Sig P320 self shooters

[halfmoonclip]

Hmmmm, MSN and The Hill. The names alone make my alarm bells ring about anything they might report.
Concur with a PP; there is such extreme bias in reporting on gun issues, that a grain of salt the size of Lot's wife is in order.
Moon

 

[tarosean]

Can you reference where this footage of "other Sig 320s going off in LEOs holsters" you personally viewed can be seen? I'd be very interested in watching it too.

While I dislike Sig. I can find video instances of Glocks doing this quite easily. Yet nothing on the Sigs.

 

[Palladan44]

Did you perhaps mean S&W?

I'm sure they're out there, but an LE agency using Springfield pistols that are not 1911's would be very rare.

Yes indeed. Edited.
Brain fart.

 

[Shipwreck]

Speak of the devil... Story from today:

Wis. FOP recommends police across the state stop using Sig Sauer P320

MILWAUKEE —

With three documented cases in two years of a Milwaukee police officer's gun apparently firing without anyone pulling the trigger, the Wisconsin Fraternal Order of Police recommends police departments across the state shelve the controversial firearm out of an abundance of caution.

In a memo dated July 30, 2020, the department range master, a sergeant, questioned why, in a conference call with officials from Sig Sauer, the gun maker representatives avoided answering directly whether they could guarantee the guns would not fire unless the trigger was pulled.

https://www.wisn.com/article/wis-fo...the-state-stop-using-sig-sauer-p320/41202525#

 

[Ethan Verity]

TFBtv did a good video on this using a rubber mallet, where they got a P320 to fire without even touching the trigger just by hitting the end of the slide. The design isn't drop safe; and in the slow motion video the problem is clear as day - it's that solid one piece trigger on a striker fired pistol! There is a reason most every striker fired pistol has some sort of scissor, or hinged, trigger design.

Basically with a hard enough rearward impact, the combined momentum of the trigger bar and trigger is enough to overcome the springs, fully pull the trigger, and fire the gun!

In the case of a scissor trigger design (think Glock), the light weight/spring loaded center insert remains forward and stops the heavier trigger/trigger bar from going back to the sear.

I know Sig made some changes to the mechanism when this became apparent, which supposedly fixed this problem... However, I'm still a bit leery to trust them since they still have those solid triggers. I don't know what changes were made, but I would assume they either increased the trigger pull weight, or physically lightened the trigger bar. Either of which would allow it to take a harder blow without firing... but it still could fire. If anyone does know what changes were made during that recall, I would be interested to know for sure.

-edited to fix spelling.

 

[Old Dog]

This just happened over the weekend in Milwaukee.
https://www.tmj4.com/news/local-new...-going-off-without-anyone-pulling-the-trigger

An internet history of going off with no human pulling the trigger.

And I still believe it's people -- especially in law enforcement -- trying to cover up their lack of safe gun-handling which has led to bad outcomes.

Refer to my post #17; nothing has changed.

 

[Gordon]

Well I'll watch how hard I stick the muzzle of my Sig P320XTen with it's 4 pound pull into the bear that attacks me. Otherwise if the muzzle hits a hard object straight on to cause the straight trigger to fire the gun when dropped I'll have to practice catching it in the air when it rockets back up to Look Cool .

 

[Shipwreck]

An internet history of going off with no human pulling the trigger.

And I still believe it's people -- especially in law enforcement -- trying to cover up their lack of safe gun-handling which has led to bad outcomes.

Refer to my post #17; nothing has changed.

I hear ya... But no offense.... This seems more suspicious than just your feelings:

(from the news story I posted above)

In a memo dated July 30, 2020, the department range master, a sergeant, questioned why, in a conference call with officials from Sig Sauer, the gun maker representatives avoided answering directly whether they could guarantee the guns would not fire unless the trigger was pulled.

 

[Ethan Verity]

TFBtv did a good video on this using a rubber mallet, where they got a P320 to fire without even touching the trigger just by hitting the end of the slide. The design isn't drop safe; and in the slow motion video the problem is clear as day - it's that solid one piece trigger on a striker fired pistol! There is a reason most every striker fired pistol has some sort of scissor, or hinged, trigger design.

Basically with a hard enough rearward impact, the combined momentum of the trigger bar and trigger is enough to overcome the springs, fully pull the trigger, and fire the gun!

In the case of a scissor trigger design (think Glock), the light weight/spring loaded center insert remains forward and stops the heavier trigger/trigger bar from going back to the sear.

I know Sig made some changes to the mechanism when this became apparent, which supposedly fixed this problem... However, I'm still a bit leery to trust them since they still have those solid triggers. I don't know what changes were made, but I would assume they either increased the trigger pull weight, or physically lightened the trigger bar. Either of which would allow it to take a harder blow without firing... but it still could fire. If anyone does know what changes were made during that recall, I would be interested to know for sure.

-edited to fix spelling.

I found the TFB TV video I was referring to in my above post. It didn't even take a very hard blow! Linked here:


I will note that his personal conclusion in the video was that it isn't the trigger coming back under momentum, however I DO NOT agree with his conclusion.

If you watch the slow motion video, with the additional slow motion setting on YouTube, you can see the trigger moving rearward during the mallet blow that fires the gun. The camera simply isn't slow enough to capture this clearly, it only shows up in 1 frame. But I stand by the statement in my original post as the root cause.

 

[Old Dog]

I found the TFB TV video I was referring to in my above post. It didn't even take a very hard blow! Linked here:


I will note that his personal conclusion in the video was that it isn't the trigger coming back under momentum, however I DO NOT agree with his conclusion.

If you watch the slow motion video, with the additional slow motion setting on YouTube, you can see the trigger moving rearward during the mallet blow that fires the gun. The camera simply isn't slow enough to capture this clearly, it only shows up in 1 frame. But I stand by the statement in my original post as the root cause.

You do realize this video is from August 8, 2017, right?

SIG announced that all P-320s manufactured AFTER August 9, 2017 had incorporated "the fix" and were drop-safe, and that all P-320s sent in for the upgrade were also drop-safe.

We really need to ensure that when posting "information" as facts from the internet that the most current information is used.

Again, TTAG's article from last year and its investigation (which I quoted in post #17) did a pretty good job explaining things.

 

[1KPerDay]

Drop safe and "gun going off while in holster" are different issues. I've seen one credible report of the latter with the 320 (but of course I can't find it now). Something about the partially pre-cocked striker slipping off the doohickey or whatever. But I don't doubt the majority of these cases are cops futzing with their guns and NDing them.

 

[5-SHOTS]

There's also this video which is even much more interesting:


Still five years old but very important because shows what was exactly the problem.

I don't know how exactly SIG-Sauer fixed the problem but I seem to remember they only reduced the weight (inertia) of the trigger paddle. If someone has more details I'll read them avidly.
Other manufacturers uses striker fired triggers without the dingus but the trigger is articulated in a way that only the action of the human finger can cause the shot; in that case a simple fall, even if it occurs from a good height, cannot in any way replicate the action of the human finger.

 

[Ethan Verity]

You do realize this video is from August 8, 2017, right?

SIG announced that all P-320s manufactured AFTER August 9, 2017 had incorporated "the fix" and were drop-safe, and that all P-320s sent in for the upgrade were also drop-safe.

We really need to ensure that when posting "information" as facts from the internet that the most current information is used.

Again, TTAG's article from last year and its investigation (which I quoted in post #17) did a pretty good job explaining things.

Gotcha, I missed it originally. I'll take a look at that article now.

 

[Ethan Verity]

You do realize this video is from August 8, 2017, right?

SIG announced that all P-320s manufactured AFTER August 9, 2017 had incorporated "the fix" and were drop-safe, and that all P-320s sent in for the upgrade were also drop-safe.

We really need to ensure that when posting "information" as facts from the internet that the most current information is used.

Again, TTAG's article from last year and its investigation (which I quoted in post #17) did a pretty good job explaining things.

OK, I read through the article, and also watched this video explaining the mechanical safety systems incorporated into the Sig pistol:


I'll admit, it's impressive the efforts Sig incorporated for the sake of safety into these guns... but all of these mechanical safety mechanisms only work if the trigger isn't pulled. When the trigger is pulled, whether by a finger, OR by the momentum from a hard rearward hit, the gun still fires. A momentum trigger pull is no different than a finger trigger pull. At which point, all of these other safety mechanisms become moot.

 

[TomJ]

I see the language I pasted below on Sig's website. Other than that I don't see anything from Sig addressing this issue. I understand that their attorneys want them to be careful about what they say publicly due to the ongoing litigation, but as a small business owner if people were making claims regarding my business that was costing me customers I'd put out information refuting those claims and make that information as public as necessary. The silence from Sig is puzzling to me. If these claims are false they should release information regarding why these AD's can not happen. I'm curious as to whether anyone's seen this information from them.

Edit to add: It looks like Sig filed suit against the attorney claiming misrepresentations, so they are pushing back on these claims. The link is pasted below.


https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2022/03/08/sig-sauer-lawsuit-p320/


SAFETY WITHOUT COMPROMISE
Safety isn’t negotiable. The P320 maximizes peace of mind with a robust safety system including both a striker safety and a disconnect safety, and because of its innovative 3-point takedown safety, never again will you need to pull the trigger to disassemble your pistol.

 

[toivo]

don't know how exactly SIG-Sauer fixed the problem but I seem to remember they only reduced the weight (inertia) of the trigger paddle. If someone has more details I'll read them avidly.

They also added a mechanical disconnector. More info here:
https://www.minutemanreview.com/sig-p320-safety/

 

[5-SHOTS]

They also added a mechanical disconnector. More info here:
https://www.minutemanreview.com/sig-p320-safety/

Thank you. I read the article in the link you posted. The new disconnector they added serves to prevent the fire if the slide is out of battery. In practice, the only thing they did to make the pistol drop free was to decrease the weight (inertia) of the trigger shoe, which was also verified as a solution by the people who made the video I posted earlier.

 

[citizenconn]

Not to worry, Gordon-unless the Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines are all in cahoots with the SIG "coverup".

I cahoot with no one.