Since when did Kimber quaility go down the tubes?

[45auto]

I've never talked to Kimber service, but I have to feel sorry for the guy!
Can you imagine taking the "brunt" of the "issues" with external extractors, series II, short barreled 1911's and they are the largest sellers of 1911's.


It probably was a sweet job when they produced only series I and no 3" 1911s.

I'd still "guess" that the vast majority of Kimbers work well in the 5" barrel.

I wouldn't buy one because of the series II, but I'll still "stick up" for them in many ways. They did "reinvent" the production 1911 over 10 years ago, improved the overall quality, forced others to "step up", and they could "reinvent" themselves again IMO...it's time.

 

[Mot45acp]

My Ultra Carry CDP II is the first Officer 1911 to function without problems. After 2 Springers and a Colt that were single shots.

Just got a Custom II with external extractor. $500 no problems yet.

 

[CDignition]

None of the Kimber Pistols fall into "Custom" gun Pricing. A true custom will run you $2k and up...STI, Kimber, Colts, etc..none of em are customs..nor do they come with a custom price tag. If you think $800 bux is a custom gun price, you're fooling yourself.

I have fixed more Springfield's and colts than Kimbers, but have worked on a few...they have tight chamber issues(some folks like a tight chamber for target work, but cheap ammo wont work).. A little reamer and chamber polishing, and all if good....

I redid my Kimber Tactical..it is a nice carry gun, I added some checkering to the slide, and changed out safety, and lockwork. The anodizing is thin from the factory so I Duracoated it...it is VERY nice now..

 

[browningguy]

Kimber probably makes more 1911's than anyone, so more people to report problems.

I believe they also use a lot of MIM parts, good in the right application, but one of the recent reviews I read mentioned the sear and hammer were MIM. I really find that hard to believe but anything is possible. Keep in mind the reviewer made a big deal out of the slide, said Kimser wouldn't use castings because they were inferior to forgings, then in the next paragraph listed all the MIM parts.

 

[Geno]

"...one of the recent reviews I read mentioned the sear and hammer were MIM. I really find that hard to believe but anything is possible."

Yes, the hammer is MIM. Go to the pictures titled "gouged receiver" and look at the hammer. That weird void in the hammer is the MIM mark. A hammer machined from bar stock doesn't have that void.

 

[Kevinch]

Certainly, we should expect our guns to shoot when we buy them & also a level of QC that indicates pride in workmanship.

I will say this though - & hope I'm not flamed (it's only my opinion!) - that if a few pits on the rails & in the bore do not affect the accuracy & operation of the pistol, then I'd probably allow a pass on them. Granted, with everything else Doc has verified was wrong with his gun I don't blame him for pointing them out. I'm saying that if it was my gun, the pits were not rust, & it ran well & shot accurately, I'd probably just accept the pits.

Please don't hurt me.....

 

[Geno]

I would agree save for the fact that this is not a run-of-the-mill pistol. It is a "Custom Shop" pistol. The words "Custom Shop" make the difference.

Oh wow! Hey, Kevinch...you just reminded me of the Pro Raptor's other defect! When I fired it, the bullets' point of impact was approximately 3" to the left of the sights' point of aim at 5 yards. At 25 yards, it was at the papers edge. I had several people try the pistol, including one professional shootist. I was dead-on, and the sights were dead-wrong. Sheesh! I'm glad you posted that. I never would have thought to post that without that prompt to remind me! The sights were already pushed as far as could be adjusted. Again, Dennis asserted, "it was within spec".

Gene

 

[Katana8869]

The follow up....

Kimber picked up the gun on Tuesday morning and had it back here Friday afternoon.

The return invoice listed a whole laundry list of repairs that were done. They consisted of the following:

1. Polished the feed ramp
2. Reamed and polished the chamber
3. Adjusted the extractor
4. Adjusted the slide stop
5. Adjusted the grip safety
6. Replaced the ejector
7. Replaced the recoil spring

When I brought the home, it still felt like it had a weak recoil spring. The slide would come back at least 1/4 to 1/2 inch before there was any resitance from the spring. I am convinced that Kimber is putting the wrong springs in these guns.

While I was going through all of this I ordered a extra power recoil spring that Wolffe makes specifically for the Pro Carry guns. I took the OEM spring out and put the new one in and it was like a different gun.

I have not had the chance to do a formal range session yet, but I did take it out on the property this afternoon and simply blazed off 5 magazines of ammo, shooting to lockback as fast as it would fire, reloading and repeating.

No failures at all so far. (Thank God! ) I am convinced however that would not have been the case with the factory spring.

I'd give Kimber a low "C" for service due only to the fact that they turned it around so fast after they finally picked it up. I would give them a "B" for repair because of the spring issue. Kimber REALLY needs to examine this issue. A undersprung 4" 1911 is not a platform from which anything good will come.

The moral to this story is still a lack of QC on Kimber's part. A product should work the first time. An $800.00 firearm should have every thing listed on the repair list done BEFORE it is shipped. I hope that the Kimber redeems it's self and becomes the carry gun that I bought it to be, but after this kind of a start, there is still a long road ahead to reach that destination.

 

[CDignition]

IF the spring was that short, it likely would not chamber the round...Springs are cheap...do you have any others laying around??..

Kimbers DO have tight chambers, as I stated in my last post...they wear out the reamers and don't swap them out fast enough. I have fixed more than one Raptor.

 

[Katana8869]

Over on 1911.org, someone said that the spring that Kimber is using in the Pro-Carry is basically the same as that used in the Colt Officer's ACP. Being that the Officer's model has a 3 1/2 inch barrel and the Kimber has a 4" barrel that would explain alot.

With the OEM spring that came with the gun as well as the new one that Kimber installed at the shop, there was at least 1/4 to 1/2 an inch of travel before the spring caught any real tension. With that being the case, it seems to me that most of the force bringing the slide home in the last bit of slide travel while feeding a round would be the momemtum of the slide itself.

Combine that with a tight or dirty chamber.... instant FTRB issues. When you read through Pro Carry range reports those letters come up over and over again.

The Wolf XP spring that I installed is made by Wolff for the Pro Carry. It is longer so it holds tension all the way through the cycle. It is also heavier at 23lbs -vs- 22lbs on the OEM spring.

The lady that I talked to at Wolff also told me that it is good for at least 1200 rounds -vs- Kimbers recommended 800 rounds for the standard spring.

The thread about this over at 1911.org that was very helpful. One of the guys over there also reported good results with a Wilson 22# spring that they offer for 4" 1911's. I might pick one of those up to try as well.

If anyone wants to check it out, it is here. It is a long read but very informative.
http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=29584

 

[Hawk]

Thanks for the update. The relationship may have started off rocky but you seem to have gotten some passable CS - orders of magnitude better than some report getting.

Perhaps we're seeing a turn-around?
That would be nice.

 

[.45&TKD]

I don't know if that's because of the heat here in AZ, and the fact that I'm using wax, not oil to lube

You should be using a good gun oil. I use FP-10. While I have used grease on other 1911's, I don't use anything but oil on my Kimber because of the tight tolerances.

 

[springmom]

Glad to hear the problem was resolved. Apart from the long time sitting and waiting, it sounds like they did pretty well with it.

I have a Kimber Ultra Carry II and it has never given me a moment's trouble. I almost didn't buy the thing from all the internet complaints about them, but my Kimber, at least, is super. It's my usual CCW (except part of the time in summertime, when I go "snubbie" for concealment) and it makes me look a lot more talented on the range than I am. Excellent gun.

Springmom

 

[Katana8869]

Thanks Sringmom.

I took it out to the range today and all of the issues seem to be resolved except for the slide locking back on a loaded magazine. I fired 100 rounds of WWB fmj and 50 Remington jhp and had about 5 slide lock malfuntions.

Rather than jump through the whole process with Kimber again, I am just going to run the gun for awhile with the slide lock out of my Trophy Match and see what happens.

I also had 2 rounds nosedive in the magazine and fail to feed. This happened with the two 8 round McCormick magazines that I brought along. (1 malfunction per magazine). This happened at the begining of the range session within the first 50 rounds fired while shooting the WWB. The slide lock issue happend mainly with the stock Kimber magazine, but also happened once with one of the McCormicks.

Anyway, while the gun runs much better than it did, it isn't where it needs to be yet.

 

[.45&TKD]

Sid,

I like FP-10. It has similar dry bonding qualities like Militec, but is also a CLP. FP-10 is also a cleaner and a rust inhibitor, unlike Militec. FP-10 is also thicker than other CLP's, so it stays on better. I think that Kimber was recommending FP-10 at some point as well.

My Kimber TLE is my carry weapon and I'm also in the AZ desert.

 

[Geister]

I never quite understood what I would be getting with a Kimber while spending $700.

 

[Geno]

Yeah...and if you think $700.00 is bad, wait until you put in $1,999.00 and get a POS! :banghead:

 

[glockman19]

My experience with Kimbers has been nothing gut good. I purchased a Raptor II in December and have had NO issues what so ever. Great right out of the box accurate and excellent trigger. So I liked it so much I got a Custom II. The only issues were the sights were slightly off. A trip to the local gunsmith and $10 It was dead on. I just bought an Ultra Raptor to go along with my Raptor and can't wait to shoot it. I'll let you know of any issues after I get it. I can't DROS another handgun until June 10th and won't get to shoot it until the 20th.:banghead: Crazy CA laws? but I can get as many AR's as I can afford.

 

[Katana8869]

Just another update

No more slidestop malfunctions after replacing the OEM one with the one with my Springfield. Just for kicks I also ran the gun with the Springfield's extractor and I had no more feed problems with my magazines.

The reason I tried this is I thought that the Kimber's extractor seemed much too tight and I felt that the extractor might be occasionally pushing the rounds down into the magazine instead of slipping over the cartridge rim. When I checked the extractor tension on the Springfield it was much lighter.

When I took the gun to the range, it ran perfectly. Both of the Kimber parts went in the spare parts box and I have now installed a Wilson Bulletproof slide stop and a Bulletproof extractor in the gun. When I ordered the parts from wilson I also ordered one of their 22# recoil springs that they offer for 4" 1911's just to try out.

The Wilson spring is 2x as long as the OEM spring (as is the Wolff XP spring).
I totally believe that Kimber is using the wrong spring for this gun. Their spring is only half as long as either the Wolff or the Wilson spring and is weak to the point of being ridiculous in comparison.

I have been back to the range twice, once with the Wolff spring and Springfield parts and once with the Wilson spring and the Wilson parts. I have fired a combined total of 600 rounds of combined FMJ, JHP and LSWC reloads using both the Kimber Magazine and the McCormick magazines and have not had 1 single issue.

The gun runs fine now, I just find it irritating that a kitchen table gunsmith has to fix what the so called "custom shop" couldn't figure out for themselves. I have no doubt that if I had sent the gun back again, it would have been just more of the same results (or lack of).

While my gun now seems to run fine, (due mainly to my work and money) Kimber will see no more business from me. This has been nothing but a frustrating experience and I really have not enjoyed being Kimber's field QC tester and repair department.

 

[.45&TKD]

Sid,

You have been having a feeding issue? Not an extraction/ejection issue?

The most common problem with failures to extract/eject is due to an improperly tuned extractor. I've never bought a 1911 that was properly tuned out of the box. Wilson Combat has instructions on extractor tuning that are easy to do. The extractor on my Springfield Loaded was a limp noodle. The gun ran fine with a new Wilson Bullet Proof Extractor.

I've never had a feeding issue.

 

[RonSC]

Although I'm not a Kimber owner it would seem that sending a link to this thread to the powers that be at Kimber just may help. Just a thought FWIW.

Ron

 

[CountGlockula]

Thanks for sharing your Kimber experience Katana8869.

I guess the one thing to look out for when purchasing a Kimber is aftermarket non-Kimber parts.

I was looking into a Kimber, but I'll be much more cautious now.

 

[Geno]

What do you all think of doing a Kimber poll and then contacting Kimber, or dropping the Kimber bellyaching? That would depend on the poll's result of course. Here is what I think (JMHO):

RonSC stated that, "...sending a link to this thread to the powers that be at Kimber just may help." You know, that just may be a good idea. However, given how insolent Dennis was in his dealings with me, I sincerely doubt it will change anything. Go back to the pics that I posted in #27. How could Dennis look at that pistol and assert that is is fine?! The barrel alone should have compelled his attention. But, here is the difference...pride.

I take pride in what I do. What I do reprisents me, and my abilities. Dennis, it seems does not care, and his lack of pride "shines" in that "Un"Professional Raptor. The Sr. Ex. V.P. for Customer Relations knew of the incident, yet the problems persisted, and persist even today. I think it would be interesting to do a poll thread, regarding the percentage of Kimbers coming out with problems...not a gripe thread, a legitimate assess Kimber's status of repairs. It's easy to just bellyache, but that resolves nothing.

Does anyone think it would be beneficial to do a poll to determine the frequency and types of repairs to Kimbers? Then, "armed" with the data of that poll it would be time either 1) to approach the management to ask, what gives?! Or, 2) we would see that the overwhelming majority of Kimbers are staisfactory and drop the issue. Thoughts Re: a Kimber poll?

I am thinking it should adress if the pistols are Series I or Series II, internal extractor or external extractor, and perhaps the size (3", 4" or 5"). Was it reliable? What type problems? It should assess Custom Shop service...quality.

But, the poll should be purely fact...no gripes. Just the facts. Thoughts?


Doc2005

 

[Hawk]

I can't picture Kimber taking anything on the intr4w3b seriously.

Neither would we get much insight into the percentage of Kimbers being shipped with issues. Even gunshop owners can't tell whether someone buying a handgun has high or low expectations, or even if the thing will be used much.

I could picture some constructive ideas coming out of such an exercise, though. I've picked up a few opinions but it would be nice to have a larger sample size - e.g.

"If issues manifest after 500 rounds, type II part wear or damage is probable"

"If your commander length Kimber has 'short spring syndrome', replace with Wolff"

"Don't dremel the feed ramp of an alloy frame in an attempt to fix 3-point jams." (no, I didn't).

"What are the legal ramifications of changing the type II system to Baer's 'drop safety' (extra power firing pin spring and titanium pin)"

"What cleaning issues arise out of dumping the type II parts, does one need a spacer where the frame plunger went?"

...that sort of thing. Then it turns into a "support group" more than a "Kimber bash".

One can ask, but hardly expect, that those reporting issues will report only on their own issues or issues personally observed and so noted. It'd also be nice if those reporting positive experiences would "come clean" with all malfs - in other words no "500 rounds with perfect reliability except for the 4 times I limp-wristed it" - that's 4 malfs in 500 rounds, no point in sugar-coating it.

 

[ruger 100]

kimber pro carry II

I had a kimber pro carry II. It was a pile of crap. The shop were I got it from looked at it and. Said it was fine so 2 days latter I sold it back to them and got an xd 40 and have had no problems. I will never buy a kimber again