Should LEOs have more "rights" than non-LEOs?

[GRIZ22]

Meaning should they be exempt from gun laws like the AWB, needing a permit to carry a firearm, or national reciprocity on their IDs and badges?


And when an officer retires do they collect his magazines, the ones that hold more than 10 rounds if he owns any?


And why allow retired officers to carry? You no longer are a cop. Sorry but you lose the benefits.


LEOs have no more "rights" than anyone else when it comes to firearms.

1. LEOs were not exempt from the AWB. If they used the firearm on duty yes they could buy one.

2. LEOs carry firearms due to their employment and state laws or federal laws give them the authority to do so.

3. The LEOSA was something long overdue. Even in Illinois they trust LEOs to carry guns so why not LEOs from any state?

4. If they don't allow magazines over 10 rds that id a state issue. Even NJ let's you have 15 rd magazines.

5. Retired officers are required to qualify and have proof of qualification along with their ID. Many states require no qualification or training of any type to get a CCW.

Tecumseh, all of this mentioned are "priveleges" not "rights". Get Hillary and a Democratic congress in 2008 and see where all these priveleges go.

You can't go shopping at the PX unless you're active, reserve, or retired military. Disneyworld sells discount tickets to Florida residents. A veteran can get treatment for non-service connected illnesses at the VA. One can o on and on about certain perks teh government and private industry gives to certain classes of people. These are all priveleges not rights.

Based on your outlook all of these things confer extra rights on some people.



it took about 12 years to get the HR 218 passed. Everybody wants something now.

Tecumseh, your profile says you want to become a lawyer or LEO. So I guess if you become a LEO you won't carry off duty and in other states as you feel the law is wrong?

 

[pacodelahoya]

Griz, the right to keep and bear arms in not a priviledge. What ever gave you the idea it is?

 

[DomMega]

I believe that LEO's can carry in all 50 states and I believe that law was passed in 2006.

Other than that, the police officers I know have to follow the same laws the rest of us do. Do they have more legal contacts? Sure. But they're still responsible for their actions.

 

[Telperion]

You can't go shopping at the PX unless you're active, reserve, or retired military. Disneyworld sells discount tickets to Florida residents. A veteran can get treatment for non-service connected illnesses at the VA. One can o on and on about certain perks teh government and private industry gives to certain classes of people. These are all priveleges not rights.

Based on your outlook all of these things confer extra rights on some people.

False comparison. These organizations are free to serve who they choose at whatever price they feel will keep them in business. I am free to ignore them and take my business elsewhere. I am not free to ignore gun laws since they are enforced under threat of death or imprisonment. Where is the element of coercive force in your examples? Oh, it's not there.

Other than that, the police officers I know have to follow the same laws the rest of us do. Do they have more legal contacts? Sure. But they're still responsible for their actions.

In California, police can purchase handguns for personal use that have not received the state's "safety" imprimatur, and they are completely exempt from the HSC requirement, the waiting period requirement, and the one-handgun-per-month restriction.

 

[Rem700SD]

LEO exemptions are the quinessential smell test when it comes to gun control laws for me. If it's good enough for a LE agency, it's good enough for me!

 

[DMF]

Meaning should they be exempt from gun laws . . .

While I can't speak for state and local laws around the country Law Enforcment Officers are not, and never have been exempt from federal firearms laws. The exceptions for fed firearms laws are not exemptions for the individual officers, they are exemptions for government agencies as a whole.

For example I cannot go out and buy a brand new machinegun. If my agency wants me to have one they will buy it and issue it to me, it's theirs and they can take it back whenever they want. If I quit or retire, it goes back to them. If I want to buy a short-barrelled shotgun/rifle I will have to comply with all the same laws as anyone who is not an LEO. During the "AWB" I could not go out and buy brand new mags that held more than 10 rounds for my pistols. I either had to buy pre-ban or 10 rounders, except for my duty gun and then I had to get "letterhead" approval to buy mags. My agency would not ever give letterhead. If I wanted new mags I had to make a request and hope there was money in the budget available to get more. Also, during the "AWB" I was stuck with the same problems if I wanted to buy a gun classified as an "Assault Weapon." I either had to buy preban, get a postban legal gun, or hope my agency would issue a gun, but again the issue gun would theirs not mine.

 

[Rattlesnake]

Griz, the right to keep and bear arms in not a priviledge. What ever gave you the idea it is?

Therefore felons should have the same right too?

Outside of their jurisdiction, where they have no legal authority, and are just private citizens? Yup, same as I have to have a permit.

Sure sounds good. Looking over the NMAC rules on getting a CCL in NM, it's pretty much a rubber stamp as a LEO. But while I'm already covered under HR 218 why do any more paperwork? Or rather slow the system, filing my paperwork when another law abiding citizen is applying for the same thing? It takes about 8-12 weeks to receive a license after filing, wouldn't it be better that the time spent going over my unnecessary application be better served in getting someone else a license?

Rattlesnake: And when an officer retires do they collect his magazines, the ones that hold more than 10 rounds if he owns any?

I don't know... I live in a free state. I will turn in the issued mags with my issued weapon when the time comes.

I understand you have to carry whats approved by your department. However if you have to use your weapon off duty will your department back you up and help provide legal protection?

I honestly don't know, but that's why I am a member of the Association and paying for Legal.

If you have a CCW permit I would say carry whatever you like. If your department does not approve of it then you should just lose the legal protection they give you.

I carry what I want. I'll be screwed if I have to shoot with something other than my duty weapon. I have one other almost approved pistol that I carry, but as I have yet to do my night fire, it is not approved for carry. I do carry it. To quote my rangemaster when asked if his 1911 was approved, "Like so many others in the department, I'll be screwed if I have to use it."

And I understand that you have to carry all those credentials with you. However you are allowed to carry in places some of us are not allowed to. Like Illinois or Wisconsin. And you dont need to worry about getting a permit in places where it is impossible to get a carry permit like Los Angeles, New Jersey, San Francisco, New York City, and certain counties of NY and certain areas of Massachusetts.

NMDPS

We are American citizens and we cant even carry there? But you can because of your profession.

I wish I could get free/reduced medical care, because docs treat other docs with professional courtesy... so what's your point? Lawyers work reduced or pro bono cases for other lawyers. All jobs come with perks.

Rattlesnake: One more thing about the Clintononian Assault Weapon...

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=273601

Apparetly its constitutionally vague for you to own a machinegun.

Good to know. Actually that would be "unconstitutionally vague."

Yard and Vest were relieved of duty with pay pending an administrative review, a State Police spokesman has said.

But the officers it appears will be facing a IA investigation also.

 

[Autolycus]

Well why would LEOs even need weapons with more than 10 rounds on duty? I mean if the citizens cannot get these mags then why do they?

Griz 22: Illinois does trust LEOs from other states but not citizens.

I know that retired officers are required to qualify. And that many states do not require training. Lets say I live in Pennsylvania and I get a permit from Pennsylvania which does not require training, does it allow me to carry in Washington D.C., Wisconsin, Illinois, New York, or most of California? What about neighboring New Jersey?

Does the retired officer get to carry in those places? How about we just get national reciprocity and get LEOs to lobby for shall issue status in all states? Wouldnt that make more sense and it be more beneficial for all of us?

Oh and I do plan on moving. Once my youngest sister is done with school my family plans to move to Texas. I will have no more ties to Chicago and dont plan on coming back. I am not so sure about going into LE though but it is a possibility. I am more likely to go on to law school.

 

[Geno]

Someone ought to tell my LEO neighbor that when he is in uniform, in the county's patrol car that he is still required to make a full stop at the corner stop sign. I have dozens of incidents on video of him running the stop sign. I don't know what to do with the videos...take them to the sheriff? Take them to the media? Or save them until he causes an accident, then give them to the victim's attorney. Until then, they are locked away securely off site.

 

[bp78]

No. Police are citizens. To quote the father of modern policing, Robert Peel

"Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence."

 

[lee n. field]

Why should they have more rights than their fellow citizens?

I'll go so far as to say they ought not to be allowed anything that Joe Random Citizen of whatever jurisdiction they're in can't have.

 

[never_retreat]

They are just people like us. Just because my taxs pay there salleries dosen't make them any better then me.

 

[Rattlesnake]

No. Police are citizens. To quote the father of modern policing, Robert Peel

"Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence."

Bingo we have an winner!

 

[ChrisMG]

I agree that LE organizations shouldn't be allowed to have any firearm rights above and beyond what the citizens are allowed. It's asking for a future police state, something the founding fathers were keen to avoid with the 2nd amendment.

 

[gc70]

This divisive topic shows how successful the foes of gun rights have been in implementing a divide-and-conquer strategy.

LEOs are a credible and respected part of society. The foes of gun rights have succeeded in diminishing the voice of LEOs in several gun control debates by giving individual LEOs or LE organizations special privileges.

National reciprocity? Give individual LEOs national CCW and they won't be a mass voice clamoring for national reciprocity. And it seems to have worked.

AWB redux? Exempt LE organizations and the powerful LE (administration) lobbying groups are for it. Even Carolyn McCarthy knows a new AWB would be doomed if it was portrayed as "disarming the police."

Whenever anti-gunners chip away at gun rights by giving LEOs or LE organizations special privileges to buy their acquiescence, we all lose.

----
Privileges given by the government can also be taken away.

 

[pacodelahoya]

Therefore felons should have the same right too?

Do they have the right to free speach? How about the right to a speedy trial?
Can the military quarter in their homes?

All jobs come with perks.

The fact that you call a basic civil right a job perk shows who you support gun rights for Mr. Snake.

 

[Blackfork]

The Feds and states have um...."complexed" up gun laws beyond comprehension.

The AMERICAN idea was that everyone was equal before the law. These days all parties are just trying to cut themselves a better deal.

No.

 

[The Amigo]

I have a CCW in all states and you dont have one la la la la

 

[F4GIB]

NO. Here's why.

[Quote:]
http://www.kwtx.com/home/headlines/6850557.html
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/05/23/rios/index.html
http://www.observer-reporter.com/OR/...erlyShooting11
http://www.ktva.com/alaska/ci_5767336
http://www.copwatch.org/copsascons.html[/quote]

Lots of police officers are also murderers, bank robbers, rapists, etc. Some get caught, some don't.

So the "special people" mantle that they like to wear is identical to the "Emperor's new clothes" in the child's tale. I've prosecuted them for perjury, so I'll believe these links. Cops are intrinsically as bad (or, if you prefer, as good) as the rest of us. Certainly, they are no better. Individuals, on the other hand ... .

 

[gc70]

I have a CCW in all states and you dont(sic) have one la la la la

That's constructive.

 

[The Amigo]

That's constructive.

No what I find nonconstructive is the fact that some fellas around here want equality in rights and think that by making life miserable for Leo's it will advance their cause. Makes no sense to me. Then they ask their selves why don't LEO organizations support our national CCW? The way i see it the more armed good guys on the Street the safer my Family will be if i'm not around.

 

[Rattlesnake]

Paco... as far as I'm concerned it is the people in those state and locales that have grown their own government. You (collectively)allowed Daly to run Illinois the way it's become. Vote, move, do something. I live in New Mexico. I graduated in 2004 and went to school with guys that had hunting rifles in the back of their trucks. Do I really give a crap about Illinois, New York, Maryland, New Jersey?

Yea once you allow someone to take your rights away... that's it. If you're stupid enough to allow someone to remove your rights, you got what's coming for you.

 

[Autolycus]

How is it making life miserable for LEOs The Amigo?

Rattlesnake: Can I join the association you mention?

As for the magazines, well what about those who dont live in a "free state."

As for your duty weapon, well thats your own choice. And the choice of the man carrying the 1911. And hopefully he gets screwed when he uses it because he is potentially wasting tax dollars defending him and paying the lawsuit that will assuredly come if he uses an unnapproved weapon in a shooting.

I dont understand the point of your link to LEO job listings. If I do decide to go into LE it would not be in NM because I dont want to move to a desert.

Ah but doctors treating other doctors is private business. It is not public. And nor is medical treatment a right. As well as Dr. A treating Dr. B at a reduced cost affecting my rights. Your job is a government job whether it is local, state, or Federal. And your given the ability to exercise a priveledge which is in reality a right that others are not able to exercise without fear of punishment from the government. It is not a perk and the fact that you see it as such is not good for the country. I myself see that as an elitist attitude.

The officers in that thread are facing an investigation. But they should be in jail.

 

[akluvr]

I am a former LE that decided to leave all of the political games behind. It is funny that it seems that I have been stripped of my "jedi like" powers now that I do not have a badge. I work with several part time officers and they even speak down to me like I have no idea what they are talking about. Let's just put it this way: If you are not a Tac officer, you only shoot the required number of rounds that the dept. says you need to be proficient- sometimes only 50 rounds a year, at static targets. Most people on this site shoot about ten times that amount in a year on the average, at least. A lot of the guys that I worked with shot the minimum and left it at that. 99% of the training that I received, I paid for out of my own pocket because I thought it might benefit me and the folks that I worked for if the SHTF. It just rankles me that if you do not have a badge, it seems that you do not have the skill to "handle" a weapon in a responsible manner. In looking at it from both sides, I would rather have a CCW permit holder at my back than about 99.9% of the LEO's on the street. Let's face it, the LE training for street officers is definately lacking.

 

[gc70]

No what I find nonconstructive is the fact that some fellas around here want equality in rights and think that by making life miserable for Leo's it will advance their cause. Makes no sense to me.

The question is not about rights because we all have the same rights as Americans. The question is about privileges. Does it make your life miserable to explain why you should have special privileges denied to others?

Then they ask their selves why don't LEO organizations support our national CCW?

Several people have stated the opinion that LEOs were "bought off" with HR218 to abandon the fight for national reciprocity. Your statement that "I have a CCW in all states and you dont have one la la la la" only adds to that perception.