Should Aid be Rendered?

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Werewolf

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The Shooting to Stop thread got me to thinking.

You're in your home. It is late at night. An armed burglar (knife) enters your home. You confront him. Gunfire ensues and you shoot him.

He's hit in the upper thigh and goes down. It is obvious from the amount of bleeding taking place that unless a tourniquet is used the BG will bleed out prior to the police and an ambulance arrive. The BG still has control of his rather large knife and is conscious.

Your wife is present but is very shaken by what has happened. She is competent with a firearm.

What do you do? Attempt to render aid or let him bleed out?

If you attempt to render aid what steps would you take to insure that the BG cannot harm you?

Just to complicate the moral issue - you are not lucky enough to live in a state like OK or CO that shields you from civil liability when a shooting takes place in one's home.
 
I would like to see a statute that mandates giving aid to an assailant. I don't think they exist.

Next, the individual is still in control of a weapon - an unacceptable risk to approach. In fact, failure to get rid of the weapon might be grounds for another shot.

Third, unless you have bio-hazard gear, mucking around in a great deal of a criminal's blood is a significant risk to you and you are not obligated to take it.

Thus, you wait for the law and EMTs at a safe distance.

You have no moral responsibility to aid given the risk.

This is an easy one. No tactical class I've taken has ever suggested that you render aid in such a situation.
 
If he's still waving the knife around he's lucky that he doesn't get shot again. Not that I would plan on doing so if he's flat on his back weakly holding onto the handle & I'm behind something somewhat solid. OTOH he might get shot again if he's up on one elbow, holding it by the blade tip & getting ready to throw it at me :D .

I might toss him a towel & tell him to apply pressure but I'm not trained in that kind of first aid nor do I want to risk getting in a wrestling match with a heavily bleeding criminal.

His best bet is to hope that our local paramedics & police have their usual fast response time (seriously, the one time (medical) that I needed to call 911 the police were here within 3 minutes with the ambulance 1 minute behind them). By the time I could either calm my wife down enough to cover him while I dug around in the garage for something to secure him with or sent her (most likely course of action) out to the garage to find something, the police would already be here. In my situation it is best to just wait for them to show up.
 
All life is precious, even the life of a miscreant who wanted to harm you. You have a responsibility to defend yourself (your life is precious too), but once you're safe you should do everything in your power to help him live.

Call for an ambulance first, so that professional help arrives as soon as possible. Order him to drop the knife. If he refuses, see if you can find a way to disarm him safely. Once he's disarmed, search him for additonal weapons. Hand off your weapon to your wife so that she can cover you, then perform whatever first aid seems appropriate or necessary.

Even if you don't have a concious, it'd be wise to try to help him just for the sake of how it will look once the cops and prosecutors get involved. If he lives, they won't be able to charge you with his murder. If it looks like you really did want him to live, you'll have a much easier time convincing a jury that you're a rational person who only wanted to protect himself and his family, rather than a trigger-happy homicidal maniac.
 
I agree with Greg L, I would toss him a belt or something and tell him to tie it off himself. I do not know what diseases this guy has. I do not not if he is feigning being incapacitated, etc. Not worth the risk. He should have thought of that before he broke into my house.
 
I WOULD render aid, as long as he's disarmed, either by his own doing or my doing.

Just like Thomspon said, all human life is precious. And a Grand Jury will probably look at you a lot more favorably if you allow the BG to live, showing that you're looking to end a threat to you and yours, and not looking to end someone's life.

-SnubFan
 
NO!!!!


I could be used against you in court, maybe not criminal as much as civil.

If you felt so threatened that you needed to shoot him then why, after you shot him wounding him did you approach him and aid him?

Attorneys hungry for insurance money dwell on human actions such as this, that’s why cops are specifically told, instructed and trained to secure the suspect and do nothing further!

Handcuff and cover, protect the scene, if the perp is still alive continue giving verbal commands to lay down, stay on the ground, if help is on the way tell him so, also tell him if he attempts to get up you will shoot him again, remember you were in fear of your life just seconds ago, you used deadly force now you are going to attempt to help this person?

Let him be!

Advise from a cop


TFW
 
Ditto 38snubfan,
Call 911 get the ambulance on the way, first.
Second, throw him a belt with your weak hand. It is the right thing to do. Front site focus on his face. I don't think that you need to get physically involved to help him.
He needs to drop that knife and I don't mean drop, I mean skid it along the floor for you to control. If he bleeds out, you did the best you could.
Afterwards, grill a steak, potatoes, try to eat a salad...salads are supposed to be good for you.
 
I know what cops are told to do ... But for the non-cop -- and anyone who thinks that it's easy to watch someone -- even a bitter enemy -- die, I'd suggest waiting until you've been in the position of taking a life before you say things such as "This is an easy one."

It's a tough call. I suspect my feelings at the time would depend on how angry I still was. I do, however, believe one has a moral obligation to try to save a life. Once the now-victim is rendered hors de combat (and knifeless), I think I might try to ensure that I had the satisfaction of sitting in a courtroom watching while the sentence was pronounced. Plus, my wife is an RN with ER/trauma center experience who wouldn't be able to watch even the worst criminal die if she was capable of aid ...

By the way, in the military, we do have our medical personnel treat the enemy wounded (after ours are treated) prior to processing them as prisoners-of-war.
 
38,

You might want to think "rendering aid" through.

If he's conscious, armed or disarmed, I'm merely covering. Tossing a towel so he can do some self-aid? Maybe, if he disarms.

He TRIED TO HURT you! Do you think after you injured him he would be more or less prone to try to hurt you again.

You get close enough to render aid, even if he is disarmed, and you are close enough to have the tables turned on you. Now you are hurt and/or dead, and he can now continue to do what he wants (limited by his wounds) to you and yours.

You aren't psychic to determine what is a crippling wound or a bloody winging, you aren't qualified to tell at a glance if he's really out or merely shamming.

Your wife is not a cop to provide "cover" while you treat him, and you are not Superman to control his actions while with two hands you try to stem his blood flow.

Your only moral and legal obligation is to call 911 and not leave him to bleed out. Realistically, if he appears at all mobile and doesn't disarm, that means he's still in the fight and, in my home, he may be receiving more fire. If he's immobile and armed, he's being covered til the cops/EMTs arrive.

Disease and risk to self and your love ones are too great otherwise. Those potential risks morally DEMAND that you not expose yourself or them to further potential danger.

Remember, HE chose to create the situation, he's on the hook for his fate, not you.
 
Throw him a belt with a weak hand. So you send your wife for a belt or you take off your pants?

Given that you really don't know if he is incapacitated, while the wife is away the guy takes you out and then goes for her.

This really is very silly. You need to maintain control until the law gets there and you need not to put each other at risk.

The wife is an EMT and approaches the guy who just happened to have a BUG in his pocket.

I will repeat again that for a civilian you do not have some comic book morality decision, This is life and death for you and your family. You have had a righteous shoot and called for help. That's all there is.

Carebear had a great analysis.
 
Weasel and shermac, thank you for putting me back in my reality check!

The reason for my reply is based on my respect for human life. Then again, if someone is in my home trying to hurt and/or kill me or my family, then I've already lost respect for that scumbag's life.

If he bleeds out and dies before an ambulance arrives, it's because of God's will; and I'm no man to mess with the Will of God!

Weasel: As far as the handcuffing thing goes, I don't know many of us here who keep a pair of handcuffs in our homes (leave out those used for things other than restraining SUSPECTS! lol :evil: :uhoh: :D - OK that was wrong - Sorry!). I do, but like you, it's because it's part of my job to carry two pairs of cuffs at work. Even if everyone did, do they have the proper training in technique to use them effectively and properly?

Sorry to get off on another tangent. I just smell another lawsuit coming for pinching the BGs wrist nerve or tearing through his flesh with a pair of cuffs applied too tightly or incorrectly.

-Snub
 
Here’s something else to take into consideration.

911 calls go out for a shooting or a radio call goes out for a cop involved shooting of a B/G, EMS is asked to respond.

The first thing EMS is going to ask its dispatch, is the scene safe?

Meaning is the aggressor in custody is any known weapons secure.

If the pros won’t get involved until the person has been secured and rendered unarmed why should you?

I have had on several occasions EMS call out they were in the area down the street while we cleared a house to look for more B/G’s or took the injured person into custody before they would proceed to the scene.

You are under no obligation to do anything but protect yourself and your family, if that means you watch a person bleed out on your hallway floor then so be it, he made his decision to disregard his life when he choose to unlawfully enter your home.

And yes I have watched suspects bleed out while EMS was responding, the one which jumps into my mind was shot by a pair of State Troopers last year we held him at gun point until K-9 arrived. The perp refused to toss his gun out the window so we let Rin Tin Tin drag him out of the car for us.

He was pronounced DRT at the scene.

I loose no sleep and his ghost does not haunt me for what I did, he made a conscious choice to disregard his life when he dragged a trooper with his car on a traffic stop then attempted to shoot another one after they stopped his car just yards from his home.
 
i have two answers for this.

first, i am not a doctor. i dont play one on tv, nor do i impersonate one on the internet. i can call 911 to get an ambulance there. the FD is 4 stones throws and one hard kick away. they can respond in under 5 minutes.

while my intention is to stop threats it is not to kill them or simply do nothing.


my second answer is that this is actually a trick question. i imagine my uber-supercalifragilisticoompaloompapoppasmurf-training will kick in and i'll wind up firing to slidelock.
 
It’s funny you mentioned firing to slide lock.

We recently attended an officer survival-training event put on by a local LE Agency and we had a range session where the instructor had us shoot a threat from a distance of 10 feet. He told us he wanted to see our reaction to a perceived threat; he gave no other instructions, just line ready?

GUN!!!!!!

I drew and emptied the mag 16 rounds worth.

All the other shooters cleared leather and fired either 2 or 3 rounds, just like you do on the GDAC course four times a year.

He asked me why I did it, I responded that is the way I will react to a threat, I will shoot till the threat is down/stopped or I’m out of ammo.

That was exactly what he wanted to get across to all in the class; in combat you will default to your level of training.
 
Every tactical class I've ever taken has said NO--do not attempt to give aid.

I'm guessing that's because:

1. Bad guy could still be a threat.
2. Giving aid could show that you regret your actions (meaning, you shouldn't have shot him.)
 
He's hit in the upper thigh and goes down. It is obvious from the amount of bleeding taking place that unless a tourniquet is used the BG will bleed out prior to the police and an ambulance arrive. The BG still has control of his rather large knife and is conscious.
He still has control of the knife? Smart thing to do is to shoot him again, and repeat until he is either unconscious or has lost control of the knife. An armed BG is a threat as long as he is awake and mobile.

I don't know if I would shoot the bad guy again - I haven't talked to my attorney about this particular situation.

What do you do? Attempt to render aid or let him bleed out?
It is way too risky to approach the BG, for any reason. Sorry.

Just to complicate the moral issue - you are not lucky enough to live in a state like OK or CO that shields you from civil liability when a shooting takes place in one's home.
There really is no moral issue here, although the legal one is tricky. The BG broke into my house. He presented a deadly threat to my life. Morally, I'm justified in using deadly force. The fact that it takes him a few minutes to die doesn't seem all that relevant.

- Chris
 
Nope.
Do you think if he stabbed you, your wife or your kid while you slept that he would have given them aid?

He knew the risks when he stepped over the threshhold of your home.
 
i was trained and have practiced double taps when it has come to firing my weapon i would be disapointed with myself if i missed one and hit him in the leg with the other :scrutiny:. i am one of the niceset guys i know until you threaten me or my family, ESPECIALLY my family. in a bad situation i will very likely risk my life for you and not even have to think about it. but you come in my house and theaten my family and i'll see you in the next life :fire:
 
Let the guy bleed.

No. 1 He still has a knife
No. 2 He's only been shot in the thigh and can still fight
No. 3 I'm sure he's pretty pissed at you for shooting him
No. 4 He's a criminal, broke into my home weapon in hand; killing him would be justified under the law

I would tell the guy if he tried to get up, he would be shot again. Then call 911 and let the paramedics/cops deal with him.
 
The following is all my opinion:

Sorry this will be long. Yet to the point. In my opinion, I find it pretty poor tactical thinking on anyone's part who would consider giving this thug aid under the scenario that was explained. I believe that aid should not even cross your mind at the point where it was left off for you to decide your next actions.

You have an armed intruder in your home; he has been shot or so you think. You are covering him with firearm at the ready. He has been shot in the thigh - and supposedly you can see this! Not a big chance of that, maybe you watch too many movies but my guess is that it is night, sort of dark in your abode and for all you know the guy just twisted his leg and fell or, maybe he cut himself with that knife. Are you sure he was shot, are you sure he is even bleeding, maybe you shot his accomplice (the one you did not see who is lying outside your window dead) and the guy still inside on your floor is faking because he got bloodied - think about that. Yet, I will play along and say ok you can tell you shot him in the thigh. You can also tell he is bleeding a lot. The thing is though that unless the blood is spurting from the wound with every heartbeat - you cannot tell that an artery was hit and cannot figure that a tourniquet is needed to save his life - so why even surmise that such is the case?

You have no way of telling if it is a life threatening wound or a grazing surface wound that is bleeding badly in that type of scenario unless maybe he is wearing shorts or is naked. Even then you do not know the extent of the damage. Add to that he is still holding the knife, he is obviously conscious. Why is he still holding that knife? He could be howling like a banshee too - so what. Maybe he is a cry baby, maybe he is diverting your attention. Most break ins, burglaries, armed robberies, strong arm jobs and so forth are carried out by more than one person. There is often another guy or two or even three involved. You may not see them, but they may be in your home and you are worrying about giving this guy first aid! He is still holding a knife, he has not been neutralized (I do not mean killed, but neutralized as far as a threat goes) and you are concerned as to whether he needs first aid; that is sweet of you but you had better make sure you are ok and safe first. Your wife is present, and possibly still in harm's way, as are you potentially still in harm's way.

First off, get distance and cover between you and the bad guy - both you and your wife. You want this between you and the bad guy in case he gets up and charges you, or in case he pulls out a Roscoe and starts firing. As you move to cover, order the bad guy to drop the knife, to slowly put his hands up high so you can see them and, to shut up and listen to you. Disregard his screams of pain and cries for assistance - it could be a deadly ruse, it could be real - that is not your concern while he is still armed and the house has not been cleared. Also make sure to scan the area or have your wife scan the area, look for other threats. Does the bad guy have friends with him. Does the bad guy have a firearm? Does he have anything else to hurt you? Don't just look, listen too.

Once you determine that he is at least less of a threat because he has dropped the knife, you keep him covered. By the way, how close to him is that knife? Have him toss it to the side away from him and you (why chance him throwing it at you).

Do not hand the gun to your wife. You are in control at this point and handing that away gun is a momentary opportunity for the bad guy to attack or to try to escape. In the confusion you or your wife could be shot as the gun goes from one to another. Instead, calmly ask your wife: "Are you injured?" Be rude to her and do not look at her while talking to her, keep your eyes on the bad guy and his hands with an occasional quick glance around the room. Do not allow yourself to get tunnel vision. Have her check herself for injuries and then check you - as you keep your eyes and firearm trained on the bad guy. Have your wife turn on some lights if possible in a safe manner. Then look around for threats again. As you do all this bear in mind even if you did not call the police a neighbor may have done so, they may be coming in soon, be aware of that.

Once you think you are fairly ok, and think the situation is fairly under control, take it one step further, give this order in a loud commanding voice: OK we know you are here too, we heard you moving. When I give the order, come out slowly with your hands raised high above your heads do it one at a time and remember we are armed. When ready give the command: "OK come out now one at a time slowly with hands held high. Move to the far side of the room from my wife and I and sit on the floor hands on your heads. We will not shoot if you do as we say." (Note you keep saying the "WE", this is to make them think you are both armed.) Then wait a minute or two to see what happens. If no one comes out, so what; if someone else is there and comes out hands up or, if someone runs out your back door to escape, won't you be happily surprised. If no none else was there - who cares.

If others came out, look for weapons from your vantage point, but do not approach them. Tell them you see the weapon, or the bulge and to keep their hands on their heads. Have them face away from you. They do not need to see that the wife is unarmed. You do not need to see their eyes at this point, only their hands. Once the situation is at this point and somewhat under control, have your wife make a call to the police if not already done - hopefully you already did this from the bedroom and, hopefully you told the police exactly what you and your wife looked like and you made sure they understood that was how the good guys were dressed!

Note how the husband has been the one giving commands. Only one person does that. Note how the wife has been carrying out orders, this keeps her busy and keeps her from panic as it also keeps you from panic. Remember it could be reversed with the wife holding the gun and giving orders, and the husband doing the other things - no real difference there. Do not argue over who does what. Have a plan ahead of time, discuss this type of thing and make a plan and practice it at least a few times a year.

Chances are the cops are there by now. They are outside waiting to come in and are ordering things to be done. You do not want to be pointing a gun at them by mistake. Stay calm, talk to them even before they come in. Let them know who you are and how many, tell them that you are armed and have a wounded and potentially armed and potentially still dangerous suspect. Ask what to do and follow there instructions. Adrenaline will be pumping fast and furious. You will be nervous even if you do not realize it - so will the cops. When it is over, once the bad guy is really under control and in the back of the police car you should immediately ask for medical aid to be rendered to you and your wife in a hospital and, also ask for an attorney. Make no statements to the police except for personal history information such as name and date of birth. You are not being a bad guy, just a smart victim. Politely tell the officers that you will probably talk to them after speaking to an attorney, but right now you need to go to a hospital because you want medical attention due to your not feeling well - and believe me you will not be feeling all that well if this really happens to you - even if you are the winners. After any such shooting, you should also seek immediate psychological counseling. You may not think you need it but, the sooner you get it the less likely you are to suffer post traumatic stress related problems.

If that one bad guy was the only one there, and if he bled out while you checked and tried to assure for your safety because you were still in fear of serious bodily harm or death, well in my mind that is tough noogies for him. My guess is that it probably would stay that way in criminal court and even in a civil court too so long as you could truly explain that you took the actions you took to assure for your safety and that of your family and you reasonably feared for your safety at that time - in other words you were scared and did what you did to protect yourself in a bad situation and you waited for the police and medical teams to assist the bad guy. Note this: As this situation was explained, if you were not fearful of possible serious bodily harm or death at the hands of this lowlife thug while he still held that knife and; if you were not fearful or at least cautious enough to scan to look for other threats in your home; and if you did not take the time to secure yourselves from harm and then call for the police, well then I think you need to reconsider the whole scene because at any moment you, or your wife, could have been killed in a heartbeat because of your carelessness and bravado. Of course, maybe all was well at the point in the original scenario where you thought you had to make up your mind about aid, but the fact of the matter, as I see it, is that the point where such a decision would have to have been considered was not yet arrived at as described. You had lots of work to do before getting to that point.

Oh, did I forget to mention, if he had not dropped the knife when ordered to do so, and if he seemed a real and immediate threat to my life or, if it seemed reasonable that he was about to cause me serious bodily harm at that moment (such as if he waved the knife menacingly or thrust it out toward me within close proximity; or if he was within about 25-30 feet and if he tried to get up with knife in hand, or made as if to throw it at me or my wife, I would not hesitate to shoot him as I moved to cover as long as my wife was not in the line of fire and; of course, I would shoot to stop. If he died as a result of my shooting to stop, which means I would have been shooting at the best available target area such as a possible center mass double tap and one to the head type thing, well so be it. I did not instigate the affair, he did. I simply defended my life.

Bear in mind that was just all my opinion. If you want to keep a gun in your home for self defense, get some decent training on how to use the gun and on how to act in life threatening situations. Then practice it again and again.


Safe shooting,
Glenn B
 
Uh, go run a Tueller Drill out on a range, and then ask the question again.

People with two healthy legs can cover six or seven yards, (that's 18 or 21 feet) before a person with a gun in his or her hands can put two rounds into a target.

How wide is your living room? Measured it?

Even with a bullet through one leg, a determined person could probably cover at least three or four yards (nine or 12 feet) before a defender armed with a gun could put a round on target.

If dude's still got the knife in his hand in my house, he's liable to get the next round right through his forehead if he doesn't drop that knife the second or third time I demand he drop it.

No way I render aid. I call 911, or have my wife do it, and keep dirtbag covered.

Of course, if he broke into my house, he's not got a bullet in his leg. He's got a charge of 00 12 gauge buckshot in what's left of his leg. Probably hard to put a tourniquet around bloody hamburger anyway.

hillbilly
 
The knife is probably just what he used to get in the house. His gun would be in his belt or pocket. He probably didn't come alone either.
 
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