Should rule two be revised or reworded?

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Oh Man!

We're really picking fly crap out of pepper on this one boys. Let's leave them alone and not fix what's not broken.
 
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I started to read this thread but the responses started to get absolutely ridiculous. The rules as written by Cooper are right, do not need to be re-written and should not. If you think they should be re-written or ignored under special circumstances, you either need to study them until you understand what they imply or should quit handling firearms.

ALWAYS LOADED. Yes, even when the ammunition has been removed and the firearm disassembled. Anytime you start thinking a firearm is in a condition to aim at another person safely is the time you start programming your brain there are times when it is safe to point a firearm at another person. When your brain makes a mistake and thinks the conditions are safe to do so when they are not, you are one step closer to disaster.

MUZZLE DISCIPLINE. Always always be aware of what your muzzle is aimed at. Never point it at something you're unwilling to destroy. You forget for even a split second, the consequences of what the bullet will strike, you will eventually shoot something or someone. You cannot unshoot somebody.

FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER. If the finger is off the trigger, the trigger cannot be pulled. Period. If you should violate the first two rules and haqve your finger on the trigger, you will shoot somebody by mistake.

TARGET & BEYOND. If you don't identify your target, how can you know it's what you're supposed to shoot? If you don't make sure what's beyond it, you are not paying attention and lack situational awareness.

POSSIBLE EXCEPTIONS?
-Holstering a handgun. Must cover something I don't want to shoot. Exception? No. If you think it's ok to point the muzzle at something or someone you're not willing to destroy, you'll start getting sloppy. Muzzle discipline will heighten your awareness of the potential for disaster and will ensure you re-holster in a disciplined, efficient, safe manner with your finger OFF the trigger to prevent unintentional discharges.
-Cleaning. It's unloaded, so it's safe. Exception? No. Anything that teaches your brain a firearm is safe and it's ok to ignore safe handling is setting you up for failure. Someday, you will find yourself thinking a firearm is unloaded and is safe and you'll forget to keep your finger off the trigger and forget muzzle discipline. Firearms are ALWAYS LOADED even when the ammunition has been removed! Keep that in mind and I guarantee you'll be more aware of where you point the muzzle and where you place your finger.

I have made a couple of mistakes that haunt me to this day. Not because anyone was hurt or killed, but because if someone else had been involved, they could have been. Each mistake involved a violation of two rules. It was steadfast obedience to the others that prevented disaster.

This is real life. You cannot unshoot a bullet, you cannot unkill. We are human and make mistakes. Understand why we obey those four rules and you'll at least have a chance to limit the consequences when you screw up
 
you either need to study them until you understand what they imply or
...re-write them so they actually say what they mean. That way, no studying to figure out what's "implied" would be needed.

Of course, YMMV--and apparently does. :D
Always always be aware of what your muzzle is aimed at.
BTW, I like your re-write of Rule 2. Well done! ...;)
 
If one cannot interpolate and understand the rules as written, perhaps they should not be using guns in the first place. :)
 
Rules should make sense as written and should not present a dichotomy. One is tempted to say: 1. All guns are loaded unless they are not.

But it makes a heck of a lot of sense to say:
1. All guns are loaded until you determine they are not.

Certainly in a class people should be taught that guns do not stay empty very long.
 
+1 for Walkalong.

If you want to lawyer the rules, why start on #2?

#1 ALL guns are always loaded.

ALL is pretty strong wording. Does this mean that every gun is shipped loaded?

#2 Never let the muzzle cover anything you're not willing to destroy.

Pretty well beat to death already above.

#3 Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target.

This means that no hip-shooting is permitted. All those law enforcement drills keeping the gun close to your body to prevent a close-in attacker from gaining control of it are obviously wrong.

#4 Be sure of your target and what's beyond it.

This one should effectively outlaw hunting. A miss at a deer with a 30-06 fired at a 5 degree angle (shooting from kneeling, for example) will travel about 2 miles. How many people check the woods for 2 miles behind a deer before they shoot?

The 4 Rules Of Gun Safety we're talking about were developed by Jeff Cooper. He had very little tolerance for anyone with the lack of common sense to apply the rules appropriately. Too bad he's not around to "discuss" this with you guys .... :)
 
Dude,

You'll have to take that up with Col. Cooper, but, me, I always phrased it "Don't point the gun at anything you don't want to shoot". That's as easily pick-apart-able, but parsing the sentence isn't the point.

The entire objective was to provide something easy to remember with enough impact that it was easily remembered instead of being a whole dry training session on firearms safety.

KISS
 
Some of you High Roaders would make brilliant politicians. Revise the Four Rules into a list of 2800 rules with the foregone conclusion that guns are just too darn dangerous for anyone to own for any reason....:banghead:
 
I couldn't say how many times I've rephrased these rules for kids and this wording, for kids, is absurd:
"NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY."
The rules themselves are simple, Cooper's writing style is willfully obscure.
 
If one cannot interpolate and understand the rules as written, perhaps they should not be using guns in the first place.
Or, if one cannot come up with rules that are actually true as written--all guns are demonstrably NOT always loaded--perhaps one shouldn't be using English in the first place. ;)
Too bad he's not around to "discuss" this with you guys ....
Yes, too bad for all of us that he's gone. R.I.P. But if you're implying he would have "persuaded" those who disagree with him by insulting them, well, then I'm not sure you're honoring his memory.

And make sure you direct some of that righteous fury at the NRA, and all its certified instructors. The NRA doesn't even list Cooper's Rule 1. I guess they don't know anything about safety, either--funny that Cooper didn't set them straight, isn't it?

Cooper was a great teacher, but there are many paths. Rule 1 has its strong points and its weaknesses. Back on topic: as I said earleir, I have little complaint about Rule 2. But every once in a while I come across some guy who opines that Rule 2 forbids the use of a horizontal-carry shoulder holster, so, again, its meaning is not immediately clear to everyone.
 
Basically I use these four simple to memorize items....

1) Assume all firearms are loaded
2) Keep your finger off the trigger
3) Muzzle discipline
4) Know your target and what is beyond.

Each of them can and should be covered in more detail but the "memory trigger" part needs to stay simple.
 
For kids espically, ya gotta keep it simple, so i made my our familys the rule of "ANNA"
1) A lways treat every gun as if it's loaded
2) N ever point the barrell at anything you dont want to kill
3) N ever put your finger on the trigger until your sight-picture is on target
4) A lways know your target and what lies beyond,
Then as i was training them in proper weapon-handling, whenever a potential violation of said rules was occuring or was about to occur i would just simply start chanting "Anna",Anna,Anna,, (The volume and intensity would increase as did the potential violation,, I sometimes throw out the question randomly during supper, or while their playing x-box, Tell me about ANNA, All 3 of them know it now
 
If one cannot interpolate and understand the rules as written, perhaps they should not be using guns in the first place.

Well said.

The rules themselves are simple, Cooper's writing style is willfully obscure.

Again, well said.

You guys do realize that they are General Rules to follow? They apply in most cases, when they do not, you stop to consider why they do not apply. Most of you obviously have thought about it. That was the intent. Did it not work properly?
 
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The Four Rules don't have to prove themselves. Their utility has been well established. They have been in use for a lot or years, and they seem to work just fine. They have the great benefit, for teaching purposes, that they are short, direct, to the point, and easy to remember. Every so often someone wants to come along and change them, but nothing else really has anything like the successful track record of The Four Rules.

Remember that they are first and foremost rules for safe gun handling. If a gun is in a holster, it's not being handled. If it's in your safe, it's not being handled. If it's in a case, it's not being handled.

Those of us who have trained with the Rules, and teach with them, understand them as safe handling rules. We know and teach their proper application and context. So --

  • If you hand me a gun, don't bother telling me it's not loaded. Because I follow Rule One, I won't believe you and will personally verify/clear the gun.
  • If I criticize you for pointing a gun at me, my spouse, my cat, or anyone/anything else I value, don't bother trying to excuse yourself by telling me that it's not loaded.
  • If your gun fires when you didn't intend it to, don't bother trying to explain yourself by saying anything like, "I didn't think it was loaded." You should have understood that under Rule One since it is a gun it is loaded, and you should have conducted yourself accordingly.
  • And wherever you are, if your gun is in your hand, you jolly well need to find a safe direction for your muzzle until you've actually got something to shoot at, and you're about to be shooting at it.
  • And if you're not actually shooting, your finger needs to be off the trigger, whether you're using your sights or not.
  • And you need to know your target and what's behind it even in a self defense situation. No one is going to pat you on the back and tell you what a splendid fellow you are for wasting poor old Mrs. Smith when trying to avoid getting mugged yourself. (If you ever have a chance to train with Louis Awerbuck, he will have you engaging targets with "non-combatants" in front of behind the "BG" target. It will be up to you to move or place your shots (or in his moving target class, time your shot) to avoid hitting a non-combatant.)

Jeff Cooper insisted, and the way Rule One is stated at Gunsite and most other schools and by the many instructors who were influenced by Cooper and Gunsite, it is simply, "All guns are always loaded." When one merely treats a gun as if it were loaded, or pretends that the gun is loaded, one mentally admits the possibility that it is not actually loaded. That invites sloppiness and carelessness.

People complain about Rule One. They say that they know there are unloaded guns. But the The Four Rules are rules of gun handling and intended to avoid injury. So as far as I'm concerned, when I pick up a gun, there is no such thing as an unloaded gun, and I conduct myself accordingly.

So what do you do if you have a gun in your hand and you don't want it to be loaded? Well you clear it, of course. So that's what you would do if, for example, you wanted to dissemble if for cleaning or enclose/lock it in a case for legal transportation if the law requires that the gun be unloaded. But while the gun is in your hand you still follow Rules Two, Three and Four. And if the gun is out of your control, Rule One again applies -- so you conduct yourself accordingly and personally verify/clear it if you don't want it to be loaded. (And of course anyone one who uses a gun for practical applications, such as hunting or self defense, in any case needs to be able to handle a loaded gun properly.)

One may choose to quibble with the Four Rule, but they have still been around for a long time, are ubiquitous and have been shown to be very effective for teaching and promoting gun safety.
 
I've reworded all of them.

Yes. It's loaded. If you tell me that it's not loaded, I won't believe you. If I tell you that it's not loaded...don't believe me, either. Verify.

Don't point it at anything that can't be replaced with money. Especially, don't point it at me. I don't care if it's not loaded and the safety is on. If you point it at me, I won't be kind.

Don't pull the trigger unless you want to shoot a hole in something.

Know what is behind your target so you won't shoot something that you don't want a hole in while making a hole in something that you do.
 
Cooper's 4 Rules are Cooper's rules they way he expressed them and work for a lot of folks. Rewording Cooper's rules for yourself helps you exercise your understanding. I've done myself.
Danger awareness: Treat all guns with the respect due loaded lethal weapons.
Muzzle discipline: Never let the muzzle sweep anyone or anything you would not want destroyed.
Trigger discipline: Finger off the trigger unless the sights are on an intended target.
Situational awareness: Clearly identify the target and surroundings in line of fire.
 
...re-write them so they actually say what they mean. That way, no studying to figure out what's "implied" would be needed.

Of course, YMMV--and apparently does. :DBTW, I like your re-write of Rule 2. Well done! ...;)
Actually, I was just paraphrasing the Four Rules, not re-writing them. I wrote the post as if the Four Rules were in a quote, but I didn't check off the quote box
 
To me the 4 Rules are fine as written, and if re-wording helps then whatever works.

Gun shows are a problem - in that case it is the intent of the exhibitors and the patrons that many many guns get handled, unholstered, in very crowded circumstances, by the general public. It's almost a guaranteed accident.

I don't know the complete answer - I try hard to follow the 4 rules, but I know perfectly well the dufus next to me either never heard of them or believes they apply to everyone else.

This year at a show, at a table an old man had back in a corner, I picked up a nice old .22 auto, a small DA type. Removed magazine - full. Owner saw it and nearly had stroke. He retracted the slide - out jumped cartridge. (This show required 'strapping' all actions. For whatever reason this gun was not, I don't recall about his others.)

I almost felt sorry for the idiot. Some sob story about his son must have had it out shooting recently. Suggested he check the rest of his guns and got away from him.
 
There is a very old .45 caliber hole in my workbench to remind me about rule #1. Fortunately I don't violate Rule #2. The multiple layers of safety are there for a reason.

Nothing needs to change.
 
It't the SPIRIT of the rules people. It amazes me how much hand wringing goes on over such things(and I didn't make it through all the posts). Do your best to follow them and you'll be safe. Understand what they are trying to convey. That's all that's needed.
 
The Rules are very useful as they are. They were designed to be simple and easy to remember. Extra explainations came be made, but the rules should be memorized as written.

I think there are a lot of people on this board that have had malfunctions that just reinforce this. I know I have, especially with older used weapons.

When I was in Vietnam; in front of every building was a 105mm canister filled with sand. Procedure was, remove magazine, rack two times, point into the canister, pull trigger, then enter the building. You would be surprised how many weapons went "bang" into those canisters.
 
They are simply strongly worded mnemoic devices to point out realms of difficulty. Obviously, it is physically impossible for some of them to be true in all cases.

Most of us realize that and don't have a tizzy about it. Yes, there are other wordings but these get the ideas across. Big whoop to point out that guns aren't always loaded, etc.
 
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