SIG Opinions and it's not another KABOOM THREAD!!! LoL!

[USMCDK]

Some of your story is true and some leans towrds assumtion. I am not going to pick it apart at this time, but you and I know where the fiction and fact lies within that story.

BTW what is the name of the gentleman that ran Kimber and now runs SigSauer???

 

[rellascout]

Nothing I have stated is assumption. It is 100% accurate. If you are going to make that claim you should back it up. IMHO If you don't know the truth about what I have posted you don't know Sig. Your little dig as if I am making these things up is totally uncalled for. Please tell me what points are assumptions. They are clearly not the company they used to be. They are not even close to being a top customer service or manufacturing company they want and claim to be.

Ron Cohen is the current president of Sig Sauer.

Ron J. Cohen is President and Chief Executive Officer of SIG SAUER®.

Mr. Cohen joined the company in December of 2004 as the Company's Chief Operating Officer. He was named President and Chief Executive Officer on April 1, 2005.

Prior to joining the company, Mr. Cohen served as General Manager of Kimber Manufacturing, since its inception on the East Coast in 1996. Born in the USA, Mr. Cohen studied engineering at Technion, in Haifa, Israel. He also served as a combat field commander in the Israeli Army.

http://www.sigsauer.com/AboutUs/Management2.aspx

 

[USMCDK]

Ah that is all that I wanted to see my friend... you back up what you said and that is all I wanted. I should have just asked you a lil more politely and I apologize for not doing so.

+100 for you and your homework

 

[MarcusWendt]

I tend to agree with Rellascout concerning issues at Sig Sauer. I love my Sigs and wouldn't part with them, but lately things seem to be slipping. They've been making the P220 for how long and NOW they have extractor problems? Not good. I know Bruce Gray at Gray Guns is working on an after market extractor due to this problem.

I personally have not had any problems with my Sigs, but I don't own a P220, a Mosquito, or a 556. I am considering a 1911 from them, but only after I'm assured they are over their teething pains.

My experience with customer service has been great.

What bothers me most is that they have discontinued or bastardized so many of the flagship weapons that made them great in favor of flashing pimp guns. Tails and aluminum grips? Come on! What's next? Pearl grips?

There was nothing wrong with the classic P series, why screw with it?

The Pro series seems to be going away slowly in favor of the P250

I don't like the direction Sig Sauer is going. It's hard for me to say that as a life long Sig Fan.

 

[USMCDK]

I must say you guys should probably post this stuff on the Sig forum as well as loyal and valued fans of their products. Heck give such info to the customer service people here as well... Granted they like hearing about all the good things, but they really like to hear about the bad, that's how they can go about fixing what's wrong and keep you loyal fans as valued clients.

Like I said before I am still learning alot about this company... I feel lucky to be here and learn what's what first hand, instead of online where many fictions begin and fester like a badly infected wound.

Anywho keep the post coming, it's all good knowledge and having it come from you guys makes things better, all because I can get both sides of the story you know???

 

[rellascout]

The sad part is that I love Sigs. I cut my teeth on the P228 and still consider it one of the finest 9mm ever made. I love my custom BHP more but that's another thread.

I just think that people need to be aware of the changes at Sig. Sigarms in its beginning was an importer. The guns were made in W. Germany or later just Germany and imported by SigArms.

There was a transition point back in the early 2000's. They started to manufacture pistols. Early on it was a mix. Mainly they were assembling parts from Germany. The product was still high quality and true to the company history. They then expanded to milling slides and assembling them on to German frames.

Round about 2003 they started to manufacture everything. The mill the slides they produce the frames. When the took over everything I think they bit off more than they can chew. They are suffering growing pains of bringing everything in house.

P.S. I have over 2000 posts on the Sig Forum!!!! Go check out this thread and see what Sig thinks of its commerical customers.

http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/1441027321/p/1

 

[AK103K]

I have a bunch of SIG's, both old and new, and never had any issues with any of them. They all have been 99.99% reliable and all are more accurate than I am. Sure, there are a couple of the new models I'm not thrilled about, so its real simple for me, I just dont buy them. I've always liked the plain old stock SA/DA models myself anyway.

Change is inevitable, and as with anything else, you get those that bitch. SIG is no different than any other big company out to make money. They are also a lot better than most of the others, as they seem to turn out very few problems. For me, they still rate up in the top three makers across my lifetime. They way I rate them is, 'have I ever had to send on in for service'. Of the 15 SIG's I own, the answer has been 'never'. The only other two I've had the same experience with has been HK and Colt.

If you dont like the way they are going, hey, buy something else and work your way through the masses of makes and models trying to find what SIG has provided all along, even through the changes. The pickings are slim and I'll bet your back before to long.

 

[USMCDK]

You know I really have to agree with you on this one, I really shouldn't but I just have to, for honesty's sake...

This is Why I own an H&K still just as reliable as their German bretheran made pistols. I have no complaints, NONE, about my USP45. I really do want a SIG in the future, so I am keeping my eyes open and I am talking to alot of the guys and gals here. I am hoping that they will help me out and give me the best that they can offer.

I will have to say more but only in PM's about this one subject that has come about. Any more could have my @$$ canned...

Sincerely,

USMCDK

 

[Lonestar49]

It's just ~ The_Magic ~

Change is inevitable, and as with anything else, you get those that bitch. SIG is no different than any other big company out to make money. They are also a lot better than most of the others, as they seem to turn out very few problems. For me, they still rate up in the top three makers across my lifetime. They way I rate them is, 'have I ever had to send on in for service'. Of the 15 SIG's I own, the answer has been 'never'. The only other two I've had the same experience with has been HK and Colt.

If you don't like the way they are going, hey, buy something else and work your way through the masses of makes and models trying to find what SIG has provided all along, even through the changes. The pickings are slim and I'll bet your back before to long.

...

Have to agree here, and hope that I'm right in guns have spirits, and if they feel they have a good home, they do what makes ya happy.. 100% in my Sigs case..

I really think they feel the lovin..


Ls

Ps.. This should bring someone a smile.. lol "the quote"

 

[rellascout]

I have a bunch of SIG's, both old and new, and never had any issues with any of them. They all have been 99.99% reliable and all are more accurate than I am. Sure, there are a couple of the new models I'm not thrilled about, so its real simple for me, I just dont buy them. I've always liked the plain old stock SA/DA models myself anyway.

Change is inevitable, and as with anything else, you get those that bitch. SIG is no different than any other big company out to make money. They are also a lot better than most of the others, as they seem to turn out very few problems. For me, they still rate up in the top three makers across my lifetime. They way I rate them is, 'have I ever had to send on in for service'. Of the 15 SIG's I own, the answer has been 'never'. The only other two I've had the same experience with has been HK and Colt.

If you dont like the way they are going, hey, buy something else and work your way through the masses of makes and models trying to find what SIG has provided all along, even through the changes. The pickings are slim and I'll bet your back before to long.

I love this type of mentality. Let me make some corrections to your post. Sig Sauer is not a big company. It is a pretty small company. It has less than 300 employees. Most of those have been added in the last year and a half.

So prior to 2007 they had less than 100 employees. That's because they were still more of an importer than a manufacturer. It stuns me how little people know about the company that they praise so highly and blindly.

Some people are bitching as you put it because of the Kimber style of the new Sig pistols. Others are bitching because the things that they are bringing to market are inferior to the old German made P series on which the Sig reputation was built.

The GSR, 556 Rifle, mosquito and the poor implentation of the new extractor on the milled slide of the P220.

I mean seriously compare the real Sig 550 to the American made Sig Sauer 556. It is joke in comparison. They are flat out cheesy when you compare the two. The Swiss Sig is a piece of art. The 556 is a shadow of the 550.

It is not about change its about defective to piss poor products being pushed to market before they are ready because they need to grow sales. I am happy for you that you have never had to send something to Sig. I hope that trend continues.

Others who have paid a high premium for Hell and Back reliability but got 3 point jams out of the box on their $1000+ P220 are not just bitching about change. They are bitching because they shelled out $1000 and got a paper weight. The way you paint these people and their issues is dismissive and insulting.

 

[1BLINDREF]

I have to agree with AK103Ks post. (again)

I also own a bunch of Sigs. I've only had to send one back (a new railed P226!). Turns out there was a problem with the hammer and sear. Sig replaced them and had it back to me in 9 days! They also offered to pay for shipping if I wanted to send one of my others in with it for the SSP service.
I've been collecting / shooting Sigs since 1995 when I bought my first one, a new P228. From that day I was hooked! I can't even begin to guess how many total rounds that I've put through all of my Sigs. To have had only one "issue" with all of those Sigs and all of those rounds, IMHO is pretty good.

Any company is going to have some issues. Some have more than others.
I measure a company, any company or business, by how they handle problems with their products or service.

I like some of the new stuff that Sig is coming out with, but not all of it.
I'm not a big fan of the tails. Thats why I haven't bought one. I like the SASs and the DAK trigger system. I have two SASs and a P229 .40S&W DAK. IMHO, they make great CCWs.
I'm OK with Sig coming out with the new stuff. They have to change with the times or go out of business. Its that simple. I just wish they would still offer the "P" series without a rail as well as with a rail. Like AK103K said, I just don't buy the ones I don't like.

Just about every product we use has changed, some drastically. Just take a look at cars made in the 80's and 90's vs todays cars.

I think that's what they call progress. Sometimes its good, and sometimes not so good.


USMCDK-

What job do you have at Sig???

 

[rellascout]

Again you are missing the point. My beef is not that they should not change. How many times does one have to say that.

The problem is that the "NEW" stuff had been poorly executed. They are not up to the old Sig standard set by German made Sigs.

I mean come on are you actually defending Sig having an airsoft manufacture make their 22LR pistol after the Hammerli melt down?

You think canted rails and mis matched finishes on a $1300 rifle with no iron sights is okay.

Man I love Sig but am not blind to the facts. They have some internal growing problems. I do not understand why people over look that. You are doing exactly what they want you to do. Apply the reputation of the older pistols which you and I both love to the new stuff.

Oh by the way my P220 SAS failed to feed right out of the box. Yes they are working on it and I am not being charged but I have paid for a high $$$ gun and will have to wait 2 weeks to see if they fixed it on the first try. Many people with the P220 extractor problem have had to send it back multiple times.

You have stated that you have not had a problem. That is great. You are within the norm. My issues is that people like you who have not had issues seem to have the need to cover up for Sig and label those who have had issues complainers.

 

[1BLINDREF]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not giving Sig a free pass.
I'd feel differently if I personally had that many problems. I'm just posting my personal experience and my opinions of the new "bling" type guns that Sig is designing.

I have a P220 SAS Carry and a P220ST that has not had one extractor issue or any feeding problems.

I agree that Sigs quality control seems to be lacking by all of the posts that I've read on the Sig Forum. Sometimes I wonder if we hear more about the problems because of the internet forums that make it easy to put the stories out there.

I do wish that that quality of the new Sigs were on par with the old classic "P" series. That is what got me hooked in the first place.

I just think that it's a sign of the times. Quality of work and the attitude of the workers has definately gone down hill in most trades.

It's a sad and unfortunate thing.

 

[MarcusWendt]

I don't feel quite as harshly as Rellascout on this, but I do tend to agree with him.

A great example is the Beaver tail. 1) Why? Was ANYONE getting hammer bite from a P series without the BT? No they weren't so it's just glitz AND it makes it just a little more difficult to CCW if that's your thing.

By discontinuing adding the BT to the ST line they took the ST option away from me. These with eh BT are NOT CA approved. Thanks Sig. You just pissed on all your loyal CA customers and there are many.

Need I even touch on the platinum edition? What's next, a fuzzy large rimmed pimp hat with the Sig logo?

I think some of their current stuff is still great, but it's the trend I see developing that bugs me.

The ST line was very popular, why not keep it if you must add, add to, not replace.

The P220 and P226 LONG enjoyed a spectacular reputation for out of the box reliability and accuracy. Why would you mess with that, and in the process 1) cut off access to one of the largest states in the country and 2) screw up a previously reliable weapon i.e. the P220 extractor issue.

Improvement is good, but I don't see the improvement.

I am still very loyal to Sig...For the product I can still have access to and the older proven design, but if things continue this way, I'll have no choice but to go elsewhere.

I do post this stuff in SF and I do write to Sig.

 

[Lonestar49]

And what Cars should we not be driving, etc., etc.. ?

You have stated that you have not had a problem. That is great. You are within the norm. My issues is that people like you who have not had issues seem to have the need to cover up for Sig and label those who have had issues complainers.

...

Have a "need" to Cover-up??

Is that like the Pot calling the Kettle black? Or more,

Like this:




Pretty much by your own admission, you follow any Sig thread around and spill the same story of grief, mainly as I understand it, your P220 had an extractor problem.. the 22's only accept the best 22lr ammo, and P220's don't need beaver tails, and on and on.. And, by your own words, when you continually call them for whatever, they pretty much put you on hold..

Show me any gun and manufacturer that doesn't produce a weapon that now and then, some defective part, made "by man", gets thru, works fine during the testing-firing fase, gets boxed up, and sent out for sale..

Move on, let the new wave of plastic guns, etc., come and go, as those of us can pick and choose from new and "used" with what guns that make us happy, and speak highly of them, from how they have "worked for us continually", along with, if one had a problem, then let him speak of the company service he received, and let the chips fall where they may, on a person to person basis..

With change, comes teething problems, you've made your point and we get the picture, it all doesn't work..




Ls


Ps.. and USMCDK or MOD, will delete if asked, as I don't want this thread locked..

 

[rellascout]

Lonestar,

I will respectfully tell you to rep-read the thread.

I have posted some negative things about Sig in the this and one other thread. I have also stated positives. That is hardly every Sig thread. Your condescending tone is BS.

What you call teething I call defects. What makes it worse is that the new Sig does not admit to being at fault. At least other companies like Ruger admit to the issues and recall pistols and correct the fundamental problems not just the ones that they get called out on.

Keep buying new Sigs and you will see what I am talking about. Let me finally say that you turning this thread about SIG into a thread about me is distasteful. It shows a lack of class and a lack of respect for other members who's opinion differs from yours.

 

[rellascout]

The P220 and P226 LONG enjoyed a spectacular reputation for out of the box reliability and accuracy. Why would you mess with that, and in the process 1) cut off access to one of the largest states in the country and 2) screw up a previously reliable weapon i.e. the P220 extractor issue.

Improvement is good, but I don't see the improvement.

I am still very loyal to Sig...For the product I can still have access to and the older proven design, but if things continue this way, I'll have no choice but to go elsewhere.

I do post this stuff in SF and I do write to Sig.

The changed the P220 design and the design of the P226 so they could mill the slides in the US instead of stamping them in Germany.

The P220 problems surfaced because the extractor had to be changed in order to function in the new milled slide. It was not an improvement it was a cost and control issue.

They want to be a manufacturer not an importer. They were already milling the P229 slides and did not want to poney up for the cost of setup and training required to stamp the slides. It was an economy of scale cost cutting measure. Yet the price of the pistol did not go down in fact it continues to go up.

I think that more people need to make it known that the current direction of Sig is not pleasing the die hards. They are putting them off or pushing them into the used market. I for one will not be buying another new Sig unless I see major changes.

P.S. 1BLINDREF Thank you for your well thought out post. I agree with a lot of what you are saying. I cut my teeth on the old Sig P series too.

 

[MechAg94]

Anyone have any experience with that new P250? It is a bit cheaper than the other P series pistols.

I had been considering getting a higher capacity 9mm, but I may just get another cheap P225/P6. We'll see.

I bought a P220 a month ago. It has worked perfectly over the first few hundred rounds.

 

[Lonestar49]

Here's the fence IMO

You have stated that you have not had a problem. That is great. You are within the norm. My issues is that people like you who have not had issues seem to have the need to cover up for Sig and label those who have had issues complainers.

...

This is where you and I differ, greatly..

To label those of us that like our Sigs, of late, (*2004, and on, *as I forget the actual year of the_turn-over), had NO problems with them, or for those that did and received, fast, fair, warranty work, or otherwise, and speak highly of our experiences, have been unfairly "grouped" and "seem to have a need to cover up for Sig", let alone, it's ending false statement.. Well, least till, IMO, you pushed that last statement, and yep, I didn't say that about you, until "of late" because you have taken my words, and others, and twisted them, implying something we didn't say about you at all, up until this point.

It's one thing to share one's opinions, it's another to be preached-at, full history lesson included, for being part of "the total problem", mainly your problem, not mine nor others that have only posted, shared, their experience's with Sig guns, Service, and personal Use, of our guns.

And how I feel about some of Sigs plastic guns, or any of their other guns, good or bad, is just that, IMO, but to part of some kind of cover-up for problems you have, and see, in their new products is over-stepping, and reaching, without my approval, and as I have said, and will accept, either by the OP, USMCKD or a MOD, IF they feel I'm in error, and say so, I will delete it, I have no problem with their decision on the matter..


Ls

 

[MechAg94]

On the beaver tails, a guy on the FBMG forum mentioned that he had a P229 in .40 that in his opinion had a lot of muzzle flip when shooting. He got a P229 with the beaver tail and said that problem pretty much went away. In his opinion, the beaver tail was a good thing.

I don't have the link handy. That forum is new enough it is probably easy to find.

 

[rellascout]

Lonestar,

Again you are trying to make this thread about me not about Sig. Clearly a violation of this forums rules. Do you want to talk about Sig Sauer and its pistols. If you do then lets do that. If you want to continue to make it personal that's fine to. It does not reflect poorly on me it only makes you look worse.

MechAg94

Sigs are fine pistols. The majority run well but there are problems.

I have not heard bad too many issues with the P250s. There have been issues here and there. Seem to remember an issue with the modular firing control fitting in the frame and binding on at least one shooter but nothing systemic.

I have not see any real issues that are repeated over and over again. They are new so you have to take that into account. People have not really put them through their paces yet.

I was not a fan of the trigger. I am not a big polymer guy but I understand and appreciate the concept. I think that this is the future of guns. It is a lot like the Blaser, Sigs high end Rifles, concept. Technically its one gun. a Single frame which can accommodate multiple calibers. By switching parts. You could literally carry one frame 3 barrels mags etc... and have three pistols.

You can even expand that to different frame sizes. I personally don't have a need for it because I shoot 9mm and 45 only and my needs are met by other guns which soot me better but the concept is great.

I would wait to get one. The price is not going up in the next year and there will be a lot more feedback in 6 to 9 months then there is today.

 

[Lonestar49]

On the beaver tails, a guy on the FBMG forum mentioned that he had a P229 in .40 that in his opinion had a lot of muzzle flip when shooting. He got a P229 with the beaver tail and said that problem pretty much went away. In his opinion, the beaver tail was a good thing.

I don't have the link handy. That forum is new enough it is probably easy to find.

...

I agree with that, even though my P229 40cal or my P220 have no beaver tail, nor do I "feel the need for one", I have seen several of both models and their owners, with beaver tails, along with a big on their faces and nice groups at my range..

To each his own, and if it helps, makes for a better performing gun for the owner, then by all means, Sig has "offered the buyer" another "choice" and filled a different, set of hands, grip style or, strength-need, for balance.

What's wrong with that picture..?

Nothing IMO,


Ls

 

[Stephen A. Camp]

Have received a couple of separate emails and complaints from different members posting in this thread. One wants this and that post removed while the other wants different ones removed. There is no way to please everyone and I'm not inclined to try as experiences over the years here have shown that that is just not possible.

This thread is done.

If it is resurrected in a new thread, fine, but let us please try and keep things at THR standards. I am beginning to believe it is impossible as "reported threads", complaints and so forth seem to be much greater than in even recent times past.

I am beginning to wonder if I've just been too easy in not banning when I might should have? I think that perhaps I have . That is fixing to change. Please do not be the first to find that out.