SIG eliminated from ATF trials. S&W Vs. Glock.
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sidheshooter
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Micro 380 or slimline 19, anyone?
RhinoDefense
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Glock has been "building a factory" in the US for 20 years. Or that's how long I've heard the rumor.
And yes a lot of LE agencies use reloaded ammunition. More than you think. A lot more.
And yes a lot of LE agencies use reloaded ammunition. More than you think. A lot more.
Dnaltrop
Member
Sig made the 250, and they're trying to make their money back on research, tooling, advertising etc. (There are times you just need to take the loss, walk away and polish up some classics)
The price caught my eye (Sub $500 Sig while i'm looking at NIB 226s) the concept of easily switchable parts is a interesting idea.
It felt cheap. When I get my Sig, i want something that feels like an investment in my hand.
I'm just happy to have a bit of confirmation after the fact of my choice in the M&P .40 as a serviceable weapon. If Glock would just raise the slide clearance by 1/4 inch, I could shoot them without damaging my oversized meathook. I refuse to use a clip-on aftermarket Beavertail.
Took 16 weeks, but my 2 free mags from the M&P rebate finally came in the mail.
The price caught my eye (Sub $500 Sig while i'm looking at NIB 226s) the concept of easily switchable parts is a interesting idea.
It felt cheap. When I get my Sig, i want something that feels like an investment in my hand.
I'm just happy to have a bit of confirmation after the fact of my choice in the M&P .40 as a serviceable weapon. If Glock would just raise the slide clearance by 1/4 inch, I could shoot them without damaging my oversized meathook. I refuse to use a clip-on aftermarket Beavertail.
Took 16 weeks, but my 2 free mags from the M&P rebate finally came in the mail.
possum
Member
i really love glocks for thier reliabilty, and ease of use, but if the m&p is up for contract, which i assume is the gun that they submitted, i really hope it gets the contract. It would be good to see s&w used by a Fed agency.
TexasBill
Member
I'd like to see S&W get the contract because I think it's a better pistol than the Glock. And it's definitely a much better pistol than the SIG P250.
A number of Beretta products are made at their facility in Accokeek, Maryland; FN-Herstal manufactures the FNP and FNX pistols in Columbia, South Carolina, SIG Sauer has a manufacturing facility in Exeter, New Hampshire.
As to the poster who moaned about U.S. taxes - please explain why Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Subaru, Hyundai, Kia, Volkswagen, Mercedes-Benz and BMW all have U.S. subsidiaries with manufacturing plants located in the U.S.? After that, explain why we did so well in the Golden Years from the early 1950s to the 1970s, when both business and individual taxes were higher? I am not saying U.S. taxes couldn't be trimmed (they're lower in France, believe it or not), I am saying taxes are being used as a straw man argument.
A number of Beretta products are made at their facility in Accokeek, Maryland; FN-Herstal manufactures the FNP and FNX pistols in Columbia, South Carolina, SIG Sauer has a manufacturing facility in Exeter, New Hampshire.
As to the poster who moaned about U.S. taxes - please explain why Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Subaru, Hyundai, Kia, Volkswagen, Mercedes-Benz and BMW all have U.S. subsidiaries with manufacturing plants located in the U.S.? After that, explain why we did so well in the Golden Years from the early 1950s to the 1970s, when both business and individual taxes were higher? I am not saying U.S. taxes couldn't be trimmed (they're lower in France, believe it or not), I am saying taxes are being used as a straw man argument.
Do you remember all the mud thrown at the Government by Armalite and Stoner in the Government evaluation of the AR15?. That is how biased the Government tests were against their rifle?
Read SIG"s complaints against the AFT tests. Generally falls into the categories of "The Government is not properly testing their weapon, the Government hates us."
Same old, same old.
Read SIG"s complaints against the AFT tests. Generally falls into the categories of "The Government is not properly testing their weapon, the Government hates us."
Same old, same old.
Having to choose between a Glock and an M&P, I'll go Glock. On trigger alone.
Sad to see Sig contest the decision. Especially the reliability portion.
Wonder if Sigs new slogan should be "To hell with reliability".
They should have submitted a 2022 instead. TJ
Sad to see Sig contest the decision. Especially the reliability portion.
Wonder if Sigs new slogan should be "To hell with reliability".
They should have submitted a 2022 instead. TJ
fastbolt
Member
Apparently both S&W and Glock were awarded maximum $40M contracts good for up to 10 years.
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&tab=core&id=e121e835387839577bc2b57c2897e987
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&tab=core&id=bd51b091482215c94c1c9c89b799f26f
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&tab=core&id=e121e835387839577bc2b57c2897e987
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&tab=core&id=bd51b091482215c94c1c9c89b799f26f
wow6599
Member
They were looking for a full size and compact in 40S&W for each agent.....maybe a M&P40 and G27. I love the M&P line in FS, but I think the small Glocks (26 &27) are better than the M&Pc. I know it wouldn't make sense (mag compatibility), but since when does anything our government do make sense?
fastbolt
Member
Here's a better link to the solicitations and amendments. While the specific models haven't been announced (where I could find them, anyway), if you read the updated amendments you'll find references to "full size" and "compact".
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportu...13dfefab943e194e68e4a6e23d2&tab=core&_cview=1
In the S&W line that would mean the M&P 40/40c, and in the Glock line the G22/23. If this is how it came down, and the G27 wasn't requested or submitted, then it would seem S&W has a potential advantage for some users since the M&P 40c "compact" is actually more like the G27 than the G23.
EDITED: Someone on another forum took the time to read through the specs and observed the G23 doesn't seem to meet the "compact" dimension requirements, so perhaps the G27 is what was being tested (regardless of what Glock may label their models regarding "size"). Good catch. The press release will probably be forthcoming pretty quickly to resolve any questions, though. Besides, when you think about it, the BATFE does have intimate knowledge of the guns made by each firearms company, so if they submitted a size specification it would seem reasonable to suspect they knew exactly what models would meet their requirements in that regard.
M&P 40c & G27:
I suppose we'll see as time passes and the details are approved for public release.
No, both S&W and Glock "won".
The long & short of it is that these contracts are apparently the largest non-military small arms contracts in U.S. history.
Congrats to S&W and Glock. (Especially after both failed to win in the earlier DHS testing ).
FWIW, I wouldn't worry about the 'commonality' of either parts or magazines. Look how NYPD has supported the choice of S&W, Sig and Glock by its officers for years.
"Parts is parts" and both designs are relatively easy when it comes to armorer support (I'm an armorer for both Glock and the M&P pistols series).
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportu...13dfefab943e194e68e4a6e23d2&tab=core&_cview=1
In the S&W line that would mean the M&P 40/40c, and in the Glock line the G22/23. If this is how it came down, and the G27 wasn't requested or submitted, then it would seem S&W has a potential advantage for some users since the M&P 40c "compact" is actually more like the G27 than the G23.
EDITED: Someone on another forum took the time to read through the specs and observed the G23 doesn't seem to meet the "compact" dimension requirements, so perhaps the G27 is what was being tested (regardless of what Glock may label their models regarding "size"). Good catch. The press release will probably be forthcoming pretty quickly to resolve any questions, though. Besides, when you think about it, the BATFE does have intimate knowledge of the guns made by each firearms company, so if they submitted a size specification it would seem reasonable to suspect they knew exactly what models would meet their requirements in that regard.
M&P 40c & G27:
I suppose we'll see as time passes and the details are approved for public release.
No, both S&W and Glock "won".
The long & short of it is that these contracts are apparently the largest non-military small arms contracts in U.S. history.
Congrats to S&W and Glock. (Especially after both failed to win in the earlier DHS testing
).FWIW, I wouldn't worry about the 'commonality' of either parts or magazines. Look how NYPD has supported the choice of S&W, Sig and Glock by its officers for years.
"Parts is parts" and both designs are relatively easy when it comes to armorer support (I'm an armorer for both Glock and the M&P pistols series).
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migkillertwo
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Some M&Ps have a safety lever. My Dad's M&P does, I hate the damn thing. Other than that, it's amazing.
Detritus
Member
Um, Actually Armalite/Stoner had a Legit beef in that case.
Amoung other issues/biases, those in charge of much of the evaluation knew for a fact that adoption of the AR15 would result in the end of government owned production of military arms.
Several of the "tests" in that evaluation were intentionally slanted to provide no way for the AR to "pass", like replacing the roll pins holding the FSB on with undersized steel pins (one source says pieces of small Dia welding rod), Ooops it don't shoot straight no more, must be a POS design!!.
SIG on the other hand is just whining and asked for a "do over"
It's staggering to think that SIG lost the chance of a $40M contract based on the performance of just four pistols and twenty shooters with only 2,000 rounds fired per pistol. 13 gun-induced stoppages i.e. 0.16% was enough to get SIG eliminated from the trials ... tough crowd!!
Where's the data for the Phase III test where 20,000 rounds were fired through each of six pistols per manufacturer? That's 120,000 rounds per manufacturer and we (the taxpayer) paid for that data. It would have been interesting to see how the SIG P250 peformed for those tests. Too bad the ATF eliminated SIG after Phase II ... perhaps they only had 250,000 rounds on hand!
Where's the data for the Phase III test where 20,000 rounds were fired through each of six pistols per manufacturer? That's 120,000 rounds per manufacturer and we (the taxpayer) paid for that data. It would have been interesting to see how the SIG P250 peformed for those tests. Too bad the ATF eliminated SIG after Phase II ... perhaps they only had 250,000 rounds on hand!
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spiroxlii
Member
hirundo82 said:
The Hrvatski Samokres is used by major agencies as their primary handgun. The Czech military and police both use it.
Or rather tough competitors--neither the Glocks nor the M&Ps experienced any gun-induced stoppages at all, if I read the report correctly. This is consistent with my own experiences with these two particular designs (once the M&P got over its initial issues from being new).
spiroxlii
Member
Also, keep in mind that shooter-induced stoppages are the shooters fault; however, some gun designs are more forgiving than others. I only keep a pistol if it proves to be reliable, but I've observed novice shooters causing jams by limp wristing one of my pistols (specifically, my 1911), only to fire off six magazines without any malfunctions from another of my pistols (specifically, my XD).
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