Should I start drinking?

[Suburban Redneck]

I've got an interesting question, it falls into the don't answer the phone when your
buddy has been out drinking.
So anyway, I figured I'd ask some people with more experience than myself.
My friend has a Ruger PC9 and a Kimber 9mm.
It seems he's been buying 124gr. for the Kimber and 115gr. for the rifle. He claims the 115 has a higher muzzle velocity so it should be better in a rifle, and the old 'slow and fat .45cal' theory should apply to his Kimber, heavier bullet, etc.
And I sitting here at midnight wondering if I should start drinking so I can get up to speed.
Can anybody shed some light on this, is he right?

 

[.455_Hunter]

No. Nine grains doesn't make a lot of difference. I do like 124 gr loads just because they tend to be loaded a bit hotter (Winchester 9mm NATO) and tend to print closer to POA for me in service pistols.

 

[film495]

115 grain 9mm hums out of a PCC from my experience shooting steel plates with it and you can just tell it hit way harder than 9mm from a pistol, and harder than .45 ACP from a 1911. Think we were just shooting at 25 yards to try things out and we all noticed it and were surprised. Difference between 115 and 124, probably would be hard to notice, but I agree with the theory.

 

[.38 Special]

I don't think the "different bullet weight for long gun vs. short gun" makes much sense, but I will say that anyone who hasn't taken up drinking during the last couple of years simply has not been paying attention.

 

[Demi-human]

Makesh plurfect scents to me.
(Hic)
Bigger boolets are for pishtols cuz they’re shmaller…

Unless they’re not. Coz then they would be.


Unless he was handloading lighter, shorter bullets into a case with slower powder to maximize powder burn in a long barrel or to power a compensator with more gas volume.

(I’m sure it’s the first one.)

 

[AJC1]

Running one bullet to limit supplies and double the order. There is an energy vs sectional density argument that in 9mm is lame.

 

[jmr40]

Bullets are designed to work best within a range of impact velocities. Too slow, or too fast and they might not perform properly. Shooting steel plates is fun, but has no correlation to SD. IMO 115 gr ammo from a carbine is going to be too fast to perform well. I'd prefer 147 gr in the carbine and either 124 or 147 in the handgun. That will give you the impact speeds you need for optimum performance.

For practice I use the cheapest that I can find and that is usually 115 gr ball ammo. For shooting targets terminal performance isn't a concern. But for SD 124 or 147 gr +P. Traditionally 115 gr HP ammo gives poor penetration and over expansion, and 147 gr ammo often impacts too slow to expand from handguns, although penetration is good. A 124 gr 9mm bullet at 1200-1300 fps is a pretty safe bet for both adequate penetration and expansion.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I don't think the "different bullet weight for long gun vs. short gun" makes much sense, but I will say that anyone who hasn't taken up drinking during the last couple of years simply has not been paying attention.

I can’t drink. Heart meds.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I've got an interesting question, it falls into the don't answer the phone when your
buddy has been out drinking.
So anyway, I figured I'd ask some people with more experience than myself.
My friend has a Ruger PC9 and a Kimber 9mm.
It seems he's been buying 124gr. for the Kimber and 115gr. for the rifle. He claims the 115 has a higher muzzle velocity so it should be better in a rifle, and the old 'slow and fat .45cal' theory should apply to his Kimber, heavier bullet, etc.
And I sitting here at midnight wondering if I should start drinking so I can get up to speed.
Can anybody shed some light on this, is he right?

Germany: 9mm Schmeisser and 9mm Luger
USA: .45 Thompson and .45 1911A1

Who won that one?

Just because I can’t drink anymore don’t mean I forgot everything I ever knew about drunk logic.

 

[Jim Watson]

I always thought the point of a PCC was common ammunition for handgun and carbine, like my .44-40 CAS "set."
But lots of modernical shooters keep different 9mms for pistol and rifle.

 

[edwardware]

The 115gr bullet can be made to move faster than the 124gr, at the same pressure. . . but not much. Everything else he said is hooie.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I always thought the point of a PCC was common ammunition for handgun and carbine, like my .44-40 CAS "set."
But lots of modernical shooters keep different 9mms for pistol and rifle.

A very good point! I admit I do have loads just for the M77/44 that take advantage of the stronger bolt action, and those loads are also in large rifle brass to compensate for the longer, stronger firing pin. But those loads work fine in the RSBH 7-1/2” and the loads optimized for the revolver work fine in the carbine. But I agree with your point completely.

 

[entropy]

I don't think the "different bullet weight for long gun vs. short gun" makes much sense, but I will say that anyone who hasn't taken up drinking during the last couple of years simply has not been paying attention.

I paid attention to alcohol to the point I almost lost my family. I have the odd near beer now and again, and some Fre (alcohol removed) wine on special occasions, but I've been sober for 21 years and even COVID, Brandon, nor Putin is going to change that.

As for 115 vs. 124, I shot which ever one I had in my 9mm pistols, just varied the hold as needed. So far, just 115 through my new G2c, works fine, groups well enough.

 

[Mark_Mark]

I paid attention to alcohol to the point I almost lost my family. I have the odd near beer now and again, and some Fre (alcohol removed) wine on special occasions, but I've been sober for 21 years and even COVID, Brandon, nor Putin is going to change that.

As for 115 vs. 124, I shot which ever one I had in my 9mm pistols, just varied the hold as needed. So far, just 115 through my new G2c, works fine, groups well enough.

the question of why 124 when there is 115 will drive you to drinking. Then 147 came to the picture and that makes sense. I bet it has to do with .380 or 9 Mak

 

[Wreck-n-Crew]

Limiting factors apply to any and all calibers when it comes to bullet weight. What determines the best energy for a caliber is the powder. Especially in a carbine. Then there is bullet design.

I have gotten as much as 400fps faster velocities with a 9mm carbine over a 4.5” pistol using a slower powder. While other powders ( fast) only gave me a smidge over 100fps increase. All using the same bullet weights.

What does it all mean? Not a lot. Faster does not mean more accurate or more energy. The truth is (last i checked) 9mm hollow points are designed to produce the best result between certain velocities.

It is a known fact that if you drive them too fast they will expand much quicker and slow down even faster and penetrate less. The opposite happens with velocities that are too slow. They don't expand and act nore like a FMJ to some degree. Also if they fall below the design they don't expand as quick as design or as much and defeats the whole purpose of the design.

Now if your planning on maintaining energy to a further distance so that the bullet is still at optimal velocity for penetration and expansion then you may be better off with a lighter bullet. However its still not going optimal results at closer distances where its going too fast.

Again keep in mind powder is what drives this whole thing. If he is not using a slow powder then the gain from a carbine is Negligible.

If you want more energy from the muzzle and still be most effective at distance your better off with a slow powder and a heavy bullet like a 147gr. Not a 124 or 115.

This is all assuming of course the gun will be used for such things as hollow points and sd at a longer than pistol average range.

There are a ton of test videos and reviews on ballistics and testing but not as many on bullets that are too fast. For the the few that are they prove the design of the bullet is not to be shot at higher velocities with optimal results. They also show that if its too fast it actually expands too quick and doesn't penetrate as much.

Hope this helps.

 

[lordpaxman]

And I sitting here at midnight wondering if I should start drinking so I can get up to speed.

Absafrickinlutely.
I used to tend bar, it was always interesting trying to engage in conversation when one side was inebriated and the other wasn’t. The conversation always goes easier when both sides are equal.
Your buddy already figured out the gun will tell you what it likes. Call him the gun whisperer and he’ll be happy. You could mess with him a little and tell him there might be more than one bullet gun combination and he’s got to try them all to be sure. Good luck.

 

[kcofohio]

I've got an interesting question, it falls into the don't answer the phone when your
buddy has been out drinking.
So anyway, I figured I'd ask some people with more experience than myself.
My friend has a Ruger PC9 and a Kimber 9mm.
It seems he's been buying 124gr. for the Kimber and 115gr. for the rifle. He claims the 115 has a higher muzzle velocity so it should be better in a rifle, and the old 'slow and fat .45cal' theory should apply to his Kimber, heavier bullet, etc.
And I sitting here at midnight wondering if I should start drinking so I can get up to speed.
Can anybody shed some light on this, is he right?

Did they have CNN on at the bar again?

 

[kalielkslayer]

I don’t know but I’m gonna find out.

When things were at their very worst 12-15 months ago, I snatched up many 9mm bullets without thought about what their best use would be. Included in that was 1,000 147 gr HPs.

I have two dealers trying to find me a PCC. When I get it, my first experiment will be with those 147s. I may be wrong but I believe the heavier bullet makes more sense in the longer barrel.

But until that happens, I don’t really know.

 

[AJC1]

I don’t know but I’m gonna find out.

When things were at their very worst 12-15 months ago, I snatched up many 9mm bullets without thought about what their best use would be. Included in that was 1,000 147 gr HPs.

I have two dealers trying to find me a PCC. When I get it, my first experiment will be with those 147s. I may be wrong but I believe the heavier bullet makes more sense in the longer barrel.

But until that happens, I don’t really know.

Well the 147 makes a ton more sense if you ever plan to suppress your pcc.

 

[kalielkslayer]

Not as long as I live here. But you never know.

 

[Bcwitt]

Yes, you should definitely start drinking.

 

[Mark_Mark]

Well the 147 makes a ton more sense if you ever plan to suppress your pcc.

every time I read PCC my mind reads something else

 

[Suburban Redneck]

That was a learning lesson and thank you for all the replies.
I only make one size for each caliber, I haven't changed weights or recipes in 20yrs.
He thought I would know, and that's why I asked.
Unfortunately he buys ammo, but I might go a little heavier in the pistol myself now.
A new load, oh my.

 

[jmorris]

He claims the 115 has a higher muzzle velocity so it should be better in a rifle,

If your a good friend, just smile and nod.

If you want to put his reasoning into question, ask him “better” for what?

 

[BreechFace]

I look at it differently.

I only shoot 115gr for the brass and practice, I try and only buy 124gr and 147gr.

124gr tend to shoot more POI/POA for me out of service pistols and I like 147gr+ out of any PCC as I like to suppress them.

It would be nice if in light of the increased use of suppressors if some ammo manufacturers would start commercially loading some 155gr+ 9mm right around 1,050fps for subsonic use. I've found there are a lot of 147gr offerings that aren't subsonic in PCC's.

Also, what @jmr40 said about matching velocities to bullet construction is very important when looking for best performance. 115gr HTP type bullets pushed faster out of a longer barrel will tend to over-expand causing under-penetration. But if we are just talking range fodder FMJ's than the point above is moot, other than with a longer barrel a heavier bullet will hit the target with more force.