

 

[justice06rr]

For general purpose, I use the AR because it holds more ammunition and can shoot longer distance (way farther than most shotguns).

Shotguns are great for HD and some hunting, but the AR can do just the same. Shotguns are very versatile because of the different uses and types of ammo that are available, but a rifle can also fill this role (depending on caliber).

Having both a shotgun and an AR, I would probably grab the AR 60% of the time.

 

[JWH321]

During the past couple of years, the ammo shelves at local stores were empty, except for 12 ga shotgun shells. They still had sales on those. I'd keep the shotgun just based on that fact alone.

 

[texasgun]

a standard length shotgun will have a grapefruit or even baseball sized spread at standard in-home defense distances (less than 10yds). so unless you have a 20yd hallway in your mansion.... an AR is much much better. higher capacity, lower recoil and you are also good for distances.

the saying that with a shotgun you don't have to aim is a myth... you are throwing grapefruits at an intruder... very easy to miss actually.

 

[Cee Zee]

a standard length shotgun will have a grapefruit or even baseball sized spread at standard in-home defense distances

Actually that isn't always true. I've had short barrel shotguns (min. legal length) with open chokes that if combined with the right ammo would spread a good bit in 5 yards. But even 5 yards is a lot in a house. Still it would have been a wide pattern at 2-3 yards. I'm not talking some huge spread here. It's just more than the baseball size spread mentioned here. Most shotguns do shoot a pattern that spreads about an inch per yard but that's an average that is often tossed around. Open chokes with certain types of ammo can double that. That still would only mean a 10" spread at 30 feet and a 30 foot shot indoors isn't likely. But it can happen. I certainly wouldn't count on the old "point in that direction and it will hit everything on that wall" baloney we have all seen on tv.

 

[SDGlock23]

Everybody has their opinions and I used to have an AR15 but decided that for all around use, I much prefer my 870 12ga. It's not as high capacity for sure, but it covers EVERYTHING that a gun can be used for, from plinking, sporting use, home defense and hunting any game animal on earth. Just swap barrels for what you want, I keep an 18" choked barrel on it for home defense use 99.99% of the time, slide on the 26" smooth bore when I want to bust some clays or rabbits or put on a rifled barrel for use with saboted slugs, which have come a long way from what they used to be!

 

[Warp]

Everybody has their opinions and I used to have an AR15 but decided that for all around use, I much prefer my 870 12ga. It's not as high capacity for sure, but it covers EVERYTHING that a gun can be used for, from plinking, sporting use, home defense and hunting any game animal on earth. Just swap barrels for what you want, I keep an 18" choked barrel on it for home defense use 99.99% of the time, slide on the 26" smooth bore when I want to bust some clays or rabbits or put on a rifled barrel for use with saboted slugs, which have come a long way from what they used to be!

Can you carry it daily? Carry it concealed? Carry it concealed where only handguns can be carried concealed?

Can you shoot it accurately at 100, 150, 200, 400, or more yards?

I'm thinking not.

No one gun can be used for EVERYTHING that a gun can be used for. It's just not possible.

 

[Cee Zee]

Can you shoot it accurately at 100, 150, 200, 400, or more yards?

Up to 200 yards and more, yes. No one said it was the do all gun that I saw. What was said was that, "it covers EVERYTHING that a gun can be used for," which is true. It isn't a sniper rifle but the range improves on them more and more. Most places that I know killing anything past 200 yards is rare. There are just too many trees and hills around. I'm not saying the shotgun will do everything but it covers long distance hunting in my state for sure. You can't hunt with a high powered rifle in fact. Besides you can hunt at fairly long distances. That "covers" long range hunting IMO.

BTW you may want to rethink carrying a shotgun concealed. It is possible. It was fairly common in the 1930's for gangsters to carry shotguns under a trench coat. And I hate to bring it up but trench coats became popular because the shooters at Columbine concealed shotguns under them. The term "trench coat mafia" became popular because of them.

FWIW the people at that school apparently treated those guys horrendously. I'm certainly not excusing what they did but it does make it a little easier to see what happened. They had cups of excrement thrown on them. A bunch of people stood around them squirting them with ketchup and the teachers did nothing. That stuff should be criminal. You can't force a kid to go to a school where he is treated that way. Our entire school system becomes suspect over stuff like that. I sure don't want to excuse what they did. It was evil. But I just learned this stuff when I looked up how they concealed those shotguns. Sorry for the off topic rant. It really got to me reading what they went through. But nothing excuses what they did.

 

[Warp]

What was said was that, "it covers EVERYTHING that a gun can be used for," which is true.

No. It isn't. Simple as that.


*But, again, NO single firearm can cover EVERYTHING that a gun can be used for.

 

[Panfisher]

For me the choice was very simple, I chose my AR. I am at heart a rifle guy, I love shotguns for shooting birds, trap, skeet and sporting clays, pistols are fun too, but I grew up with rifles as the serious weapon. Where I live out in the country the rifle is much more useful, I have no next door neighbors, my wife has 14 years of Army time so the the AR platform is easy for her to use. Mine has a low powered scope and a basic light attached, which will easily light up a coyote, or stray dog at night. Loaded with 55 grain HP or Varmit type ammo I have no worries about its performance, quite accurate and has taken 2 deer with no problems (used different bullets, one a nosler partition and one TSX). Honestly I don't even keep a shotgun handy, there is a 20 ga pump in the gun cabinet with a box of shells close by, but otherwise its the AR or the old .22 WMR over the door.

 

[USAF_Vet]

I have both, and can't see myself without either.

My current obsession is more in line with the AR than the shotgun, but since I hope to be taking some classes next spring, I'll be starting out with a shotgun course. It's the one gun where I'm completely self taught.

My AR is in the bedroom closet, for HD, and my Mav 88 is upstairs for the same reason. Pistol is always on me, for the event I'm in neither area.

The shotgun is all around more versatile than the AR, but that isn't to discount the effectiveness of the AR. Depending on the situation, one might be a better choice than the other, so it really depends on your approach and perspective.

I'm not much of a hunter, I work way to much to get out to the field or woods. I'm more likely to harvest a deer with my front bumper than my shotgun or rifle. So my approach and perspective defense with training from a military background. I look at firearms to evaluate best their combat role first and foremost, then other uses secondarily. So that's where my advise comes from.

If forced to choose, I still think I'd choose the shotgun over the AR.

 

[huntsman]

I look at firearms to evaluate best their combat role first and foremost, then other uses secondarily. So that's where my advise comes from.

The diversity of this board is what makes it great.

I've been toting a shotgun since I was 12 and having spent many happy days following behind a dog or sitting in a blind my perceptions(needs) are more bucolic than say a warrior's would be, IF I ever need to protect myself it'll be with a 12 gauge I just pray I'm not totally delusional