Slingshot vs Thumb Release

[1911Tuner]

This question comes up a lot, so I thought a thread may be in order. To slingshot or to thumb the release. The answer lies in studying the angles. I've often said that a careful and logical study of a design can often reveal the designer's intent. So le'ts have a look.

Notice that the rear angle of the slide stop is 90 degrees, as is the corresponding notch in the slide, while the front is roughly 60. Those 60 degree angles act as camming surfaces. Lock the slide manually, and then pull it rearward to see them at work.

Logic will dictate that when the thumb release method is employed against the two 90 degree angles at the rear, wear and radiusing of the corners will be a natural consequence. Over time, the wear at the front will have little effect on the function, while wear at the rear could possibly compromise the locking
operation.

So...What was the intent? It looks like the user was given a choice in the matter, depending on need. If the exercise is casual, and there is no pressing need for a fast return to battery, the slingshot release will prevent undue and unnecessary wear on the related parts. When the need for speed outweighs all other considerations, the thumb release is there.

Careful study of Browning's designs reveal that he was one
sharp cookie.

Counterpoints?

 

[BevrFevr]

I have a counter point

What the hell are you talking about?

-bevr

 

[WJR]

1911Tuner,

Thank you for the insight. I often practice both methods, but find myself using the sling shot more and more.

Does anyone find any great benefit in using one method over the other in training? The only thing I have found is that if I have a failure to feed properly or return to battery, it will occur with the slingshot, not the thumb the release method.

Your posts are great food for thought.

Thank you,

WJR

 

[Chris Rhines]

My method of rapid reloading lends itself to a thumb release. After seating the magazine, my left thumb is resting right on the slide stop. Very fast, surer than a slingshot.

However, this is for me and my guns, maybe not for you and yours. Practice against a timer and see for yourself.

- Chris

 

[1911Tuner]

Chris...

Please re-read...

So...What was the intent? It looks like the user was given a choice in the matter, depending on need. If the exercise is casual, and there is no pressing need for a fast return to battery, the slingshot release will prevent undue and unnecessary wear on the related parts. When the need for speed outweighs all other considerations, the thumb release is there.


Cheers!
T

 

[obiwan1]

Our agency teaches to slingshot only. The theory is that it is fully ambi and will work with any pistol--even pocket pistols without a slide release (like the PPK). This, of course, assumes both hands are functioning. "Officer down" drills are something else.

 

[1911Tuner]

obiwan

Excellent point obiwan! Kudos...

T

 

[stevelyn]

What obiwan1 said goes for our agency too. Also it is the method taught and advocated by the Glock armorer class. The slingshot method helps ensure the slide falls fully into battery when chambering a round from slidelock.

 

[Old Fuff]

1911Tuner is right, particularly in his observations about John Browning. Anyone and everyone who uses the Government Model pistol (in whatever style) should study the histoy of its development starting in 1900. It will soon becomes clear that the inventor knew what he was doing, and when he did something he did it for a reason, usually a good one.

Today, in too many cases we load up our pistols with gadgets and accessories of questionable merit. Then one reads endless posts about how the gun is "unreliable."

1911Tuner has obviously done his homework. If someone doesn't understand what he is saying, some productive study on they're part might be in order.

Oh, and yes .... Browning expected users to usually use the "slingshot" method to drop the slide. "New Technique" users may not want too do this, but they need to understand the consequences of "thumbing the slidestop" and as a result early replacement of that part may be necessary.

 

[Handy]

I would suggest comparing the engagement surfaces of the slide and slide lock with the engagement surfaces or the sear and hammer hooks.


The sear hammer hook engagement is tiny, and receives friction wear on every shot.

The slide release is massive by comparison, and receives wear (if used as a release) once every 7 shots.


Is it really logical to conclude that a slide release should quickly wear out compared to other parts in the gun? If it does, what does that say about the relative construction of those parts?

 

[BigG]

I would like to quote Old Fuff's last post in its entirety as it is classic but this part tickled me as most appropos:

1911Tuner has obviously done his homework. If someone doesn't understand what he is saying, some productive study on they're part might be in order.

That observation is absolutely the final summation on these mechanical operating principles threads. I am going to leave this one lie!

 

[1911Tuner]

Homework

Old Fluff...Seems that you and I may have had the same
homework assignment. It's been a hoot, ain't it?

See if you can find a way to explain to Handy the mechanics of
proper timing during the barrel linkdown. I've been trying to
plow the ocean on that thread...

Take care, and come on up and drink some coffee with an
old man sometime.

Tuner

 

[Old Fuff]

I’ve been working on this particular “homework assignment†for over a half century, and yes, it’s been fun. Some of what I know came from books and the rest from hands-on experience. Of course I’m still learning, and your posts are both illustrative and informative.

As you probably know Colt had some problems with the slide’s slidestop notch penning and rounding at the bottom/rear corner. During World War Two so-called “soft slides†were spot hardened in this area. With the introduction of “hard slides†after the war spot hardening was discontinued, but the problem didn’t go away. I have inspected lots of pistols where the upper/rear corner of the slidestop had rounded off and was matched with a similar rounding of the lower/rear face or corner on the notch in the slide. If and when this happened, and the stop didn’t fully engage in the notch the slide would sometimes go into battery after the last shot rather then lock open. I see posts concerning this “failure to lock open after the last shot†with all kinds of explanations, but seldom any mention of the slidestop/slide notch condition.

Nowadays people install(?) “match barrels†that cam on the slidestop pin to lock into battery, or replace the standard barrel link with a “long one.†When properly done by a skilled and experienced armorer or pistolsmith this usually works, but if it’s done by anyone else the results can be catastrophic. I don’t know how you can explain these things to people who don’t have the foggiest idea of how the pistol works, how it came to be and how Browning and Colt developed it.

Jeff Cooper (who I count among my friends) once told me that they’re were a few (very few) modifications one should make to the pistol, cosmetic modifications, which one could make that wouldn’t interfere with the way the pistol worked but might better adapt it to a particular person, and a long list of things that should NEVER be done. I treasure his advise.

 

[1911Tuner]

Long Time, Old Fluff

I hear ya! It's been nearly 40 years for me. I've seen'em
do everything but stand on their hind legs and bark...
and you'd be surprised at the number of knowledgeable
people who don't have a full handle on how the thing works.

The "Area Hardening" that you mentioned is what caused the
GI frames to be two-toned...but you knew that already...Makes a
lot of folks thing that there's something wrong with the slide,
or that it's a rewelded unit.

Always good to talk to an old hand. Not many of us left.

Take care and keep your powder dry...
Tuner

 

[Penforhire]

One argument against slingshot-under-fire is the POSSIBILITY the stop does not retract as designed. I agree thumbing it causes stop wear but it also positively displaces the stop downward.

Years ago I got into the habit of the slingshot and that habit probably would have carried over into SD situations. I now look back on that training as a mistake.

 

[1911Tuner]

Stress

No question that the thumb release is both more positive and
faster...That's why the checkering or serrations are there.
During casual practice, it's better to pamper the old girl a bit though. Wear on the back of the stop can cause it to fail
to lock the slide...which isn't a big deal for me anyway, because
I stress-fire practice by reloading with the slide in battery.

Cheers!
T

 

[Old Fuff]

I believe, having been told by a well-known expert in the field and former high-ranking Marine officer - that one should practice exchanging a loaded magazine for an empty one while the last round is still in the chamber. This makes dropping the slide by any method a moot point. But gee, what do I know. The Old Fuff will now take his Teddy Bear and go sit in the corner ...

 

[firestar]

All the competition shooters I have seen use the thumb release because it is much quicker. It is good enough for them so how can I argue? I figure they put that lever on the gun for SOME reason! Why is this even a question?

 

[Rival]

Originally posted by Handy: I would suggest comparing the engagement surfaces of the slide and slide lock with the engagement surfaces or the sear and hammer hooks.


The sear hammer hook engagement is tiny, and receives friction wear on every shot.

The slide release is massive by comparison, and receives wear (if used as a release) once every 7 shots.


Is it really logical to conclude that a slide release should quickly wear out compared to other parts in the gun? If it does, what does that say about the relative construction of those parts?

The sear and hammer are made to be tougher than slide. The slide is much softer, and wears out easier.

 

[1911Tuner]

Fluff!

The Old Hand nailed it. The detachable box magazine gives
us the ability to reload the piece on a hot chamber.
I've always looked at an empty pistol with a locked slide
as a stoppage, and nothing more. Stoppages in a life/death
thing can get you dead...but as has been oft-noted by
those of us who have seen the elephant:

"Anything that you do can get you killed...and that includes
doing the right thing."

Semper Fi!
Tuner

 

[Chris Rhines]

1911Tuner -

First off, I should state up front that my pistol of choice is the CZ-75. I don't at present own a 1911.

I use the slide release to drop the slide both 'for-real' and during training with dummy rounds. Simple reason - do the same thing in training as I would like to do in a fight. Any additional wear that comes from this practice, I'm prepared to deal with.

As for reloading on a hot chamber - I have no illusions about my ability to count rounds in a gunfight.

- Chris

 

[Old Fuff]

Well the Old Fuff is going to roil the waters again. Those that have one of Mr. Browning’s Government Model pistols are invited to conduct a little experiment. First remove the magazine and make sure the chamber is clear.

Now, pull back the slide and lock it with the slidelock. Look through the ejection port and notice the distance between the back of the magazine well and the breechface. Next, pull the slide all of the way back and again note the distance between the magazine well and the breechface. If you don’t have a bunch of plastic do-dads on the recoil spring guide you’ll see there is a difference.

When you fire the piece the slide goes all the way back (or at least it should) and then “runs up†and boots the cartridge in the butt to drive it forward. When you drop the slide with the slidestop you eliminate some of this run-up and the cartridge is more “pushed†then “booted†– and this can slightly increase the chance of a failure-to-feed or stovepipe.

In Browning’s day the drill called for the slide to be locked back, a loaded magazine then inserted, and the slide pulled fully to the rear of it’s travel and let go. We call that “slingshoting.â€

When practicing I make a point of reloading before the last round is fired. But if I goof (yup, it can happen) I tip the pistol to the left and pull back the slide with the left hand rather then drop it with the slidestop. Then as the slide goes forward I turn it back to vertical while regripping and pick up the sights. I like to think I don’t have to do this very often.

 

[9x19]

Browning's day called for the use of FMJ ammo too... but most everything evolves... though perhaps old-hand 1911 tuners are exempt?

One must ponder the possibility...

 

[Ryder]

Interesting thread

I haven't had the 1911 all that long but loading and unloading as often as is required for dry fire practice and cleaning was showing me that 45acp was really susceptable to bullet setback within the case from hitting the feedramp.

Using either the slide release or the slingshot method didn't matter. It was bad (I've got a 23# spring in my little monster). I was getting obvious bulge rings on the case where the base of the bullet resides and it didn't take a micrometer to tell me they were becoming progressively shorter after each cycling into the chamber.

What I came up with to solve that problem was a modified slingshot method. I pull on the slide but don't release it to freely travel home. I hang onto the slide and follow it forward with the weight of my hand. Not exactly what I'd call slow motion chambering, but nowhere near the velocity of a freely released slide. Just buffering it a tad.

It took a bit of practice to make this work smoothly but I seat the cartridge into the chamber reliably now without bullet setback problems.

Of course I would not think this of any worth in a confrontation during tactical reloads, but it's a good deal for around the house or at the range.

 

[1911Tuner]

Exempt?

9x19..

Yes, things evolve, but sometimes not in the right direction.
Noted by all the reliability issues that come up on the 1911
pistol. If we keep in mind the engineering rule 1:

"Whenever something is changed, three other things must
be changed to compensate for it."

Not only bullet shape, but the time/pressure curve of the ammunition is figured in to the mix. Add to that the early
release magazine design that allows for hollowpoints and
semi-wadcutters can sometimes bring on other woes.
Magazine follower design also factors in...especially the
ones that don't have the dimple on the follower. 8-round
magazines are also out ot the loop.
The new-style magazines sometimes release the round too early and too abruptly...and the missing dimple can't control the
last round in the magazine adequately to prevent problems.

I can provide a more detailed description, but it will require
keeping an open mind and a logical approach in order to
understand. Just keep one thing in mind as you look at it...
Whenever something falls very far outside design parameters,
problems with functional reliability will evolve too. It's
inevitable.

So many people have been trying to outsmart JMB for so long,
they really believe that they have.

Regards...
Tuner