Shotgun or AR15 for all-purpose

[M1key]

For HD, the ability to put a hit on a running target might prove to be a critical factor and would be easier to accomplish with a shotgun than an AR (with no scope or RD).

My neighbor is a single mother of about 50 years old (with daughter who is 14) who asked me recently to sell her deceased husband's 870 for her. She currently has a Glock 19 which she carries in the car with her to her job.

I seriously doubt she can afford a tricked out AR on her salary. I suggested she might want to keep the shotgun for HD, either replace the long barrel with a short one, and load it with Federal Tactical reduced recoil buckshot for a much more effective weapon than the 9mm. I could even chop the old barrel down for her.

She lives on an acre and a half outside town so overpenetration is not much of an issue.

Anyway, she is thinking about it. I hope she decides to keep it.

M

 

[justice06rr]

Up to 200 yards and more, yes. No one said it was the do all gun that I saw. What was said was that, "it covers EVERYTHING that a gun can be used for," which is true.

200 yards???

How accurate would a shotgun be at that range? Even with a slug, 100yards is stretching it. Buckshot... forget about it.
I shoot slugs at 40yards when I do 3Gun events; believe me that is not as accurate as shooting a rifle. You can hit center mass with a shotgun slug at that range, but anything farther is really a stretch for a shotgun esp when only using standard sights (usually bead or upgraded front sight). Its not the rifle, but usually the ammo that needs to be considered.

I agree that the shotgun is a great versatile weapon, but it does NOT cover everything. Definitely not long range accuracy, not concealment, or when high capacity is needed. They can be used in those situations, but would not be ideal.

 

[115grfmj]

Yes the shotgun can be very accurate to 200 yds with a rifled bore and readily available modern designed slugs (hornadys sst, winchester partions etc). My own personal 870 can keep ssts on a pie plate easily at 200yds. From personal experience, in real life, you don't need more than that. I'm talking real life not "games". It's called practical accuracy.

There is really no contest here, the AR is a fine platform, but it can not hold a candle to the versatility of a even the average pump SG. Think about it, from birds, to small game, to big game, to defense, plinking, and skeet/trap type games. All with out changing barrels too, just types of ammo.

 

[Cee Zee]

200 yards??? How accurate would a shotgun be at that range?

Minute of deer for sure. Are you familiar with rifled barrels and modern sabot slugs?

Field And Stream wrote this about sabots.

"...when the XP3 and SST slugs first came out I shot eight-inch groups with both at 200 yards."

That's not the most accurate firearm you're going to find but it can do the job on a deer at 200 yards. Personally I wouldn't try to shoot one that far but I know people who talk about doing it. That F&S article is a couple of years old and the slugs continue to improve because they are all you can use to hunt whitetails in some states so there is a big demand for more range and accuracy. Just here in Ohio there are enough customers to drive development of better sabot rounds. Mainly I know a LGS owner that talks about shooting 200 yards with their shotgun. And that isn't the only time I've heard it. I don't have a rifled barrel myself but the person who talked about shooting 200 yards is pretty reliable.

 

[KenW.]

My first deer (35 years ago) was a small doe taken with a model 12 Winchester. It had a 30" barrel and a Weaver 2.5X scope. The range was about 80 yards. I was using Brenneke rifled slugs. I am confident I could have taken her out to 125 yards. I don't know about 200; I'd need to study a ballistics chart first.

The shotgun qualification course for my employer used to include a shot from prone to center of mass at 100 yards. With good sights and a steady hold its not hard. I really like Mossberg's ghost ring.

 

[Cee Zee]

Did that Winchester have a rifled barrel Ken? It does make a difference. Brenneke slugs are actually pretty good through a smooth bore. I have shot some pretty accurate to 75 yards with a smooth bore 870. But they work with rifled barrels too. Not many slugs will do both well. I don't know about the ballistics or a sabot or what it takes to kill a deer at 200 yards. I have heard sabot slugs can be fairly accurate to that distance. Again I wouldn't try it personally but if I did some shooting at that distance and saw how accurate they are and I found out what kind of power they have at that distance I might change my mind. I can definitely see killing a deer at 80 yards with a Brenneke slug though. They still have plenty of power at that distance and they are accurate enough too. I've seen that for myself. Obviously there are different levels of Brenneke slugs too. It was the K.O. slugs I shot at 75 yards. And the Black Magic slugs are more powerful obviously. But I just read some info on Brenneke's web site that said both the K.O. and the Black Magic are good for deer out to 100 yards. The thing is those slugs aren't made for long range shooting. They're made for dangerous game. They're very heavy and they have a totally flat front side which means they will lose power faster. I checked Hornady's site and they talk about their SST slugs being accurate to 200 yards and having 1793 ft/lbs of energy at 100 yards I would think that would kill a deer and probably would still have enough power to do so at 200 yards but I don't see any actual data on that. Remember that's a 300 gr. slug delivering that power. Muzzle velocity is 2000 fps. That sure sounds powerful enough to kill a deer at 200 yards but I'd like to see actual ballistic data for that distance.

 

[KenW.]

It did not have a rifled barrel. I shot trap with it also by taking off the scope. Remember, this was some years ago. I don't know there were rifled shotgun barrels then.

 

[USAF_Vet]

"...when the XP3 and SST slugs first came out I shot eight-inch groups with both at 200 yards."

4 MOA from a shotgun is pretty darn good. Isn't that near about the military acceptability for the M-16?

 

[Warp]

4 MOA from a shotgun is pretty darn good. Isn't that near about the military acceptability for the M-16?

Depends, ask them if they shot that MOA over, say, 3 groups of 10 rounds each, or if they had one or two of those infamous 2 or 3 round "groups" that we luck into once in awhile.

 

[USAF_Vet]

I didn't read the article in question, so I don't know.

 

[Warp]

4 MOA is a pretty standard level of acceptability for a fighting rifle from a field position using ball ammo.

 

[Cee Zee]

If you read the article you still won't know. Still the chance of ever getting a group that size is pretty impressive and again, the article is a couple of years old and development has continued at a face pace on sabot slugs.

Here's the link to the article again.

http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/gun-nuts/2012/07/sabot-slugs

Just for the record. There are many, many more stories about the sabot revolution. I just quoted the first one I read.

FWIW I just found this American Hunter article that says some sabots are delivering 1000 ft/lbs of energy at 200 yards. That's plenty to cause expansion and kill a deer.

 

[Warp]

If you read the article you still won't know.

Are you sure about that?

"With it and BRI slugs I shot a 1 7/8” five shot group at 100 yards. That was back in the early 90s and it was a huge deal to shoot a group like that with a slug gun then."

"They shoot five-shot, 100 yard groups from a bench and their record group is .787” made with an 870 with a Hastings rifled barrel, Hastings Laser Accurate slugs and, surprisingly, an Aimpoint red dot."


Additionally, I found this interesting:

"Realistically, you should be thrilled with any gun and slug that groups under 2 ½” at 100 yards with sabot ammunition and there are many that can do it. Maximum responsible range for sabots lies between 125 and 150 yards,"

 

[Cee Zee]

Are you sure about that?

The question was about accuracy at 200 yards. Not 100.

 

[OpticsPlanet]

Shotgun for home defense, AR for everything else.

Tim G.

 

[Warp]

The question was about accuracy at 200 yards. Not 100.

And we were talking about knowing how many rounds constituted a group when you said that.

But the article does specify that information.

 

[Cee Zee]

And we were talking about knowing how many rounds constituted a group when you said that.

"We" were???

 

[Warp]

Correct.

But it seems you were referring to something else that you did not specify.

What would you not know even if you read the article?

 

[Cee Zee]

USAF_Vet asked about the 200 yard group and I responded. You clearly missed his reference and responded about the 100 yard groups, which he did not ask about.

That's it for me on that subject. Nitpicking is not a hobby of mine.

 

[Bizcuits]

My AR-15 next to my glock19 that I've carried for 9 years, are the last guns I'd ever sale. It can be adapted for home defense, can be taken hunting, I could buy an upper to change calibers if I so desired. However, I also live in "Murica, not a place where there is limits on magazines or bullet buttons and stuff. If I lived in California, New York or somewhere else less free I'd definitely sale the AR-15 to avoid legal issues.

 

[Warp]

USAF_Vet asked about the 200 yard group and I responded. You clearly missed his reference and responded about the 100 yard groups, which he did not ask about.

That's it for me on that subject. Nitpicking is not a hobby of mine.

Wait...you thought the article might answer his question about the military's acceptable M16 accuracy?

No wonder it was so confusing without a reference lol, not sure why an article on shotguns would discuss that.

 

[benEzra]

when the XP3 and SST slugs first came out I shot eight-inch groups with both at 200 yards.

I'm sure that's feasible, but that would be from a shotgun configured for relatively long-range shooting, not HD. What is the distance capability of an 18" 870 with a red dot or bead/open sights and a choke optimized for HD? Not knocking the shotgun; a 24" heavy-barreled 16 pound AR-based varmint gun with a 12x scope would certainly be unwieldy for HD as well.

I think a 16" AR and an 18" 12-gauge are both quite versatile, but the degree of versatility depends greatly from one person to another. For example, I don't currently hunt (and if I do at some point it will probably be with a rifle) and I don't shoot clays or anything, so a shotgun *for me* would be pretty much an HD-only tool, aside from maybe shooting steel at the local range. Someone who has a lot of experience with the shotgun and hunts birds and deer with one is going to find the shotgun more versatile than I do, though I suspect many might still end up using different shotguns for different roles.

 

[Cee Zee]

I suspect many might still end up using different shotguns for different roles.

The thing about shotguns is they can be changed quickly from one configuration to another depending on the shotgun. An 870 can go from a short, smooth bore barrel for HD to a long, rifled barrel for 200 yard shooting in a matter of seconds really. It means having more than one barrel obviously but they aren't that expensive and not a lot of firearms have the ability to change so many things so quickly. A long, smooth bore is perfect for clays and birds. A rifled barrel for deer. A short barrel for HD. To me that's versatile. I wouldn't say the shotgun is the best choice for many things it can do but as far as being able to do more things I don't think anything else compares.

Again I've used shotguns to clear branches from trees and to knock dead limbs from trees. You just can't do that with an AR. AR's are very versatile. I just think the shotgun is more versatile. I'm not saying everyone needs one or should want one either. I just think they can do more things and to me that's "all purpose" which is what the thread is about. It won't be the best long range deer slayer but it is in Ohio. It can do that job so that's included in the "all" purpose description which is what I meant when I said shotguns can cover pretty much everything guns normally are used for. They certainly aren't long range sniper weapons unless you consider 200 yards long range (which some people would no doubt).

Again the OP asked about an "all purpose" weapon and there are a few things an AR can't do. The list of things a shotgun can't do is pretty short. Is it the best choice CCW? Heck no but it's been proven it can be done by the likes of Dylan and Klebold. Is it the best HD weapon? Apparently not according to modern conventional wisdom. But it can do those things in a pinch. And it's pretty good at most things.

What is the distance capability of an 18" 870 with a red dot or bead/open sights and a choke optimized for HD?

Conventional wisdom says about 75 yards. That's been the most I've tried with my 870 setup just as you describe. That's using a slug of course which may or may not be the optimal HD choice. But some videos on Youtube would indicate it's possible to go much further with a short barreled 870 and foster slugs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3rfYnfp-RM

 

[12Pump]

To answer the OP specifically about general use:

Let me qualify my answer by first asking what kind of general use? If you're a hunter of birds, a shotgun is a must, so that would rule in favor of the shotgun. If you're a hunter that doesn't hunt birds, then the AR would probably win, due to being better at longer ranges.

Now for tactical purposes: In general HD use, I think the SG is better because of its higher power, not as sharp of muzzle blast, and better PR than an AR rifle with police, prosecuters, and jurors if you are accused of wrongdoing. On the other hand, if all law and order had collapsed, then the AR15 would be my choice because of its simpler operation, higher capacity (against multiple attackers--some of who may be armed with ARs and AKs of their own), and longer range ability if you're defending your property outside of the walls of your home.

All in all, I'd go with the shotgun for HD if hunting at longer ranges is not a factor, and the AR if it is.

 

[justice06rr]

Yes the shotgun can be very accurate to 200 yds with a rifled bore and readily available modern designed slugs (hornadys sst, winchester partions etc). My own personal 870 can keep ssts on a pie plate easily at 200yds. From personal experience, in real life, you don't need more than that. I'm talking real life not "games". It's called practical accuracy.

There is really no contest here, the AR is a fine platform, but it can not hold a candle to the versatility of a even the average pump SG. Think about it, from birds, to small game, to big game, to defense, plinking, and skeet/trap type games. All with out changing barrels too, just types of ammo.

I don't doubt the practicality and versatility of the Shotgun. I have a couple of shotguns myself. I just don't think that the AR "can't hold a candle" to the shotgun's versatility. They are both very good firearms, but usually aimed at different specific uses.

I've read that F&S article about shooting 200yards with a shotgun, but how ideal is that realistically, compared to shooting a rifle at the same distance?
Furthermore, The AR can shoot much further and have an effective range of 600yards. Would a Sabot Slug from a rifled shotgun bore be able to achieve the same range?

Anyway, I'm not taking sides, but just stating that the margin of versatility between both rifles is not that wide. There's a reason why the AR15/M4/M16 is the most popular rifle in the US and is used by many Militaries around the world...