MCgunner
Member
Oh, BTW, just a thought out of the blue, but if there's enough law to get arrested for cattle rustling and I get arrested, I get three hots and a cot in county lock up and my worries are over! BWAAAAA, ha, ha! I win!
SHTF Scenario questions
- Thread starter M.E.Eldridge
- Start date
- Status
R.W.Dale
Member
MCgunner said:
There may be just enough law to get arrested but not enough to keep the sherriff from hangin you the next day. HAHA who wins then?
MCgunner
Member
krochus said:
Guess I'll have to weigh the odds when the time comes. If there's that much law, then there's stores open with beer. I'm good to go....
A man can live on beer. I know, I did it for four years in College Station.An' besides, I know the sherriff pretty well.
R.W.Dale
Member
MCgunner said:Guess I'll have to weigh the odds when the time comes. If there's that much law, then there's stores open with beer. I'm good to go....
An' besides, I know the sherriff pretty well.
OH Lordy, alright I'm going to bed.
itgoesboom
member
McGunner,
I think the thing that offends me the most is your inability to see the difference between laws created through society and basic human morallity.
You basically came out and said that you thought it would be okay to kill a farmer so that you can take his supplies. Even if there isn't law, that isn't moral.
How about this instead:
"Gee Mr. Farmer. I have a hungry family to feed, and I would be willing to work for you so that I can feed them."
Instead, the path you claim as being the moral one, is one of theft and murder.
You would be willing to commit murder and theft, against an innocent human being, rather than try to work for your food.
Well, I guess that just shows everyone where you are coming from, and it is a good warning to everyone to be careful who knows you have preps, because some people will just slit your throats for them, and claim that it is the moral thing to do.
I.G.B.
I think the thing that offends me the most is your inability to see the difference between laws created through society and basic human morallity.
You basically came out and said that you thought it would be okay to kill a farmer so that you can take his supplies. Even if there isn't law, that isn't moral.
How about this instead:
"Gee Mr. Farmer. I have a hungry family to feed, and I would be willing to work for you so that I can feed them."
Instead, the path you claim as being the moral one, is one of theft and murder.
You would be willing to commit murder and theft, against an innocent human being, rather than try to work for your food.
Well, I guess that just shows everyone where you are coming from, and it is a good warning to everyone to be careful who knows you have preps, because some people will just slit your throats for them, and claim that it is the moral thing to do.
I.G.B.
Speaking of morality
I love to read threads about SHTF.
This particular one is particularly interesting.
If I read posts about one of my neighbors discussing stealing from me and murdering my family the first thing I would do when TSHTF is to shoot him on sight. After I sought him out on day one.
In the mean time, I would accept him for what he is. What he is can't be posted on THR.
I love to read threads about SHTF.
This particular one is particularly interesting.
If I read posts about one of my neighbors discussing stealing from me and murdering my family the first thing I would do when TSHTF is to shoot him on sight. After I sought him out on day one.
In the mean time, I would accept him for what he is. What he is can't be posted on THR.
MCgunner
Member
itgoesboom said:
No, you misunderstand. I was told the farmer would come after my wife. I said if he would and I knew he would, I'd go after him first. IE, I'm killing in self defense. There is no law in this scenario. I'm moral to a point, but starvation does things to people when it's survival time. Remember the Donner party or that plane crash in South America? I'd take a calf if I had to in order to keep from starving and I'd kill in self defense. In the situation where all law and society has broken down, thugs are everywhere, I'd probably get shot going up the farmer's driveway to ask him for anything. I'd trust no one, but close friends and family. It would be total anarchy, total caos.
Like I say, it's a flaky scenario anyway and I'd probably be the first to die cause I don't feel the need for a BOB or any of that and don't sit around thinking about doom. Local disasters, all I need to is go away for a while and come back to what's left in the aftermath. I survive by going to the mail box first of every month. Worrying about doom is something religious fanatics do, guys like David Karesh.
MC
So...
It is acceptable to steal the ranchers cattle that he is using to feed his family. Then if he comes after you for taking food and possible survival from HIS family then you can kill him and you feel you are morally justified?
They have a name for individuals who rationalize their criminal acts like this:
DEFENDANT
I do not know where you live but, You obviously are not familiar with the Western ranching culture.
So...
It is acceptable to steal the ranchers cattle that he is using to feed his family. Then if he comes after you for taking food and possible survival from HIS family then you can kill him and you feel you are morally justified?
They have a name for individuals who rationalize their criminal acts like this:
DEFENDANT
I do not know where you live but, You obviously are not familiar with the Western ranching culture.
MCgunner
Member
IV Troop said:
The ranchers I'm thinking of own land measured in the section, not the acre. They have more'n one cow. And, if I was starving, I'd take one.
Edit that, if I was starving and there were no other way, if all society had collapsed, I don't get my retirement check anymore, HEB has been totally pillaged, there's no more Seven Elevens, people are dying on the streets from starvation, there's no government to help, there's no one that gives a rats....then I'd take one. We're talking worst case collapse of civilization, not a local event.
You don't seem to understand raw survival. In this case there will be no culture, western or eastern.
itgoesboom
member
MCgunner said:
Even in pure raw survival, if you break moral law, you will be judged accordingly. Raw survival doesn't give you carte blanche to kill whoever you want so that you can take what they have earned in their lives.
Doing that you would just be a common murderere and a theif. Apparantly I am not the only one who sees you for what you are.
MCgunner said:
So somehow that makes it right?
Look, you may think you understand pure raw survival, but you have only proven you know very little.
While the official law and order won't be there, there will always people who enforce human morality at the very basic sense.
You can see this throughout history, and murderers and theives are always given what they deserve in the end.
If this is really your attitude, than all I can say is I hope that you get yours before you kill some innocent person, so that you, a person who is advocating stealing and murder can live another day.
I.G.B.
itgoesboom
member
doubletap
I thought the purpose of this thread was to discuss how prepared people were to hunt in a survival situation.
I moved it here in good faith that it would stay on topic.
My personal take on the original question is that hunting skills are another one of those skills that many people seem to believe they are genetically programmed with. I think that there are as many people who say they can hunt to survive with no experience in hunting as there are people who think they came out of the womb as gunfighters and can handle a defensive encounter with not training.
Jeff
I moved it here in good faith that it would stay on topic.
My personal take on the original question is that hunting skills are another one of those skills that many people seem to believe they are genetically programmed with. I think that there are as many people who say they can hunt to survive with no experience in hunting as there are people who think they came out of the womb as gunfighters and can handle a defensive encounter with not training.
Jeff
itgoesboom
member
Jeff,
I am sorry that this has gotten off topic.
I have just gotten tired of people claiming they will take what they need from others, even if it means killing them in a survival situation.
I have read responses like that here before, and elsewhere, and it always just riles me up to know that people can be so evil as to be willing to kill innocents so that they can continue to steal and kill another day.
I.G.B.
I am sorry that this has gotten off topic.
I have just gotten tired of people claiming they will take what they need from others, even if it means killing them in a survival situation.
I have read responses like that here before, and elsewhere, and it always just riles me up to know that people can be so evil as to be willing to kill innocents so that they can continue to steal and kill another day.
I.G.B.
I actually think that it would be easier to kill animals for food in town than it would trying to actually hunt for big game animals.
You could live forever on just pidgons (sp ?). Dogs, cats, squirrels, rats, etc are plentiful. In many eastern cities, many "wild" animals live in cities including deer.
And, if you had the forethought to buy a few good suppressors, you are in business. A good quality air rifle with a GOOD sighting system would be worth it's weight in gold if you dropped the ball on the suppressors. But, I didn't.
Assuming that the situation didn't demand evacuation, it would probably be a good idea to just stay put. Of course, the likely senario these days would be a terrorist attack with a nuke or dirty bomb that would demand evacuation.
Here in the desert southwest, water is of far more importance than food. In the city, you at least have some chance of finding water. Swimming pools, hot water tanks, toilet flush boxes etc. Once you leave town..........forget it.
You could live forever on just pidgons (sp ?). Dogs, cats, squirrels, rats, etc are plentiful. In many eastern cities, many "wild" animals live in cities including deer.
And, if you had the forethought to buy a few good suppressors, you are in business. A good quality air rifle with a GOOD sighting system would be worth it's weight in gold if you dropped the ball on the suppressors. But, I didn't.
Assuming that the situation didn't demand evacuation, it would probably be a good idea to just stay put. Of course, the likely senario these days would be a terrorist attack with a nuke or dirty bomb that would demand evacuation.
Here in the desert southwest, water is of far more importance than food. In the city, you at least have some chance of finding water. Swimming pools, hot water tanks, toilet flush boxes etc. Once you leave town..........forget it.
cidirkona
Member
Huntable* city-dwelling SHTF dinner:
This guy already has the right idea...
This guy already has the right idea...
-Colin
*Check your local laws and regulations
Polishrifleman
Member
WOW
I live in the suburbs of Seattle WA. I come from a small town, I still mow my own lawn, change my own oil, own guns, know how tools work and commute to work.
On the topic of big city SHTF I think we have two pretty good examples and two very different ones with September 11 and Katrina.
One had warning one didn't. If you have warning and decide the boy cried wolf then you probably won't care to worry about any of this information. If you take the warning then you will be so far ahead of the game you will need to protect what you have.
Communication and Transportation (or lack thereof) in the big city are the two biggest things we all need to consider IMHO.
I have a wife and two pre school aged boys. I work 12 miles away across a floating bridge, my wife works 3 days out 2 days at home, our kids are in pre-school half days 3 days a week and with their grandparents the other half of the day about 20 miles away from work.
What are the odds that whatever happens does so at night when we are together or on the weekend. It's roughly 30% which is an 8hr work day plus some commute time (top 3 worst in the country) meaning the rest of the time we are together every other moment of the evening and weekends as a family unit. No date nights, no poker at the buddies, and I have to go to the mall
.
Basically if you added it up I might have a 50/50 chance of having my family unit together. At that point the lack of knowledge would be the worst. How do you know everyone is ok? I have been through 3 earthquakes and luck would have it that I was on the phone with a friend during two of them, I had a line of communication to the outside but once I hung up no chance on getting the line back.
If you have never experienced phone lines flooded, cell towers flooded no way to communicate it isn't a very good feeling. I wonder if VOIP will help alieviate that?
Next would be getting from point A to point B. As mentioned before I travel across a floating bridge and there are two of them in Seattle and I assume both of them will be trashed or unable to be used for anything but foot traffic. In the foot traffic scenerio I still have a 12 mile hike, uneven ground, congestion, loonies, whatever, we'll be optimistic and say 6hrs to get home (if it is still standing) in the trashed scenerio we are talking about 25 miles using the same calculation that is 12.5hrs and we are assuming no communication.
I won't get into the wife and kid plan but once at home I plan to ride it out, bottled water, purification, gas, generator, pasta rice, beans, smoked oysters jerky etc... and can ride it out for a while until I have to worry about hunting etc..
I live in the suburbs of Seattle WA. I come from a small town, I still mow my own lawn, change my own oil, own guns, know how tools work and commute to work.
On the topic of big city SHTF I think we have two pretty good examples and two very different ones with September 11 and Katrina.
One had warning one didn't. If you have warning and decide the boy cried wolf then you probably won't care to worry about any of this information. If you take the warning then you will be so far ahead of the game you will need to protect what you have.
Communication and Transportation (or lack thereof) in the big city are the two biggest things we all need to consider IMHO.
I have a wife and two pre school aged boys. I work 12 miles away across a floating bridge, my wife works 3 days out 2 days at home, our kids are in pre-school half days 3 days a week and with their grandparents the other half of the day about 20 miles away from work.
What are the odds that whatever happens does so at night when we are together or on the weekend. It's roughly 30% which is an 8hr work day plus some commute time (top 3 worst in the country) meaning the rest of the time we are together every other moment of the evening and weekends as a family unit. No date nights, no poker at the buddies, and I have to go to the mall
.Basically if you added it up I might have a 50/50 chance of having my family unit together. At that point the lack of knowledge would be the worst. How do you know everyone is ok? I have been through 3 earthquakes and luck would have it that I was on the phone with a friend during two of them, I had a line of communication to the outside but once I hung up no chance on getting the line back.
If you have never experienced phone lines flooded, cell towers flooded no way to communicate it isn't a very good feeling. I wonder if VOIP will help alieviate that?
Next would be getting from point A to point B. As mentioned before I travel across a floating bridge and there are two of them in Seattle and I assume both of them will be trashed or unable to be used for anything but foot traffic. In the foot traffic scenerio I still have a 12 mile hike, uneven ground, congestion, loonies, whatever, we'll be optimistic and say 6hrs to get home (if it is still standing) in the trashed scenerio we are talking about 25 miles using the same calculation that is 12.5hrs and we are assuming no communication.
I won't get into the wife and kid plan but once at home I plan to ride it out, bottled water, purification, gas, generator, pasta rice, beans, smoked oysters
jerky etc... and can ride it out for a while until I have to worry about hunting etc..joab said:
Exactly, whenever these little flights of Road Warrior fantasy are posted strong and often distateful Darwinian tendencies are brought to light. Although I must say it does make for some interesting reading at times.
P.S. cidirkona, nice picture of Uber Kittens....Gray cats are the apex of feline evolution
P.P.S. To stay on topic, my daughter could aid in subsistance hunting....if only she'd lay off the sauce!
joab
Member
Survival hunting is not as hard as sport hunting, there are less rules and you would be less picky.
Rat taste just like beef, just like pork, just like chicken if you put enough curry and hot sauce on it.
I'll be doing alot of my hunting in the grocery store can goods isles before and after the storm
Rat taste just like beef, just like pork, just like chicken if you put enough curry and hot sauce on it.
I'll be doing alot of my hunting in the grocery store can goods isles before and after the storm
I do not think many of these folk know just how slim their chances are of making out of their city limits in a real crisis after the first couple of hours maybe less. Firstly traffic volume, secondly what would be a gov imperative to keep them inside or transported to "temporary rest and relocation centers" if the crisis directly affects their particular city.M.E.Eldridge said:
I agree fully, many or most will quickly find themselves losing weight fast, if they do not die of thirst first.
I doubt that one in a hundred people - under such circumstances - will care less about game laws or game wardens. Come to that, I doubt that many game wardens will be doing anything other than taking care of themselves and family.
Overall I think the hunting strategy is good if you live well away from the larger cities and know what you are doing. Otherwise you are going to have a hard time reaching more remote places, and have alot of competition on the way.
--------------------------------------------
http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
Byron Quick
Moderator In Memoriam
1)In a truly serious breakdown of our infrastructure, you won't really have to worry about the game wardens out in the woods. Even if civil authority has survived to the point where the state government still exists to pay them, the state will have other uses for them than to enforce game laws.
2)I feel somehwhat sorry for you who have decided that survival requires you to be the "baddest." You have misinterpreted Darwin's concept of 'survival of the fittest.' You might be the most dangerous single person who has ever lived...a hundred pygmies-operating as a cooperative team-will leave nothing of you but a grease spot. The human who is most fit to survive-in a true survival scenario-is the human who cooperates the best and is a member of the best team.
I'm not a member of a formal team. I have friends with whom I've held exploratory talks. A retired major of infantry, infantrymen of recent service, a practicing doctor. I'm a nurse. I know plenty of farmers in this area. Personally, I'd team up with the doctor and the infantry trained people. We'd go around and talk with the farmers and work up a deal: you help us out with food, shelter, and supplies and we provide medical care and protection. A moral choice-value given for value received. Unfortunately for some here...we'd be spending our time hunting you after you killed one of our clients for their calf. I doubt we'd be reading you Miranda. You would get a very speedy trial, though.
I've practical experience in hunting and fishing for food in settings where I wouldn't eat otherwise. I used to go camping in hunting season with nothing but salt, pepper, and butter. No successful hunting meant no successful meals. I never missed a meal but it looked doubtful a time or two. However, the prospect of continuing to go hungry certainly sharpens your focus and interest in hunting.
The region in which I live is partially protected from hurricanes due to distance from the ocean. There hasn't been but one major earthquake since Europeans settled the area and even then the damage was not extreme. The hunting's pretty good with tens of thousands of acres of public hunting areas within a 30 minute drive. Block a couple of bridges and there would be no worries of refugees from urban areas. I think I'll stay here if things go to hell.
If civil government collapsed, one of the first items on my agenda would be collective self defense in the area. If you're planning on living off the property of other people, Burke County, Georgia would probably be a real good area to avoid. We have plenty of firearms, plenty of people familiar with their use, plenty of trees, and lots of rope.
2)I feel somehwhat sorry for you who have decided that survival requires you to be the "baddest." You have misinterpreted Darwin's concept of 'survival of the fittest.' You might be the most dangerous single person who has ever lived...a hundred pygmies-operating as a cooperative team-will leave nothing of you but a grease spot. The human who is most fit to survive-in a true survival scenario-is the human who cooperates the best and is a member of the best team.
I'm not a member of a formal team. I have friends with whom I've held exploratory talks. A retired major of infantry, infantrymen of recent service, a practicing doctor. I'm a nurse. I know plenty of farmers in this area. Personally, I'd team up with the doctor and the infantry trained people. We'd go around and talk with the farmers and work up a deal: you help us out with food, shelter, and supplies and we provide medical care and protection. A moral choice-value given for value received. Unfortunately for some here...we'd be spending our time hunting you after you killed one of our clients for their calf. I doubt we'd be reading you Miranda. You would get a very speedy trial, though.
I've practical experience in hunting and fishing for food in settings where I wouldn't eat otherwise. I used to go camping in hunting season with nothing but salt, pepper, and butter. No successful hunting meant no successful meals. I never missed a meal but it looked doubtful a time or two. However, the prospect of continuing to go hungry certainly sharpens your focus and interest in hunting.
The region in which I live is partially protected from hurricanes due to distance from the ocean. There hasn't been but one major earthquake since Europeans settled the area and even then the damage was not extreme. The hunting's pretty good with tens of thousands of acres of public hunting areas within a 30 minute drive. Block a couple of bridges and there would be no worries of refugees from urban areas. I think I'll stay here if things go to hell.
If civil government collapsed, one of the first items on my agenda would be collective self defense in the area. If you're planning on living off the property of other people, Burke County, Georgia would probably be a real good area to avoid. We have plenty of firearms, plenty of people familiar with their use, plenty of trees, and lots of rope.
CoachVince
Member
In an attempt to keep On Topic, ...
I actually think that it would be easier to kill animals for food in town than it would trying to actually hunt for big game animals.
You could live forever on just pidgons (sp ?). Dogs, cats, squirrels, rats, etc are plentiful.
In a long-term SHTF scenario in the suburbs, there would be a rise in the population of feral animals, which, for safety and health reasons, would have to be dealt with. While I might not prefer to dine on someone's former housepet, others would certainly be less picky. I would probably work on trapping a few of the rabbits in the area, and raising them. Not quite as easy, but I might feel a bit less "Road Warrior"-like. Being near the ocean, I could probably do some fishing as well, but I think the beaches would be getting crowded with like-minded folks.
I actually think that it would be easier to kill animals for food in town than it would trying to actually hunt for big game animals.
You could live forever on just pidgons (sp ?). Dogs, cats, squirrels, rats, etc are plentiful.
In a long-term SHTF scenario in the suburbs, there would be a rise in the population of feral animals, which, for safety and health reasons, would have to be dealt with. While I might not prefer to dine on someone's former housepet, others would certainly be less picky. I would probably work on trapping a few of the rabbits in the area, and raising them. Not quite as easy, but I might feel a bit less "Road Warrior"-like. Being near the ocean, I could probably do some fishing as well, but I think the beaches would be getting crowded
with like-minded folks.Excellent Book on this subject...
Read "Patriots: Surviving the Coming Collapse" by James Wesley, Rawles [not a typo on his name].
Well within the realm of the possible, well written, instructive and informative.
Author is "former Army Intelligence officer. He now works as a rancher and freelance writer."
You won't regret reading it, whether or not you think it's possible.
Read "Patriots: Surviving the Coming Collapse" by James Wesley, Rawles [not a typo on his name].
Well within the realm of the possible, well written, instructive and informative.
Author is "former Army Intelligence officer. He now works as a rancher and freelance writer."
You won't regret reading it, whether or not you think it's possible.
MCgunner
Member
Actually, survival fishing is MUCH easier! Down here on the bay, I can get what I want from the water.
Now, I could rig a DC generator pretty easily for cat fishing.
What I'd run it with if there were no gasoline is another matter and hand crank "telephone" generators can be had, but I don't buy one worrying about survival scenarios. However, there's all sorts of fish traps and gill nets and such that could be built. I had a gill net for a while, but that was years ago, when I was doing research at Seabrook marine lab as a student. I am schooled and skilled in illegal ways of catching fish. You really are wasting time with a rod and reel. I do have cast nets and trot lines and such, but it's a ways from my home to the river. However, trot lines, though illegal, work in salt water on redfish, too. Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Hindsight on Katrina: There was more discomfort than actual danger or harm. From a national standpoint, there was a complete infrastructure in place for the rescue effort. Within days, over 100,000 people were involved in the efforts at alleviation and restoration. (Popular Mechanics online magazine) Yet Katrina was the widest-spread disaster we've known.
If one thinks that subsistence hunting will be needed for one's survival, I ask what, in today's world, would likely create that need?
I can see where it could occur with the explosion of suitcase nukes in numerous locations, but I have some difficulty in seeing that sort of multiple event. If it's only one or two, which could well happen, life in the unaffected areas will continue.
But: If you're going to do survival hunting, you're not gonna worry about fair chase. Nightime with a flashlight and a .22 rifle has been quite easy killing for numerous Bambis, much less other edible animals. It's all well and good to talk about cats, rats and puppy dogs in a city, but they won't last long enough to be considered as a meat source over any length of time beyond a week or so.
Which gets back--in my mind, anyhow--to already being in a Good Place when bad things happen on a nationwide basis, if that's your vision. A Katrina-sized event is mostly a money-loss and discomfort event. Riotous events such as the Rodney King afffair are very much localized and easily avoided or escaped.
I dunno. SHTF is an interesting academic exercise, but the real-world probabilities are quite low.
Art
If one thinks that subsistence hunting will be needed for one's survival, I ask what, in today's world, would likely create that need?
I can see where it could occur with the explosion of suitcase nukes in numerous locations, but I have some difficulty in seeing that sort of multiple event. If it's only one or two, which could well happen, life in the unaffected areas will continue.
But: If you're going to do survival hunting, you're not gonna worry about fair chase. Nightime with a flashlight and a .22 rifle has been quite easy killing for numerous Bambis, much less other edible animals. It's all well and good to talk about cats, rats and puppy dogs in a city, but they won't last long enough to be considered as a meat source over any length of time beyond a week or so.
Which gets back--in my mind, anyhow--to already being in a Good Place when bad things happen on a nationwide basis, if that's your vision. A Katrina-sized event is mostly a money-loss and discomfort event. Riotous events such as the Rodney King afffair are very much localized and easily avoided or escaped.
I dunno. SHTF is an interesting academic exercise, but the real-world probabilities are quite low.
Art
Byron Quick
Moderator In Memoriam
One of the areas where you might want to educate yourself is what animals commonly carry diseases that are easily transmitted to humans, how to identify carriers, and how to avoid contracting such. Some species are best avoided entirely except if there is absolutely no other option.
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