Shoot, let go, or detain

[DRMMR02]

When and if you encounter a mugger or home invader, do you immediately shoot him, or give him a chance to react? And if you give him the chance to react, do you allow him to run off, or do you attempt to keep him there until the police arrive? Also, how does you state's brandishing laws affect your decision? What if the mugger/burglar is unarmed? What if he has a knife? A bat or crowbar? A gun?

I was reading the "have you ever had to draw" thread, and out of the 5 pages or so of responses, it doesn't seem than anyone actually had to fire their weapons. The presence of a gun in their hands was usually enough to stop the attack. It also seems that in most of those responses, the BG was able to escape, possibly waiting for another victim.

Do you feel any obligation to go further than self/family-preservation? If you have ended the threat to your life(or the lives of others), is the situation over for you? Or would you go beyond that and keep the BG there under the barrel until the Police arrive?

 

[Odd Job]

I can only comment on this as a South African, from the point of view that the guy has broken into my home.
I'll keep him there on the ground, and I won't let him up until the police come. I will tell the police that I suspect the man has a weapon in one pocket and my belongings in another.

I definitely won't let him go if he has broken in. He may have an accomplice outside, and now I have shown my hand. Also, these guys are typically rapists and murderers and I think it is fair that he goes through the system. It saves the police looking for him later.

 

[1911 guy]

In general,

Shoot if my life or that of my family is being threatened.
I don't get paid enough to try to detain folks. That can get ugly.
If he tries to run, I'd better memorize his/her description fast.

Every situation is fluid and may provide leeway to these ideas, but those are my general rules.

 

[Just_a_dude_with_a_gun]

To avoid 'trouble' in general is the rule. For a mugging, to detain would be beneficial while calling police, but is not always possible, or your best option. If I see a gun = I shoot, a knife = 'drop it, or I shoot' while backing up.

Of course this only matters if you had enough distance to draw and deter / act. if he was armed and already upon you before you realized it, best to let the cash go, and call the police. Unfortunately, in a situation where you were not vigilant enough to see it coming and inconspicuously draw, you are prey, and are at their mercy. Sadly, there is a good chance they'll try to kill you, just in their attempt to make sure they get away with a measley robbery. Makes absolutely no sense to me

Home invasion is a different story. If the door is kicked in, to me, that screams "I'm a violent person" and they're going to get shot, unless they're already running away.

 

[ZeSpectre]

That's a hard question to answer because it is so dependent on the situation. My guideline/training runs along these lines.

Encounter on the street
-Mugger(s) gets the drop on me, co-operate and watch/hope for a chance to either escape or turn the tables. If he/she runs off I will try to memorize description but will let them go because any other action just isn't worth the social fallout.

Encounter on my own property
-Anyone breaking into my house had better realize they are risking their lives in general though I would most likely start by makeing a loud announcement down the stairwell that the police are on the way and they (the intruder) should just leave now. If after all of that they decide to come upstairs anyway, well that's someone who just wants to commit suicide because at that point I will defend myself and my family and deal with the social fallout later.

(EDIT- edited reply to be more clear after mod's "bloodlust" comment)

 

[hso]

Everyone, Please remember the "bloodlust" note stickyed above.

I'll give my opinion on a couple of points.

You do not know what weapons a criminal may or may not be carrying. They may or may not be in the open where you can see them.

It is very dangerous to try to hold a violent criminal for the police. Doing so puts you and your family at risk every moment you are waiting.

 

[DRMMR02]

That's the root of my question. If the criminal is so dangerous, why let him go? He may run away, and 20 minutes later, end up knifing some poor sap who was unarmed, unlike me.

So a further question is, what do you do when you are with other people, like family? What about if you're by yourself?

For me, if a criminal is deadly enough to warrant me drawing on him, I'm not gonna let him strike the next guy who walks by after I leave. Getting him off the street and into police hands is worth the heightened risk to me, if I'm alone and don't have to worry about others.

I know we're not legally obligated to do anything. But everyone has their own level of moral/ethical/personal obligation that might go beyond the legal minimum.

 

[tellner]

DRMM02, in the US the law is only on your side if you shoot him to neutralize an immediate threat. If you kill someone because of what he might do later you are a murderer and will be treated as one by the authorities. There are some specific exceptions (Tennessee vs. Garner and so on), but generally if he's running away or otherwise no longer a problem for you at this moment the law says no.

"I'm not gonna let him strike the next guy" will get you time in jail. What's worse, the prosecutor will find out that you told hundreds of people you were going to do this. Yes, even government employees read tha Intrawebs. It will be considered evidence of premeditation, your intention to break the law and your reckless disregard for human life.

 

[David904]

I don't believe that in America we have powers of arrest unless you are a sworn police officer. That being said... If the criminal refuses to stay put and leaves despite my admonishments to not move, I'll just keep him covered and memorize his or her face to the best of my ability and await the arrival of the police. He's free to go.

I'd never shoot someone unless the situation absolutely demands it. If I feel that the situation is so bad that I need to draw my firearm, it is going to be for keeps. However, the situation could suddenly deescalate once I produce a pistol and I would then have no need to shoot the individual. I'm certainly not advocating brandishing (at least I hope that is not what I am doing) but just because your gun clears leather you shouldn't be on auto-pilot. Pulling the trigger should be a deliberate action - and absolutely of last resort. I may be fully legally justified in shooting somebody, but if I can avoid it, I will.

 

[DRMMR02]

"I'm not gonna let him strike the next guy" will get you time in jail. What's worse, the prosecutor will find out that you told hundreds of people you were going to do this. Yes, even government employees read tha Intrawebs. It will be considered evidence of premeditation, your intention to break the law and your reckless disregard for human life.

Except I wasn't talking about shooting anyone. I was talking about holding them there until the police arrive. Try reading people's posts a little more thoroughly.

And David, Citizens Arrest is a very real and established procedure. While not often used, and not recommended due to the average citizen not having any idea what they are doing, it is legal.

 

[David904]

Maybe so, but I highly doubt that I would detain anyone unless (possibly - and I would have to ask someone in the legal field about this) I witnessed a violent felony - rape, murder, etc.

 

[Lonestar]

I have a 2 story house. If someone is downstair robbing my home, I'll call 911 and secure the upstairs with my handgun. If the guy comes up the stairs with a weapon, I feel I need to shoot him. He knows the house is occupied (cars parked in the driveway, etc), if he is coming upstairs he intends to do my family harm. If he decides to come the stairs unarmed, I will say, "Stop or I will shoot" , if he continues I shoot, If he freezes I'll hold him there until police arrives, If he run...I let him go, but remember his face for a police description.

With a Mugging I like dude with a gun's formula, if practical

To avoid 'trouble' in general is the rule. For a mugging, to detain would be beneficial while calling police, but is not always possible, or your best option. If I see a gun = I shoot, a knife = 'drop it, or I shoot' while backing up.

 

[hso]

For me, if a criminal is deadly enough to warrant me drawing on him, I'm not gonna let him strike the next guy who walks by after I leave. Getting him off the street and into police hands is worth the heightened risk to me, if I'm alone and don't have to worry about others.

I don't think that's a good idea. You're only justified in using deadly force to protect yourself or others from an immediate or known threat. Some theoretical later threat to an unknown 3rd party would seem to fail that test. In an effort to protect that theoretical unknown 3rd party you put yourself in greater physical danger and at greater legal risk. What's the personal motivation for doing so? It isn't fear, so our first test of whether you've used your weapon properly looks like it fails.

It may be satisfying or feel like a service to community, but it's a huge risk to take in every sense and should be thought through carefully weighing everything you could loose based on the decision.

 

[Geronimo45]

A mugger gets it as soon as I clear leather.
HD - if he's sneaking around, I'll warn. If he's charging in, I'll send 230 grains of lead charging back at him.
Blood stains are very difficult to get out of carpet, after all. As for hold-let go, I'd opt for holding. I'm in the city, in a good part of town, in an apartment complex next to major roads. Response time ought to be pretty quick.

 

[bubbygator]

{His lawyer}: If you considered him to be a "deadly threat" to you, why didn't you pull the trigger?

I'm with a few others here - either I shoot him or he walks & it's the law's job to pick him up.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

shoot, let go, detain

I know of four threat chase-offs and one threat detained for arrest
in self defense cases. All these cases involved women who I know.
Three threats were given the option of retreat and took it; in
one case the woman held the threat off at gun point so she
could safely retreat. The one detained for arrest by officers
was caught in the floorboard of the victims' car and had a
screwdriver: he decided to wait for the nice officers to arrive
rather than try anything from his position.

First choice is to let go: allow the threat to go away.
If with retreat available, the threat presses the attack,
shoot if reasonably in fear of death or greivous bodily harm.
Our state attorney general did not want to see
defensive gun users trying citizen's arrest armed when
I took the self defense law class as part of the handgun
carry permit certification. Detaining a threat is not a
viable option for most of us ordinary citizens.

To answer another thread, in none of these cases would I
recommend the defender attempting to handcuff the threat.
Why that subject keeps popping up is a mystery.

To answer an academic who doubted Kleck's finding that
40+% of defensive gun users are female because only
~20% of gun owners are female: in two of these cases, the
women owned the guns they used to defend themselves,
while in two cases the women used guns owned by male
friends.

 

[Cosmoline]

The only time you should shoot anyone is if they are presenting an IMMINENT and UNLAWFUL threat of DEADLY FORCE. Learn it, love it, live it.

If the guy drops his weapon and boldly runs away, LET HIM RUN. You are not a cop.

If the criminal is so dangerous, why let him go? He may run away, and 20 minutes later, end up knifing some poor sap who was unarmed, unlike me.

So what? You have no duty or right to protect unknown third parties who MIGHT be endangered if the nut HAPPENS to attack them. More to the point, you have no right to use deadly force to detain bupkus. An LEO generally does, and they're trained on the limits of this force. But civilians should not mess with it.

 

[Mannlicher]

the best reply seems to be the one that goes:
shoot if you or your family is in immediate danger of harm
let him walk (or run) if he is not presenting a danger of bodily harm. Try to remember where he went, and what he was wearing, what he looked like, and so on.
I don't get paid to 'detain' criminals.

 

[roy berkeley]

Here in VT, a householder is legally justified in using deadly force against an intruder whether or not the intruder is armed. there is no "duty to retreat". As a consequence, (a direct consequence, IMO) there are very few "hot" burglaries (burglaries of occupied dwellings) in VT.
Roy Berkeley

 

[gunsmith]

Every citizen has arrest powers!

In fact it's called "citizens arrest".
The last home invasion robbery I was in ended up with me being stabbed after I cooperated.
I will treat the next one as a threat to my life.

 

[Cosmoline]

Gunsmith--those are two totally different issues. If the guy is trying to stab you, it sounds like he was presenting an imminent and unlawful threat of deadly force. But that has NOTHING to do with whether or not you should take it on yourself to force the criminal to stay put and not run away. Indeed trying to be a cop and arrest just increases your chance of getting hurt.

 

[meef]

Color me callous.

I carry to protect me and mine in the (pray unlikely) event of a deadly force threat on either, and to stop that threat with the lowest application of force possible. For that reason only.

I am neither a cop nor a hero, nor do I play either on TV or in my fantasies.

There might be situations where I would step outside my stated parameters, but I do not seek them, dwell on them or ever hope to encounter them.

I leave the world of Walter Mitty to those more inclined.

 

[justatexasboy]

I have only had to draw once. Luckily the guy decided to run. I let the cops handle it from there.

One thing I was taught a long time ago.... never draw a gun if you dont intend to use it or if you dont think you could use it.

I would not have tried to detain the person because that would almost certainly resulted in my having to shoot him. My intent in drawing was to stop the threat to my family. When he turned and ran he was no longer a threat.

 

[Shweboner]

In my house, if someone enters without my permission and I do not know them... There are only two options: Leave, or Die.


I will warn them that if they are not gone on the next two seconds, I will fire.

The logic: Once they know I am armed, pointing a gun at them, threatening to kill... If they do not leave immediately, it says to me that they are there for more than a PS3.

In other words, if they do not back down from the threat of death, something more serious is afoot, most likely endangering my life and that of my pregnant wife and baby girl. In this situation if I dont see asses and elbows, its go time.

When my wife is home alone, the same applies. If they dont leave, they die.

 

[RioShooter]

Except I wasn't talking about shooting anyone. I was talking about holding them there until the police arrive. Try reading people's posts a little more thoroughly.

What if they just walk away. Are you going to use lethal force to hold them.