Shoulder collapse

[Grecord]

I have a few more hours these days and was going to tackle a project I abandoned. I have an 8mm-06 and gave up making cases after getting 40-50% collapsed shoulder when resizing. Not seeing any roughness in the die and was using Dillon spray case lube. Although I've reloaded thousands of rounds in many rifle and pistol calibers this was my first effort at fireforming. I abandoned it because I ran out of time before the hunt I planned on using it for. (I know, I shouldn't have taken 'new' gun into the field anyway, But by running out of time I mean a year before the trip.)

I am thinking the problem is the chamber size of the rifle and the die size.

I am open to suggestions on where to look. I did get some cerrosafe but haven't followed through on that.

 

[Clark]

In September I was trying to build 3 rifles fast for hunting. Two were special needs for reloading; 257 Roberts Ackley Improved Rimmed from 7x57mmRimmed brass and 260 Remington from .308 small primer Lapua brass.

I was getting collapsed necks with both. And the brass cost ~~$1 each and has no salvage value.

I had heard from Jim Leahey at James Calhoon that he necks down 30 carbine to 19 Calhoon in 10% steps per some wild cat association magazine or something.

So I hack sawed off pieces of 7/8-14 threaded rod and bore holes of 10% size change intermediate diameters to use as neck dies.
That worked.

Alternatively, I have necked 8mm down to 7mm and then necked the 7mm down to .257 with FL dies in rimless cases.

 

[rcmodel]

Thats real odd right there.

I make 25-06 cases (.051" step down) in one pass through a standard RCBS sizing die and don't think I have ever lost a case.

Is the 30-06 shoulder collapsing while push the expander button through it to make it 8mm (Probably only .010" or so bigger on a fired 06 case).

Or collapsing after it enters the sizing portion of the die?

If the later, are you positively sure you don't have a broken case neck stuck in the die or something.

If the former, I might try pre-expanding them with a tapered punch just enough to get the expander button started inside them.

Did you anneal the brass first?
That might be your problem right there if they are butter soft.

I doubt it is the rifle chamber if fired cases come out looking like 8mm-06 should look.

If you have cerrosafe, I would use it to cast & measure the sizing die.
It may be for something else besides 8mm-06 and marked wrong.

rc

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Is it possible the lube you're using doesn't supply enough lubrication when the expander button enters the neck? It may be hanging up and pushing the neck down into the case. One Shot is not a very good lubricant especially when trying to form a new case. Imperial sizing Wax is a much better choice.

 

[fguffey]

"I am open to suggestions on where to look. I did get some cerrosafe but haven't followed though on that"

You are open to suggestions? Good! That means I do not have to make the choir happy with my answer.

First, my opinion, you are neither fire forming or forming, you are necking-up 30/06 cases to 8mm06 cases. Long before I had a 35 Whelen and or a 338/06 I had a set of dies for both chambers. Rational? Or reason for dies I do not need, I am a case former, I form first then fire, I do not fire first then try to determine the effect the chamber had on the case when fired, it is about cutting down on case travel.

Because I am the only fan of reducing/eliminating case travel it is common for me to neck up 200 30/06 cases to 35 Whelen and or 338/06 with no intention and or plan to reload the cases, the dedicated purpose for the necked-up cases is to determine the length of a chamber from the bolt face to the shoulder of 'A' chamber 8mm06, 30/06, 270 W down to 25/06, and no, there is nothing about determining the length of the chamber that demands me to reload the cases, not an easy concept to get past the choir, first: I want to determine the length of the chamber from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber, if when determine the length of the chamber a few cases give up their place on this earth it was/is for a good cause, I put no demand on a case that requires it to survive 47 firings, again, I am a case former, I am not vain.


"....gave up making cases after getting 40-50% collapsed shoulder when resizing"

If the shoulder of your cases are collapsing when necking up you could have a problem with the neck sizer/ expander ball, something like necking up 25/06 to 30/06 with RCBS dies that were manufactured before 1983, the old sizer/expander did not have enough tapper.

Effort when necking up, necking up 30/06 to 338/06 and or 35 Whelen shortens the length of the case (who measures?) as much as .035", then there is the confusion about the neck getting thicker and or thinner (who measures?, my cases get shorter because necking up shortens the neck and get longer when necking down because necking down lengthens the neck.

Compensating for cases getting shorten when necking up, use a longer case. back to the part where I said "my favorite case is the 280 REMINGTON" because the 280 Remington case is longer from the head of the case to the shoulder .051" than the 30/06 when measured from the same place as in from the head of the case to the shoulder, this means nothing to a fire former but for the case former? The case former can not miss, all that is required for the cases former to know is 'the length of the chamber from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber, meaning? The case former has .51 options when sizing the length of the case, some reloaders grind the top of the shell holder, some reloaders grind the base of the die, some purchase Skip' shims then others purchase Redding competition shell holders.

Nothing drives a case former to the curb, some have nice tools, not necessary tools, nice tools but not necessary tools.

Necking up 280 Remington cases, use new cases or once fired cases, neck splits, nickel plated? expect 40% failure when going from 280 Remington to 338/06, for me? no loss, AGAIN, the case, is a tool, the case can become an expandable tool, for a case to give up it's place on earth when forming is a small price to pay, then there is the drilling the primer pocket/flash hole, another sacrifice for the case to pay when determine the maximum overall length of a case determined by the ojive/rifling contact.

F. Guffey

 

[918v]

Get some imperial sizing wax and lube the inside of the case neck with a q-tip. Spray lubes are junk.

 

[fguffey]

Then? There is a chance you are not necking up, it is possible to collapse the shoulder when when seating an 8mm bullet in a 30/06 case neck, it is possible to collapse the shoulder when seating a bullet AND crimping, the crimp portion of die could be adjusted too low, OR the case length is not the trimmed to the same length.

Again, I do not have a problem with collapse shoulders when necking up as when going from 280 Remington to 35 Whelen. ALL failures when going from 280 Remington or 30/06 to 35 Whelen are neck splits.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

...then there is case body support when forming, again, you are not forming, you are expanding the neck.

New cases, only a case former chooses to use new cases, again, it is a small price for the case to pay, fire formers go straight to forming with a case that has been fired once and neck sized 5 times, that never made sense, because they think they can full length sized the case and 'Then' start over?

THE CASE HAS BEEN FIRED 6 TIMES, how is it possible to start over by full length sizing?

F. Guffey